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[In Exile]

I don't necessarily think it directly ties in to revenue, the movement towards fewer activated abilities has been going on for quite some time especially in the MMO genre, so I think they have chosen to follow that design to make the game a bit more mainstream and thus accessible to more players. Of course those design decisions from a developer/publisher point of view are then hopefully translated into increased revenue. But I really do think their main agenda has been to make the game more mainstream; probably also the reason the sidequests we see in the gameplay previews have very little interaction between the Inquisitor and the questgiver (mostly a "we need this" and then a "Goodbye") as this kind of fast guidance to next combat is probably more sought after by the majority of gamers.

 

Which I can't say I'm a fan of those type of conversations, at the end of the day I always thought zots were completely wasted on a random NPC telling you about the history of the plague-free dire bunnies he wants you to skin so he can make some boots. 

[Kage]

I find it hilarious how people in this thread seem to love getting hung up on semantics about the OP's phrasing of "our fears."  Even if OP meant "our" as in "the whole DA fanbase," he obviously doesn't speak for anyone but himself.  I can say "everybody hates x" and anyone with a brain knows the actual meaning of my statement is that I hate x...because I'm the one talking.  People express sentiments like this all the time.  But besides that, OP could have meant "our" as in "DA fans who value the tactics feature?"  As in, people who have been worried about this feature being removed or diluted.

 

So before you post a comment in here, ask yourself if it's relevant to the actual discussion or just extraneous forum noise.

 

OMG thank you.

I have been ignoring all those posts because I dont understand the point in them. I have said a lot of times "We love to sleep", and never got the answer "there is somebody in the world that does not love to sleep".

 

People just need to learn social and communication skills. "We" is not "All Humanity". Given a context, it means a group of people (it can even be 2).

 

I think it is pretty obvious I was refering to the fans in the forums that were intrigued by the absense of tactics in all the footage, that wanted to know how they worked, that feared that they had removed that feature... There was a ton of conversations about it in other thread that apparently got erased.

 

Do those people go to the Cullen thread, see a fangirl saying "We saw footage of Cullen, we can now die at peace!! :D", and answer something like "I dont like Cullen, dont say WE"? What a way to break the mood!!!

[Kage]

Here is what I talked about BARRIER and the absence of if-then rules:

Time 4:50. (The video has 1 straight up hour of gameplay, beware of spoilers)

 

It is a perfect example. The AI uses barrier when the controlled character is looting iron, just because there are enemies nearby. That are not even attacking you. So when you actually get to the fight, you have no barrier, and it is on cooldown.

 

OMG I will be using manually barrier, it is going to be super tedious...

[Star fury]

Here is what I talked about BARRIER and the absence of if-then rules:

Time 4:50. (The video has 1 straight up hour of gameplay, beware of spoilers)

It is a perfect example. The AI uses barrier when the controlled character is looting iron, just because there are enemies nearby. That are not even attacking you. So when you actually get to the fight, you have no barrier, and it is on cooldown.

OMG I will be using manually barrier, it is going to be super tedious...

And some shills ahem, I mean honest people claimed that AI in DAI would be so smart, you wouldn't need tactics at all.

[freche]

So that means that we actually have to play the game in harder difficulties than set the AI to play it for us
That sounds good. I don't judge someone who want to have an easier casual playthrough but that's why difficulty settings exist. Also what's the point of having a playable party if you re not playing it?

Is it so hard to grasp that people prefer different things?
I for one really liked the tactic system and would love to see it evolved. Even with the tactics it come situations where you need to take direct control. What the tactic helps with is making the characters not behave like husks when you are not controlling them it also helps with repetitive tasks that quickly can get boring.
Ohh combat starts lets select Anders and cast haste and now select Hawke use Cleave for the 15242 time". Why not automate it if that is what you always do every single fight.
Or "Anders your friend is dying maybe you should heal him? Sorry too stupid to do that without help!". "
"Ohh thus tme you where dying and you didn't get a heal, but your backpack is full of health potions maybe you shold have used one of them? Sorry no one told me I was allowed to use them so I died instead!".

