760 réponses à ce sujet

[errantknight]

 

Don't be silly. This has nothing to do with EA.

 

 

Something that came to my mind today: "this is the Dragon Age game we always wanted to make." Apparently, the DA team never actually wanted tactics in their game. Apparently, the DA team never actually wanted level-up attributes in their game. Apparently, the DA team never actually wanted auto-attack in their games.

 

The more you know.

 

 

I think I better stop reading this thread before it makes me permanently sad. The more I know, indeed....

 

Wait....we can't control our stats?

[tmp7704]

Except that in the recent prologue reveal on twich the devs said when enemies have a condition that a companion can exploit the AI AUTOMATICALLY uses said ability. So not you no longer need to tell the AI to do it with a tactics entry because the basic AI system does it without the use of a tactics entry. ERGO you have the same capability as before without the need of using tactics.

Does this basic AI system have capability of say, doing something as simple as prioritizing either defensive moves or the cross-class combo move(s) depending on the health of your team? Can you tell it not to waste the cross-class combo cooldowns on targets which are near death and would die from the autoattack in a moment anyway?

Because you can do it with tactics, but how do you set it with the new "use this move/don't use this move/(always) use this move more often than others" toggles?

[Gothfather]

That misses the point.

really?

 

So in the past you HAD to use tactics so that the AI would even know to use a power against a conditioned enemy and now the AI automatically knows to react to the condition misses the point?

 

You don't NEED to get the AI to use the tactic because ALL AIs have that tactic preset. Ergo its not needed to add into the tactics section because the ai already has the tactic. If the AI didn't respond to conditioned enemies I'd see the concern but the AI does respond so why are they needed?

[Gothfather]

Well people play the game and see how the AI responds to situations and then come back and tell the developers what needs tweaking when you have PLAYED the game and are making INFORMED comments on actual experience not on speculation.

 

 

Speculation is not that valueable and critiques based on speculation are worth even less.

[tmp7704]

If the AI didn't respond to conditioned enemies I'd see the concern but the AI does respond so why are they needed?

It's pointed out in the reply right above: because there's more than one way for the AI to respond, and AI can't read the player's mind to find out which response that particular player prefers. It needs to be told.

You were able to tell it that stuff before, now the game largely operates only based on what it was told by the dev(s) in charge of the default/built-in presets.

[Morroian]

really?

 

So in the past you HAD to use tactics so that the AI would even know to use a power against a conditioned enemy and now the AI automatically knows to react to the condition misses the point?

 

You don't NEED to get the AI to use the tactic because ALL AIs have that tactic preset. Ergo its not needed to add into the tactics section because the ai already has the tactic. If the AI didn't respond to conditioned enemies I'd see the concern but the AI does respond so why are they needed?

 

Still missing.

[Zatche]

If the AI didn't respond to conditioned enemies I'd see the concern but the AI does respond so why are they needed?

Because then the game is playing for me an aspect of the game that I want to play. I don't want the AI to decide what ability to use and when. I want to choose.

I'm the decider!

[Augustus Tirion]

Still missing.

Not missing the point, just intentionally ignoring it so they can troll more.

[Gothfather]

Because then the game is playing for me an aspect of the game that I want to play. I don't want the AI to decide what ability to use and when. I want to choose.

I'm the decider!

Then tell the AI not to use any of their abilities and then tell them to do it in the tactical camera.
 

You have control, you can limit the AI significantly, hell limit it so that it has zero say or you can trust it.

 

You either have to treat the game like you are everyone in the party and take total control or treat the companions like they are their own "person" whom you don't have total control over. Give them general guildlines? sure, Tell them to hold off abilities for special situation to be executed on your command? Yep thats possible. Automatically micromanage them? No because that isn't realistic in a command setting.

 

You might not like that but until you PLAY the game and EXPERIENCE the tools given to you with the companion AI you don't know if this design is good or bad you are just SPECULATING.

[Solid_Altair]

I think that video sums it up nicely. I think this system will work well. It seems the Devs are taking care of some of the obvious 'ifs and thens' for us. This is good, I think. Along with 'disable, enable and prioritize', hoepfully we won't need to do too much micro-managing ourselves. If the targetting parameters are also sufficient, we might be able to get everyone to do what we want, while we micro the character who is the hardest to be told what we want from them.

 

The ide is that the ifs and thens can only do so much and might be too annoying to keep changing. So they were made somewhat automatic and when they're not enough you go ahead and micro.

 

This seems like an improvemente very similar to what happened form FFXII to FFXIII.

[Auztin]

You do know difficulty was increased on all levels like DA2's Casual was DA:O's Normal.DA:I Casual will be the same as DA2 Normal a.k.a DA:O Hard.So......the whole "Go play Casual if you want to play as your character.Tatics were for noobs."crowd need to rethink their position.How is playing on casual any better?It will particularly suck if you have to use the tatical camera often because I think it is a pointless addition trying to turn this into old style RTS like Field Commander.I like Tatics because it just makes the game feel more alive when your the commander in battle & team is suited for a mission & know what to do without you holding thier hand.
That is like EndWar with you having to individually switch units to get an order out but have no mic support.It's not tatical,it's just full on babysitting.

