760 réponses à ce sujet

[Fidite Nemini]

When your party works like a well-oiled machine, then the game difficulty is essentially reduced. This is made obvious by the fact that you said you want to control your own character.

 

You might as well just play Casual, since that is exactly what you do on that difficulty.

The entire point of playing on Hard or Nightmare is to have a challenge. Setting up efficient tactics, while hardly wrong, is simply overcoming the challenge via artificial means.

 

 

That's interesting. Are you a player who purposefully plays bad at a videogame?

 

Because if you don't, challenging yourself will eventually lead to mastery. That in turn means the game is less difficult compared to someone who didn't master the game. In regards to your ongoing argumentation, that would mean playing to improve yourself is the anti-thesis to correctly playing the game. At which point I'd question your motivation about playing on higher difficulties, since challenge inevitably means overcoming challenge to proceed, so to purposefully keep a modium of difficulty at a level challenge, the only correct way to play the game would be to actively sabotage your own learning curve.

 

 

 

 

Writing tactics is a different "challenge" that superficially reduces actual gameplay challenge.

 

Just as mastering how to play a specific build superficially reduces actual gameplay challenge compared to having had no idea how to play a specific build.

 

 

Where is the difference?

[Meltemph]

I play on Hard because I find it to be the level that best supports roleplaying. The mechanics are generally fairer on Hard. So I don't play it for a challenge. There are reasons beyond challenge that influence choice of difficulty setting. That's where you were wrong first.

Writing a detailed set of Tactics isn't necessarily easy. There can be challenge arising from writing the algorithm. That's where you were wrong second.

Alternatively, you need to define your terms better.

Opinions and all that, but this is where I disagree. The "challenge" in setting up the scripts in DA were incredibly simple. This idea of people taking hours setting up the proper tactics really boggles my mind, considering how simple it was to set-up what exactly you wanted to do. I mean, honestly, you were struggling to find the proper tactics, that let you deal with an encounter? I found it all incredibly straight forward.

 

And I'd imagine you will be able to activate/deactivate abilities, so I'd assume you will be able to achieve, practically, the same results. Frostbite normally has pretty intelligent AI, so unless BW screwed that up, I'm not concerned. I get people like the simple things like this, but I dont see where much is going to change if the AI w/o the gambit system if the AI still reacts intelligently to what makes sense considering the battle. If they do act like idiots though, I'll be right there with you claiming we need tactics back, until they figure out their AI.

[Star fury]

Meanwhile you have more choice in character roleplaying, abilities, inquisition leveling, unique quest approaches and storyline branching, expanded crafting, and much much more!

Cry all you want. DAI is a much bigger game than any of its predecessors.

That doesn't sound like advertising at all! You are joking about "expanding" abilities. right? 8 abilities limit is "expanding"?

[Kieran G.]

Our fears confirmed is a bit of a over statement since i never once feared this, it might be since i tend to micro manage my units but i doubt this will be a problem on lower difficulties and anyway once you get to higher ones you are going to have to micro manage. DA:O was like that. normal and easy i didn't ever use the AI tactics and once i got to hard and nightmare i just micro managed each one of them.

[Spectre Impersonator]

Don't care. I've never played Dragon Age for good combat.

[Scoutyo]

Well yeah ... micromanagement does not imply controlling every battle meticulously, especially not trash mobs. It just means that harder fights with elites or lieutenants will require some pause/play ability management, especially with friendly fire.

 

Selecting your mage to cast fireball in DA2 to knock an assassin out of stealth is micromanagement. That's what I was saying.

 

In DAI, you can still have your party do what they always did, except you have to cast fireball to knock the assassin out of stealth.

 

Nothing changes.

 

I wouldn't say that "nothing" is changing.  I didn't have to switch party members every time I wanted to set off a cross class combo in DA 2, whereas now I presumably will.  I didn't have to switch to Anders to make sure he prioritized healing targets the way I wanted him to, whereas now we'll have to switch or let the AI pick who to use barrier on.  I could go on, but you get the idea.  

 

I know making heavy use of tactics wasn't for everyone, but for those of us who liked spending time crafting our tactics (and/or disliked extensive micromanaging), this is a bit of a bummer.  Heavy and intelligent use of tactics plus limited micromanaging was perfectly viable on Nightmare in the first two games.  It'd be too bad if that's changed.  Won't stop me from playing on Nightmare, though.       

[Scelous]

I usually defend Bioware and the Dragon Age series, because I think people tend to complain about everything.  That being said, this is the very first issue with Dragon Age: Inquisition that I'm kind of questionable about.

 

And it blows my mind that people are trying to brush off the fact that there are no real tactic algorithims now.  I never was huge on the character tactics thing -- I used them a bit in the past games and they were fine.  But in no situation would I say, "Heh, you liked creating tactics for your companions?  That's cheap and stupid -- you might as well just watch the game!  Having to micromanage every turn is where the fun is at."

 

The hell?  If that's fun for you, then good.  But where do you get off stating what is fun for other people?  And, by the way, the difference between watching the game and using tactics is to see how the tactics you have chosen respond to combat scenarios.