[Paul E Dangerously]

Is it so hard to grasp that people prefer different things?
I for one really liked the tactic system and would love to see it evolved. Even with the tactics it come situations where you need to take direct control. What the tactic helps with is making the characters not behave like husks when you are not controlling them it also helps with repetitive tasks that quickly can get boring.
Ohh combat starts lets select Anders and cast haste and now select Hawke use Cleave for the 15242 time". Why not automate it if that is what you always do every single fight.
Or "Anders your friend is dying maybe you should heal him? Sorry too stupid to do that without help!". "
"Ohh thus tme you where dying and you didn't get a heal, but your backpack is full of health potions maybe you shold have used one of them? Sorry no one told me I was allowed to use them so I died instead!".

 

Especially with the way cross-class attacks work in DA2 onward. If someone's used Ability X to inflict Status Y on Enemy Z, I don't want to have to play NPC shuffle just to use the proper ability in order to hit a combo every single time.

[Gnoster]

Especially with the way cross-class attacks work in DA2 onward. If someone's used Ability X to inflict Status Y on Enemy Z, I don't want to have to play NPC shuffle just to use the proper ability in order to hit a combo every single time.

 

This is a great point. Cross class combos and setting these up in tactics, so Merrill had chain lightning ready and off cooldown for when Aveline or warrior Hawke staggered an enemy, were precisely why effective use of tactics made it possible to only control Hawke on Nightmare difficulty (a party of 2-handed warrior Hawke, Merrill, Anders, and Varric could blow through any opposition if specced right with tactics set up). Standard AI tactics had them spam abilities or none at all. I agree with the barrier point shown in the preview video, generally the barrier is at 50% or lower once distance to the enemy has been closed.

[mat21]

Has anyone else noticed how at the top of the behaviours tab quoted page one of the thread there is a tickbox at the top labelled enable ai tactics which is currently selected.

Perhaps with this selected you get the basic behaviours seen in case you find tactics tedious but if it is unselected the behaviours turn into a proper tactics menu as if ai tactics are disabled surely this only leaves manual tactics? In mayb however just be being hopeful.

[LexXxich]

I'm, on the other hand, sure that this checkbox is just to make AI turn off completely.

Anyway, all these questions can be answered by single devpost. How many pages a thread on an issue needs to grow before getting one?

[Galaxy_Siege]

Here is what I talked about BARRIER and the absence of if-then rules:

Time 4:50. (The video has 1 straight up hour of gameplay, beware of spoilers)

 

It is a perfect example. The AI uses barrier when the controlled character is looting iron, just because there are enemies nearby. That are not even attacking you. So when you actually get to the fight, you have no barrier, and it is on cooldown.

 

OMG I will be using manually barrier, it is going to be super tedious...

Um did you not see how close they were to the enemy? He literally engaged them a few seconds after the barrier was cast. That is exactly what I would want the AI to do since barrier is a preemptive spell. 

 

People are really grasping for straws to find a reason to ****** and moan.

[xkg]

I'm, on the other hand, sure that this checkbox is just to make AI turn off completely.

Anyway, all these questions can be answered by single devpost. How many pages a thread on an issue needs to grow before getting one?

 

What I noticed is, some silly, unimportant questions get answered in matter of hours, sometimes even minutes.

When it comes to serious ones, devs are nowhere to be seen, or in rare cases there is some vague answer at best.

[Almostfaceman]

LOL  "Thats what the strategy camera view is for" ??? 

 

Why should we not be able to give commands (in exactly the same way) to our companions in the regular cam, regardless of the difficulty?

 

And to scrap it for CPU/RAM req's would possibly be the lamest excuse I've ever seen. 

 

In a party-based RPG!  Haha

 

Here's the thing.  Tactics in this kind of a game should be transparent, in that if you have to constantly attend to them, they don't work well.  The joke that some of the genius's around here like to spout regarding, 'they want to sit back and let the game play itself for them', is missing the point.  Good tactics *should* allow you to get through most random encounters without having to pause.  Tougher, larger engagements and boss fights however should require more than just "straight tactics", which means pausing and giving specific commands (in or out of Tac Cam) to each teammate - very time consuming obviously.

 

We apparently aren't even getting the straight tactics, however.  Which needs official comment, sooner rather than later.