[Gothfather]

I think that video sums it up nicely. I think this system will work well. It seems the Devs are taking care of some of the obvious 'ifs and thens' for us. This is good, I think. Along with 'disable, enable and prioritize', hoepfully we won't need to do too much micro-managing ourselves. If the targetting parameters are also sufficient, we might be able to get everyone to do what we want, while we micro the character who is the hardest to be told what we want from them.

 

The ide is that the ifs and thens can only do so much and might be too annoying to keep changing. So they were made somewhat automatic and when they're not enough you go ahead and micro.

 

This seems like an improvemente very similar to what happened form FFXII to FFXIII.

 

Some people view things if you don't give me EXACTLY what I had before I will hate it. While another groups says if you give me exactly what I had before I will hate it. I am of the group that says give me inovation and when i TRY IT I will judge if it was a step forward or a step back.

[Morroian]

Then tell the AI not to use any of their abilities and then tell them to do it in the tactical camera.
 

You have control, you can limit the AI significantly, hell limit it so that it has zero say or you can trust it.

 

 

We have control if we want to micromanage every damn fight,  proper use of tactics in previous games allowed that to be avoided. Again choice has been lost.

[Zatche]

Then tell the AI not to use any of their abilities and then tell them to do it in the tactical camera.
 

You have control, you can limit the AI significantly, hell limit it so that it has zero say or you can trust it.

 

You either have to treat the game like you are everyone in the party and take total control or treat the companions like they are their own "person" whom you don't have total control over. Give them general guildlines? sure, Tell them to hold off abilities for special situation to be executed on your command? Yep thats possible. Automatically micromanage them? No because that isn't realistic in a command setting.

 

You might not like that but until you PLAY the game and EXPERIENCE the tools given to you with the companion AI you don't know if this design is good or bad you are just SPECULATING.

 

I know there are other options. But those aren't the options I prefer to take. The option I want to use is gone. That's not speculation.

 

And I'm not saying I'm going to hate the combat without it. Just that I lament the absence of this option in and of itself. I'm actually gushing about the game overall.

 

Side point: "Automatically micromanage them? No because that isn't realistic in a command setting." Not that I'm one for caring about realism in combat, Pause & Play is more realistic? More than simply being able to tell my Warrior companion beforehand, always use that certain ability when enemies are chilled because it detonates a cross-class combo?

[Gnoster]

Except that in the recent prologue reveal on twich the devs said when enemies have a condition that a companion can exploit the AI AUTOMATICALLY uses said ability. So now you no longer need to tell the AI to do it with a tactics entry because the basic AI system does it without the use of a tactics entry. ERGO you have the same capability as before without the need of using tactics.

http://www.twitch.tv/bioware/c/5471132

I know, I saw that stream as well, and yes it sounds fine. Problem is the ability is set to either fire or not fire automatically, it cannot be set to only fire when the condition is met, so chances are it might be on unnecessary cooldown. That is what is lacking from what we have seen. Of course one can just remove the ability and use tactical camera, but the point is players who like to min/max tactics do so to avoid tactical camera and that possibility is now gone. Personally from what I have seen in streams, previews and reviews, I am mainly concerned with two things:

1) AI pathfinding seem really bad with the companions often staying inside burning areas, and I especially cringed at Angryjoe's preview where the AI didn't automatically move out of the green traps on the grounds at the rift fight, which knocks you over. It should have been simple to program that into the AI at least. DA Fan has a video, where you see companions constantly walking into dragon fire on the ground and instantly dying.

2) mage AI's casting of barrier. Due to the no healing, this is a critical spell on hard or nightmare, and it will be critical to be cast on the right person. So for example I don't want the mage to cast barrier on the rogue who is down to half life, I need the mage to cast it on the tank. But from the videos I have seen, the AI stresses groups of party members (not class or role), and then existing life total (not what future damage can be expexted).

[NRieh]

Except that in the recent prologue reveal on twich the devs said when enemies have a condition that a companion can exploit the AI AUTOMATICALLY uses said ability.

Yeah? And may be AI can figure which kind of target I  consider the most annoying one to take them out first? What about buff\debuff conditions? Or actions to revive a party member? What about assisting party member that actually needs assistance, not one preset in the behavior menu? Taunting away from a mage, but not taunting from a warrior, huh?

[Rylor Tormtor]

Then tell the AI not to use any of their abilities and then tell them to do it in the tactical camera.
 

You have control, you can limit the AI significantly, hell limit it so that it has zero say or you can trust it.