 

Anyway, I'm not huge on tactics, but I'm sad they took them out, and I can definitely see why people would like the option and miss it.  I'm pretty easy to please, but I am disappointed by this design choice.

[Meltemph]

I wouldn't say that "nothing" is changing.  I didn't have to switch party members every time I wanted to set off a cross class combo in DA 2, whereas now I presumably will.  I didn't have to switch to Anders to make sure he prioritized healing targets the way I wanted him to, whereas now we'll have to switch or let the AI pick who to use barrier on.  I could go on, but you get the idea.  

 

I know making heavy use of tactics wasn't for everyone, but for those of us who liked spending time crafting our tactics (and/or disliked extensive micromanaging), this is a bit of a bummer.  Heavy and intelligent use of tactics plus limited micromanaging was perfectly viable on Nightmare in the first two games.  It'd be too bad if that's changed.  Won't stop me from playing on Nightmare, though.       

Until we know how intelligent the AI is in this engine, I'm not sure why you would presume they made the ai not respond properly to battles without the gambit system. I would assume the more sensible thing is they designed the game where you didnt have to control all the characters and they acted intelligently. 

[Chrom72]

Ok, this isn't a game-breaking change for me but it does kind of suck. I didn't really use the tactics for much more than what the new system seems to allow, but I can see how those who heavily used them will be frustrated. There seems to be a fair amount of little things adding up to make the game less enjoyable. Hopefully this is it as far as disappointing cuts go. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Roleplaying is completely irrelevant to combat. There is nothing to discuss here.

Writing tactics is a different "challenge" that superficially reduces actual gameplay challenge.

Defining only part of the things you do while playing the game as gameplay is both arbitrary and baseless.

Moreover, roleplaying has nothing to do with combat in your game if you decide it doesn't. But there is no right or wrong way to play.

[Meltemph]

I usually defend Bioware and the Dragon Age series, because I think people tend to complain about everything.  That being said, this is the very first issue with Dragon Age: Inquisition that I'm kind of questionable about.

 

And it blows my mind that people are trying to brush off the fact that there are no real tactic algorithims now.  I never was huge on the character tactics thing -- I used them a bit in the past games and they were fine.  But in no situation would I say, "Heh, you liked creating tactics for your companions?  That's cheap and stupid -- you might as well just watch the game!  Having to micromanage every turn is where the fun is at."

 

The hell?  If that's fun for you, then good.  But where do you get off stating what is fun for other people?  And, by the way, the difference between watching the game and using tactics is to see how the tactics you have chosen respond to combat scenarios.

 

Anyway, I'm not huge on tactics, but I'm sad they took them out, and I can definitely see why people would like the option and miss it.  I'm pretty easy to please, but I am disappointed by this design choice.

I'm not sure I get your complaint, completely. Sure people like different things, some people liked the tactics system, I didnt and think the tactic system was so obvious in what the AI should be doing that I thought it should have been unneeded, but opinions and all that. That said, I dont think there is any reason people cant disagree on the merits of liking said system. I mean, I love the ogre battle combat system, but I dont think that was ever the intent in DA,maybe I'm wrong. Regardless people can like what they like and people can disagree with what people like, I'd think. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Opinions and all that, but this is where I disagree. The "challenge" in setting up the scripts in DA were incredibly simple.

It depends what you were trying to do with them.

[Looper128]

They finally did it, they broke me. I don’t want to play this game anymore. They strip feature after feature and every time I said ” Well that sucks but I'm sure I will still love the game”

 

But no, I cant say that this time. Creating advanced tactics for the AI on nightmare was always my number one favorite thing to do in DAO and DA2.

 

They gone fuckt it up. What the hell where they thinking? Changing to much from earlier games in the series will only alienate your fans. They talked so much about customization and tactical play, it was all a lie...

 

I feel so crushed right now.

[Fidite Nemini]

There was plenty of challenge in writing tactics. If you were successful and also made a good powergaming build you could steamroll the game on nightmare almost without ever switching characters, sure. But overcoming one challenge to bypass another is totally different from just switching to casual. The conventional challenge of each fight is still there, you just destroyed it with careful planning and automation, which is in no way overpowered considering it's something you can do even more precisely with micromanagement anyway, it just takes a hell of a lot longer.

 

Exactly. It's simply another way of overcoming the same challenge. Whether I clear a specific combat scenario via precise micromanagement or precise pre-determined tactics amounts to the same result.

 

The inherent thing both have in common is choice. A player can always choose to just micromanage, just as a player with a complex tactics algorithm can choose to micromanage personally without letting his tactics do everything.

 

The thing that disappoints me with this "reveal" is that choice being taken from as far as it seems.

[Scoutyo]

Until we know how intelligent the AI is in this engine, I'm not sure why you would presume they made the ai not respond properly to battles without the gambit system. I would assume the more sensible thing is they designed the game where you didnt have to control all the characters and they acted intelligently. 

 

I agree that more intelligent AI would be ideal.  But unless the game is designed so that there's only one "right" way to do things, the most intelligent AI in the world could never act in a way that'd wholly support all variations in player strategy.  That's why I'd like the more intelligent AI plus tactics.      