 

Emphasis added. 

 

I really haven't played any game, ever, that the friendly AI actually helped me much. It would come in handy if it did, I suppose, but it's something I'm used to "dealing" with. So, I think your standard, in my experience, is unrealistic. I play this game expecting (unless I'm on easy) to have to give my team guidance so they all perform optimally. That's part of the fun. 

 

I would say that most random encounters get easy because of player skill, not because of any great capacity on the team AI's part. Again, my experience with gaming. 

[Paul E Dangerously]

Emphasis added. 

 

I really haven't played any game, ever, that the friendly AI actually helped me much. It would come in handy if it did, I suppose, but it's something I'm used to "dealing" with. So, I think your standard, in my experience, is unrealistic. I play this game expecting (unless I'm on easy) to have to give my team guidance so they all perform optimally. That's part of the fun. 

 

I would say that most random encounters get easy because of player skill, not because of any great capacity on the team AI's part. Again, my experience with gaming. 

 

For you, yes, but not all of us want to micromanage every single thing that every single NPC does when you can, and have been able to automate it to a degree by scripting. I should not have to gamble on the AI realizing it's at terribly low health and having to chug a potion, because it won't do that in DAO/DAA/DA2 unless you specifically tell it to.

 

Hell, the IE games let you get rid of some of the more annoying micromanagement, too. Rogues could do crazy things like disarm traps once spotted and pick locks once the PC clicks on a container that they can't open. Without having to stop, switch, do it, switch back, and continue on.

[Amaror]

Um did you not see how close they were to the enemy? He literally engaged them a few seconds after the barrier was cast. That is exactly what I would want the AI to do since barrier is a preemptive spell. 

 

People are really grasping for straws to find a reason to ****** and moan.

 

Did you not see that the barrier ran out literally the second he actually got in the fight. The spell the Ai cast was completely useless, because it protected the units while they didn't need protection.

[Pancreatic Beta Cell]

Did you not see that the barrier ran out literally the second he actually got in the fight. The spell the Ai cast was completely useless, because it protected the units while they didn't need protection.

 

In another instance @ 52:36 in the video, barrier gets casted not on Cassandra and she dies.  The fact that you can't even set priorities on who to cast spells and abilities on is disappointing.  

 

This is also not simply about micromanaging every battle although that is a huge component.  Getting down tactics was always part of the progression I personally felt in the game.  In addition it allowed you to let the battle flow more smoothly for immersive reasons and still have the challenge at higher difficulties.  Sure you could always play at a lower diffculty, and focus on one character, but that takes away a lot from the game in other aspects (ie items progression is not as necessary). Tactics were a big selling point for me even after the criticism that DA2 got and I still really like it because of the tactics.        

[cindercatz]

Has anyone else noticed how at the top of the behaviours tab quoted page one of the thread there is a tickbox at the top labelled enable ai tactics which is currently selected.

Perhaps with this selected you get the basic behaviours seen in case you find tactics tedious but if it is unselected the behaviours turn into a proper tactics menu as if ai tactics are disabled surely this only leaves manual tactics? In mayb however just be being hopeful.

I wrote a long post and just got lost with how badly what we've seen with the behaviours (messes up realtime tac cam mode and companions in realtime action mode) combined with the damn trigger held attack thing (ruins third person play with no autoattack) would just kill my playstyle and sap the fun out.

 

So.. I really hope you're right, or without aa, combat's ****ed for me. I'll just end up sticking it on easy and watching it play itself at that rate. I'll just move 'em around and let it run. (so I don't have to pause just to use the right special ad nauseum)

[Almostfaceman]

For you, yes, but not all of us want to micromanage every single thing that every single NPC does when you can, and have been able to automate it to a degree by scripting. I should not have to gamble on the AI realizing it's at terribly low health and having to chug a potion, because it won't do that in DAO/DAA/DA2 unless you specifically tell it to.

 

Hell, the IE games let you get rid of some of the more annoying micromanagement, too. Rogues could do crazy things like disarm traps once spotted and pick locks once the PC clicks on a container that they can't open. Without having to stop, switch, do it, switch back, and continue on.

