760 réponses à ce sujet

[Fidite Nemini]

Not something I'm looking forward to. I greatly enjoyed tweaking companion tactics to built them into an effective fighting force without me having to babysit them at every odd second during combat. Later I downloaded the "Advanced Tactics" mod for DA:O and spent hours in the tactics menu to tweak their behaviour to a point when AI controlled, they'd fight effectively, using combination attacks, switching targeting when necessary and overall being so effective that by the time I unlocked most of their abilities and enough tactic slots, I'd hardly ever had to move my Warden during combat because they were doing all the fighting (on hardcore difficulty).

 

I had already sorely missed that modded ability in DAII, but if DAI really comes with NO tactics we can set, then I will be VERY disappointed indeed. Especially when paired with a more cautious playstyle due to the no-autoheals after combat, babysitting each companion for every fight to reduce unnecessary damage is going to be a chore that could have easily been avoided.

 

Not good.

[Meltemph]

Tactics were never a substitute for playing the game on the higher difficulties (imo).  They just allowed us to be relatively confident that our party members wouldn't completely bork things the minute we switched to another character.  For me, spending time crafting advanced tactics was part of playing the game.  I liked playing more as a strategist than a field commander.  I get why others feel differently, though.       

I dunno, I always found the tactic choices to not be very "advanced", pretty simplistic really, and the advanced ones were more because the AI was too stupid to understand when to deactivate something, imo. I'm HOPING the AI is much smarter in this one, but I wont hold my breath. The gambit system in FFXII(Even though I liked this FF a lot) and this was never something I've been a huge fan of personally. 

[Itkovian]

I have to admit, I loved the DAO and DA2 tactics system. Something of the coder in me enjoyed crafting a nice tactic setup that allowed me to focus on my main character.

 

That said, I think I'll be fine with this setup. My main worry is companions blowing cooldowns at the wrong time (like firing a barrier when I'm the only one who can be barriered), and those can be turned off.

 

Beyond that, what has me wondering is how well tanking will work without a complex tactics system, especially given there's a lot of "reaction" needed in tanking (to gain guard and the likes).

 

I guess we'll see.

[AlanC9]

The really odd thing about this is that now we've got two new gameplay elements that seem to lead in opposite directions. The 8-active-ability limit makes sense for a game where you're never pausing, the worse AI works best if you're pausing all the time. Exactly how are they expecting the game to be played?

[Scoutyo]

I'm assuming the AI is a lot more intelligent in this game, so the requirement for tactics isnt as needed. Truth be told, the tactics did things, that quite frankly(imo) the AI should have been smart enough to figure out in the the 1st place. It was annoying having to specify using walking bomb in large groups, how can the AI not automatically understand this?

 

I agree with you, there.  If the default AI (particularly the tanking AI) is better this time, tactics won't be quite as necessary.  And if the AI automatically places AoE attacks and buffs (semi-)optimally, a lot of the need for the previous games' tactics options will be obviated.  

 

But I'm still curious about things like how the AI will prioritize who to drop barrier on (Tank first?  Wounded characters first?).  And I wonder if the AI will automatically go for cross-class combos (potentially ruining a specific combo the player was trying to set up) or never go for cross class combos (making the party far less efficient without a great deal of micromanagement).  

[Shechinah]

Because some AIs just wants to watch mobs explode.

[Wulfram]

I'm guessing they must have found that people weren't really using the old Tactics system and so have gone for something a bit more accessible.  But as someone who used the Tactics quite a lot in DA2, this is disappointing.

[tmp7704]

I really hope you are not seeking a Macro to play the game for you.
Some tactics are fine, but DA - at higher difficulty is all micromanagement, and that is FUN.

Too many If - then and you could just watch some youtubers do their magic.

What is FUN actually differs from person to person.

For some, it may be extensive micromanagement like you say. For others, it may be ability to write complex sets of behaviours which cause AI party members act as if they have a modicum of actual AI, then sitting back and watching if their work can survive test of actual combat. For yet others, it may be some combination or middle ground between these two.

DA used to allow either of these play styles. It's unfortunate if that's changed.

[Meltemph]

I agree with you, there.  If the default AI (particularly the tanking AI) is better this time, tactics won't be quite as necessary.  And if the AI automatically places AoE attacks and buffs (semi-)optimally, a lot of the need for the previous games' tactics options will be obviated.  

 

But I'm still curious about things like how the AI will prioritize who to drop barrier on (Tank first?  Wounded characters first?).  And I wonder if the AI will automatically go for cross-class combos (potentially ruining a specific combo the player was trying to set up) or never go for cross class combos (making the party far less efficient without a great deal of micromanagement).  

Ya, the lack of tactics only has me worried that their AI isnt smart enough to handle such a thing. HOPEFULLY they take advantage of their new engine, but I do have my doubts. But I would rather have them have the pressure of having to make AI intelligent vs giving them a pass(that is how I look at the gambit system, personally, a pass for dumb ai)for really stupid AI.

 

I am hoping this means the AI is much more intelligent, but I do understand the concern of people who are worried the AI will be too stupid to make the proper decisions.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The detailed Tactics system in DA2 was one of that game's best features. It was a clear improvement over DAO's.

How are players supposed to play in real time now? They'll have basically no control over what the other party members do.

This, if true, is terrible news.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Ya, the lack of tactics only has me worried that their AI isnt smart enough to handle such a thing. HOPEFULLY they take advantage of their new engine, but I do have my doubts. But I would rather have them have the pressure of having to make AI intelligent vs giving them a pass(that is how I look at the gambit system, personally, a pass for dumb ai)for really stupid AI.