 

You either have to treat the game like you are everyone in the party and take total control or treat the companions like they are their own "person" whom you don't have total control over. Give them general guildlines? sure, Tell them to hold off abilities for special situation to be executed on your command? Yep thats possible. Automatically micromanage them? No because that isn't realistic in a command setting.

 

You might not like that but until you PLAY the game and EXPERIENCE the tools given to you with the companion AI you don't know if this design is good or bad you are just SPECULATING.

 

Because things like this worked so well for DA2. 

 

Of course, none of this matters. The game is made, quantitatively player input has been reduced, Bioware has even moved this over to "suggestions" so the topic would die. I would have hoped someone like Alan would have attempted to at least address what is a reasonable concern.

[Silent Fear]

Except that in the recent prologue reveal on twich the devs said when enemies have a condition that a companion can exploit the AI AUTOMATICALLY uses said ability. So now you no longer need to tell the AI to do it with a tactics entry because the basic AI system does it without the use of a tactics entry. ERGO you have the same capability as before without the need of using tactics.

 

http://www.twitch.tv/bioware/c/5471132

 

 

I'm ready to bet my left nut that this is gona fail epicly. 

 

The tactical options allowed for every player to craft a perfect sinergy between all his companions based on the skills he decided to invest. Whit extensive options and rules that could be tweeked on the fly. That left us whit the ability to lead the battle from the prespective of one character and make few adjustment every now and then during combat whitout having to worry that the AI will burn some long ass cooldown on a target that is of litle or almost no importance. 

 

I can already imagane the "nightmare" dificulty - You dont fight the enemy ... you fight your allied AI to not kill itself by sitting in a pit of fire - trowing ice spells on ice ressistant foe or our long range shooting at the rabit in it's feat instead of runing from the giant that is in the proces of smashing his ranger bits all over the landscape.

 

 

 And to the "smart" guy pointing out that we should play the game instead of using "macros" and "scripts" to win our battles - you do realise that the AI is a freaking script right ? Preprogramed to do stuff instead of you ????????

 

 There is no excuse for the abssens of the tactical options - if something is not broken dont freaking remove it goddamn it.

 

P.S. I will not say i canseled my pre-order becouse i didnt make one. Dragon Age II ( whit the subtitle "The Fafing of the Champion) edjucated me in that mater.

[Ares_mito]

I hope that tactics in the game will be more than what we have seen so far, because do always the same things manually would be annoying.

[Ares_mito]

I'm ready to bet my left nut that this is gona fail epicly. 

 

The tactical options allowed for every player to craft a perfect sinergy between all his companions based on the skills he decided to invest. Whit extensive options and rules that could be tweeked on the fly. That left us whit the ability to lead the battle from the prespective of one character and make few adjustment every now and then during combat whitout having to worry that the AI will burn some long ass cooldown on a target that is of litle or almost no importance. 

 

I can already imagane the "nightmare" dificulty - You dont fight the enemy ... you fight your allied AI to not kill itself by sitting in a pit of fire - trowing ice spells on ice ressistant foe or our long range shooting at the rabit in it's feat instead of runing from the giant that is in the proces of smashing his ranger bits all over the landscape.

 

 

 And to the "smart" guy pointing out that we should play the game instead of using "macros" and "scripts" to win our battles - you do realise that the AI is a freaking script right ? Preprogramed to do stuff instead of you ????????

 

 There is no excuse for the abssens of the tactical options - if something is not broken dont freaking remove it goddamn it.

 

P.S. I will not say i canseled my pre-order becouse i didnt make one. Dragon Age II ( whit the subtitle "The Fafing of the Champion) edjucated me in that mater.

 

I agree with you I don't want that AI manage my tactics at all. If I don't want to shatter a enemy I should be able to do that!!!

[TKavatar]

Because things like this worked so well for DA2. 

 

Of course, none of this matters. The game is made, quantitatively player input has been reduced, Bioware has even moved this over to "suggestions" so the topic would die. I would have hoped someone like Alan would have attempted to at least address what is a reasonable concern.

 

I PMed Allan a couple of days ago, still no answer. And he has been online since then, so it's not like he couldn't read my message. I also tweeted Mike Laidlaw, no answer from him either :/

 

Seriously. They wrote a freaking blog post on romances of all things and now they can't even type up a short post explaining why they streamlined the tactics system at the very least. It's very disheartening to see this lack of transparency. 

[Morroian]

I PMed Allan a couple of days ago, still no answer. And he has been online since then, so it's not like he couldn't read my message. I also tweeted Mike Laidlaw, no answer from him either :/

 

Seriously. They wrote a freaking blog post on romances of all things and now they can't even type up a short post explaining why they streamlined the tactics system at the very least. It's very disheartening to see this lack of transparency. 

 

Yep not to mention nothing beyond 1 tweet on the 8 ability limitation.

[Solid_Altair]

8? Both SP and MP?