[Meltemph]

There was plenty of challenge in writing tactics. If you were successful and also made a good powergaming build you could steamroll the game on nightmare almost without ever switching characters, sure. But overcoming one challenge to bypass another is totally different from just switching to casual. The conventional challenge of each fight is still there, you just destroyed it with careful planning and automation, which is in no way overpowered considering it's something you can do even more precisely with micromanagement anyway, it just takes a hell of a lot longer.

What was challenging about creating tactics? Honest question here, regardless of the merits of them keeping it or removing it. I mean, there was variation in what you could do, but what actually worked seemed pretty obvious, to me. I dont think I ever "failed" at getting the tactics I wanted out of the system. I mean the gambit system is incredibly straight forward. I found creating tactics to be incredibly easy, to make good ones in any difficulty setting. Now that doesnt necessitates them needing to remove it(assuming they did "remove it" vs just not being able to transfer them over to the new engine as easily). I personally dont care, seeing as I was never attached to them to begin with, but opinions, I just dont understand where the challenge was in setting up tactics, I thought creating good ones were pretty simple. >.>

[Sylvius the Mad]

I agree that more intelligent AI would be ideal.

I don't. I don't want a more intelligent AI. I want to program the AI myself.

[Star fury]

I usually defend Bioware and the Dragon Age series, because I think people tend to complain about everything.  That being said, this is the very first issue with Dragon Age: Inquisition that I'm kind of questionable about.

 

And it blows my mind that people are trying to brush off the fact that there are no real tactic algorithims now.  I never was huge on the character tactics thing -- I used them a bit in the past games and they were fine.  But in no situation would I say, "Heh, you liked creating tactics for your companions?  That's cheap and stupid -- you might as well just watch the game!  Having to micromanage every turn is where the fun is at."

 

The hell?  If that's fun for you, then good.  But where do you get off stating what is fun for other people?  And, by the way, the difference between watching the game and using tactics is to see how the tactics you have chosen respond to combat scenarios.

 

Anyway, I'm not huge on tactics, but I'm sad they took them out, and I can definitely see why people would like the option and miss it.  I'm pretty easy to please, but I am disappointed by this design choice.

But but you can upgrade inquisition and change curtains in Skyhold!

[Wulfram]

I don't want an intelligent AI, I want an AI which does what I want it to

[tmp7704]

But but you can upgrade inquisition and change curtains in Skyhold!

It seems like the most fair compromise would be to have automated tactics for Skyhold curtain changes.

[Scoutyo]

I don't. I don't want a more intelligent AI. I want to program the AI myself.

 

So do I.  Intelligent AI isn't antithetical to crafting our own tactics.  The point I was making with the rest of the post you quoted is that it would be best to have more intelligent AI and tactics, because even brilliant AI alone cannot support all variations in different players' strategies.

[Lebanese Dude]

Defining only part of the things you do while playing the game as gameplay is both arbitrary and baseless.

Moreover, roleplaying has nothing to do with combat in your game if you decide it doesn't. But there is no right or wrong way to play.

 

I honestly don't understand your point. How does setting the difficulty on Hard affect roleplaying? It simply makes fights harder while not changing any roleplaying aspects. Roleplaying isn't dependent on difficulty at all.

 

You can roleplay by deciding what abilities you use and how you use them in a fight. You can roleplay as a crazy melee staff-mage in DA2 or play a non-lethal mage with no damage abilities.

 

All of this is artificially changing combat to suit your own needs. This makes any discussion of balance or challenge moot as you are imposing additional limitations to yourself that aren't forced on you to begin with.

 

I played a DA2 Nightmare game where my mage only cast support abilities and ran around with healing aura. I also played a support tank rogue in another and it was my 3rd favorite run ever. They were certainly fun in their own way, but they made the game artificially harder in many others. I can't blame BioWare for the added difficulty.

 

So basically any self-imposed limitations are your responsibility. BioWare does not balance combat by catering to potential roleplaying by the player.

 

---

 

I have no qualms regarding you wanting to use tactics to streamline the game. I just don't see how setting up an efficient algorithm that runs well for the entirety of the game constitutes as gameplay challenge. 

It's like playing a shooting game with auto-aim on, except this time you are coding the auto-aim. Either way, the game ends up easier than intended.

 

Edited for clarity.

[xkg]

They finally did it, they broke me. I don’t want to play this game anymore. They strip feature after feature and every time I said ” Well that sucks but I'm sure I will still love the game”

 

But no, I cant say that this time. Creating advanced tactics for the AI on nightmare was always my number one favorite thing to do in DAO and DA2.

 

They gone fuckt it up. What the hell where they thinking? Changing to much from earlier games in the series will only alienate your fans. They talked so much about customization and tactical play, it was all a lie...

 

I feel so crushed right now.

 

Well... you can customise some curtains in the keep. You couldn't before.

More customisation.

[Fidite Nemini]

I don't. I don't want a more intelligent AI. I want to program the AI myself.

 

This is the first time ever that I'm in danger of running out of likes.

 

 

Here's one guy who understands how I felt spending hours in the menu screen in DA:O/DAII to tinker with tactics!