I am hoping this means the AI is much more intelligent, but I do understand the concern of people who are worried the AI will be too stupid to make the proper decisions.

It's just scripting. What the Tactics system let us do before was do the scripting ourselves, rather than rely on the game to do it.

Now we're back in 1998, where we have to let the game do it, or take manual control, with nothing in between.

They promoted the improved Tactics in DA2 as if they thought it was a good feature. What happened?

[Fidite Nemini]

The detailed Tactics system in DA2 was one of that game's best features. It was a clear improvement over DAO's.

How are players supposed to play in real time now? They'll have basically no control over what the other party members do.

This, if true, is terrible news.

 

Well, there is always the slight chance that companion AIs will be decent. However given BioWare's track record of borderline suicidal companion AI, I'm not holding my breath on that happening.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Well, there is always the slight chance that companion AIs will be decent. However given BioWare's track record of borderline suicidal companion AI, I'm not holding my breath on that happening.

I don't care if the companion AI is decent. I want to be the one making the decisions. And I'd like to be able to do it without having to issue each order directly.

[Meltemph]

It's just scripting. What the Tactics system let us do before was do the scripting ourselves, rather than rely on the game to do it.

Now we're back in 1998, where we have to let the game do it, or take manual control, with nothing in between.

They promoted the improved Tactics in DA2 as if they thought it was a good feature. What happened?

The scripting was pretty straight forward though. All the spells I told the AI to do, should have been common sense. By the sounds of it, we get to choose the frequency and some other stuff, so we have some control on how they use their abilities. The AI at this stage in the game should be able to figure it out, also in 1998, the AI were morons, unless they were all fighter types. We will see how it goes, but if I had a choice between very intelligent AI that knows when to use abilities vs a tactics system where I'm basically doing the same thing, I'd choose the AI. The gambit/tactics system never impressed me, personally. I'd be fine if they kept it, but I would prefer the ai be smarter. For instance I dont know how many times anders died in my games in DA2 before I just gave up and stopped expecting him to deactivate his ability so I could heal him. I just started doing it myself.

[Kleon]

Another thing to add to the list of terrible design decisions. 

 

But we can change curtains in Skyhold?

[Tielis]

This sucks big time.    My favorite part of the previous games was designing tactics and then watching them play out.  

 

Now they've turned this game into a Real Time Stress game.  

[Kleon]

I remember setting tactcics in Origins for Wynne. Seeing  her petrify and shatter some enemy on her own and healing like a boss or use glyphs to protect herself and the rest of the party felt epic. Like she was  an actual party member, rather than baby that needs sitting. 

[Gtdef]

Tactics is the only thing that makes DA combat stand out. Everything else is boring, familiar and dated. Take it away and we have the most boring and uninspired 150 hour game in existence.

 

And there is no such thing as good AI. There isn't a single game that does it well. It's the combat asymmetry that makes the AI seem smarter than it is. Forcing it on the player party, removing buff spells and big stacked aoes is a recipe for failure.

[Indomito]

Not really a big issue for me. On previous games i never used too much, i always prefer micromanage with pause, or not pause at all.

Never found tactics very deep, just use a few of them.

[Vaan]

Tactics is the only thing that makes DA combat stand out. Everything else is boring, familiar and dated. Take it away and we have the most boring and uninspired 150 hour game in existence.

 

You should consider canceling your preorder then.

[rapscallioness]

I guess they want you to do all this via tactical cam now? Ack. I really, really, enjoyed setting up tactics, then letting my companions have it in the actual combat. I don't like babysitting the companions.

 

And even if the AI are smarter, I just liked the challenge of setting up a great gameplan and seeing it play out successfully in real time. Without pausing all the time and switching back and forth between characters.

 

It's not a deal breaker, but I am very sad to see that gone.

[Star fury]

It's par for the course with other limitations, not really surprised.

 

 

I really hope you are not seeking a Macro to play the game for you.
Some tactics are fine, but DA - at higher difficulty is all micromanagement, and that is FUN.

Too many If - then and you could just watch some youtubers do their magic.

There is a thing called choice. Many people liked tinkering with tactics, on higher difficulties too. When my party destroys enemies with my carefully made tactics almost without micromanagement, it's very satisfying and fun. Good tactics worked even on nightmare in DA:O and I rarely had to interfere.

 

 

Pretty big surprise to me.

 

Well, I never got huge mileage out of tactics anyway, but I imagine the people who once had starry eyed idealism about expanding tactics to make the whole party run on carefully designed autopilot, either have already or will soon be smashed against the sheer cliffs of disappointment.

I don't understand your heavy sarcasm, a lot of people play Bioware games for tactical combat and limitation of party tactics is going to frustrate them.

[Xeyska]

So "Tactics" is where we set up our abilities in the skill bar, and "Behavior" is four AI script options that control potions, mana/stamina and targeting.

 

Oh boy.

[MeerMusik]

A little disappointing. I am hoping the AI works better this time. But on the other hand: Bioware and AI is like Bioware and Hair Styles / Quality. Another of those things we will see how it works, when we finally play the game.

 

Question:

Will watch the Video later as I am on the go: So:

Has anyone seen, if we can still set our Followers State to Defensive, Aggessive etc.? I hope they have not removed that thing too.

Modifié par MeerMusik, 03 novembre 2014 - 06:00 .

[10K]

Well I guess this means I'm going to actually have to micromanage on my nightmare playthrough, sigh...that's going to be very dull. I hope atleast the AI is smart enough to detonate cross class combos, if not micromanaging will just become even more monotonous.