 

I seriously doubt that the tactics will be so poor as to not be able to chug potions. Pretty much everything you mention here is convenience - and even that stuff can be faulty. It's been more than once that a party members health is falling so rapidly I have to manually make it take another potion. What I'm talking about it tactical fighting AI. Everything I've run into needs some help if you want to do more than the basic swing or shoot or know when your shot is blocked. I'm seldom in the mood to full on micro-manage. I just need something good enough to let me be the star as I get used to the game mechanics then start kicking butt. 

[cindercatz]

Emphasis added. 

 

I really haven't played any game, ever, that the friendly AI actually helped me much. It would come in handy if it did, I suppose, but it's something I'm used to "dealing" with. So, I think your standard, in my experience, is unrealistic. I play this game expecting (unless I'm on easy) to have to give my team guidance so they all perform optimally. That's part of the fun. 

 

I would say that most random encounters get easy because of player skill, not because of any great capacity on the team AI's part. Again, my experience with gaming. 

That might end up being the case here, but I hope not. Being able to set up smart ai with almost equally powerful allies, and then focussing on tactically manipulating and adapting to the battlefield is what was great about BioWare's party combat, up until DA2 because of the terrible encounter and arena design. Exception being Mass Effect where you basically just played your shooter game character.

 

So I play DA in part to program my own mostly self reliant party and do something totally different. I want to play the high level real time strategy game. I don't want it to feel like a generic action/rpg, like everything else out there. I was hoping to play this more like Total War, since the trigger attack thing pretty much nixes the third person combat for  me. Lack of behavioural control would make everything worse. I never ever set up my AI to just attack my target or another character's target, just for starters. Or use specials based on mana remaining, etc.

[Brogan]

Somebody needs to start a new thread pointing specifically to the footage Kage indicated and ask for some official explanation on the exact way these tactics utilize the abilities. There needs to be some accountability if they are indeed doing away with the 'if...then' rules.

Because I can guarantee most will simply turn them off if they are that poorly implemented. Which is just another form of them removing the option from the game.

[Ashevajak]

Well, I wont lie, this is disappointing news for me.

 

I'm still willing to see how it works out in game, since it looks like the entire combat system has been changed quite a bit and I don't like jumping to hasty conclusions...but a lot of the fun I derived from DAO and DA2's combat was coming up with ridiculously in detail and crafted tactics to cover most contingencies.  I actually thought that was one of the better points of DA2, the detail in which you could go into in creating "if > then" character commands to execute cross class combos, aid allies or deal with significant battlefield threats (mages, assassins) effectively.  I had hoped DA:I would further refine and expand on that system, but apparently not.

[Tielis]

Here is what I talked about BARRIER and the absence of if-then rules:

(video)

 

It is a perfect example. The AI uses barrier when the controlled character is looting iron, just because there are enemies nearby. That are not even attacking you. So when you actually get to the fight, you have no barrier, and it is on cooldown.

 

OMG I will be using manually barrier, it is going to be super tedious...

 

Holy crap, that's horrible.  Horrible.  

 

Basically all my companions are as dumb as a box of rocks and I have to tell them exactly how to fight.  How is that good storytelling?

 

Yep, last BioWare game I ever buy.  I actually bought into the idea that they were learning from DA2's failure.  Silly me.

[spnccarman]

God people are so over dramatic.

[Vaan]

God people are so over dramatic.

 

My thoughts exactly.

[LonewandererD]

God people are so over dramatic.

Come one, come all to the BSN Theatre, where everything is a Greek tragedy and our actors are marvellous at juggling fire.

 

Seriously though I was huge fan of the tactics system for DA:O, especially since it seems to have adopted it from FF12 another favourite of mine, so seeing it diminished like this is a serious hit to me. Still excited for the game though

 

-D-

[Ferretinabun]

God people are so over dramatic.

Yes it is easy to get carried away with disappointing news for something you had high hopes for. But at the same time, this IS a serious and significant step backwards. We have a party combat game, and yet now our only ways to control the party combat is to issue every character's orders manually (which is incredibly tedious) or just leave it up to the demonstrably flawed AI.

 

This is not a petty grievance.