273 réponses à ce sujet

[lordrawker]

You gave very good and valid points but changing into any form, you lose your ranged and spell damage, and thus becoming a melee character, yourself. Dexterity might not contribute to damage but it does with attack rating and defense. It's better that you get to soak some damage while pounding your enemies in a head to head battle. You can always forget getting Strength if your Magic is enough to reach the Strength cap.

That is why it is a challenge, right? If you aim to optimize your party, you'd of course let Wynne focus on healing, alone. I think my argument is invalid if it's a team play strategy but may prove to be helpful in Solo scenarios.

Modifié par lordrawker, 29 janvier 2010 - 04:17 .

[Mr_Raider]

x-president wrote...
- So I would recommend if someone wanted to build a high dmg shapeshifter just slowly add your points.  Maybe 2 Magic, 1 Strength.  Basically substitute strength points for willpower points.  This will give you a high dmg shapeshifter and a high level mage.  As a shapshifter, willpower really isn't that necessary sense if you plan to utilize the different forms, you will not by using that much mana.

This completely negates the need to get AW, since you will make the str requirement to equip armors.

Which brings me to another point. If you have enough mana regen equipment in human form before transforming, can you regen mana is swarm form?

[daddytat]

Mr_Raider wrote...

Which brings me to another point. If you have enough mana regen equipment in human form before transforming, can you regen mana is swarm form?

That's a good question but I'm not sure how you would check for that other than the perceived notion that you seem to be in swarm form longer in battles than b4. The character stat info in this game is seriosly lacking. Maybe the toolset could shed some light on this.

I still can't even figure out whether or not an enemy has a buff spell or not. The ai can tell in the tactics choices but the human player cannot. Go figure!

[daddytat]

double double toil and trouble (post that is)

Modifié par daddytat, 29 janvier 2010 - 05:30 .

[daddytat]

triple triple toil and err what rymes w/ triple? (Yet another goofed up post)

Modifié par daddytat, 29 janvier 2010 - 05:33 .

[daddytat]

OK! This was a dirty trick. It kept telling me that a reply had been created but refreashing the thread would not show my response!

[x-president]

Mr_Raider wrote...

x-president wrote...
- So I would recommend if someone wanted to build a high dmg shapeshifter just slowly add your points.  Maybe 2 Magic, 1 Strength.  Basically substitute strength points for willpower points.  This will give you a high dmg shapeshifter and a high level mage.  As a shapshifter, willpower really isn't that necessary sense if you plan to utilize the different forms, you will not by using that much mana.

This completely negates the need to get AW, since you will make the str requirement to equip armors.

Which brings me to another point. If you have enough mana regen equipment in human form before transforming, can you regen mana is swarm form?

I agree.  From my current game, Shapeshifter/AW really isn't the best combo.  Sense it doesn't help your dmg while shapeshifting.  It's best to just have the strength increasing giving you access to good armour and have good dmg.  At first I thought it may be good, but there are better combos.

Shapeshifter/Blood Mage looks to be the best combo atm.  You still want a good spellscore reguardless.  I'm not saying just dump into strength because you won't know your cap until you get Master Shapeshifter which isn't until lvl 12.  So slowly increasing will balance spellscore and strength points.

[x-president]

lordrawker wrote...

You gave very good and valid points but changing into any form, you lose your ranged and spell damage, and thus becoming a melee character, yourself. Dexterity might not contribute to damage but it does with attack rating and defense. It's better that you get to soak some damage while pounding your enemies in a head to head battle. You can always forget getting Strength if your Magic is enough to reach the Strength cap.

That is why it is a challenge, right? If you aim to optimize your party, you'd of course let Wynne focus on healing, alone. I think my argument is invalid if it's a team play strategy but may prove to be helpful in Solo scenarios.

You can add dexterity points, but to get beyond the cap for it to actually matter you have to be willing to pump dexerity over 30.

Lets say on average you get to lvl 22.  That's 66 points plus 5 to start so we have around 71 points total.  You'd have to put in at least 1/2 of those points into dexterity.  That doesn't leave much for strength or magic.  I guess if you are trying to have a high dex shapechanger it could work, but I don't know if it would be very effective or not.  It would have to be tested.


Currently I have a dexterity of 17 and a magic score of 52 (spellscore 49).  My Dexterity score bumps to 33 giving me +16 boost in Spider form.  That is a pretty sweet boost for never having to add dexterity points the entire game.  Points were added from the Fade and items I am wearing.  But, that doesn't matter.  If dexterirty was 10, I'd just get a boost of +23 becasue it's the spellscore that determines boosts.

So I still don't think it'd be worth spending dexterity points.  Strength on the other hand doesn't have such a high boost.  It caps in low to mid 20s.

Also Swarm is your ranged attack for the Shapeshifter.  Bear is more warrior and Spider is kinda like a Rogue giving you some range attacks as well as up close attacking.

[x-president]

Broodmother Battle:

I went with a more mixed team.  PC Mage (Shapeshifting), Morrigan stayed herself, Wynne (healer), Allistar.

I need the ranged attack sense I was setting up in the back so I couldn't really use more then 1 person in shapeshifting form.  I did stay in Bear for pretty much the entire battle and then switching to Spider in the end.

A couple advantages from being in Bear or Spider, you can't be grabbed by the Broodmother and the Spider has excellent resistance to her spit.  I try some attempts at more then one bear on a direct attack, but I couldn't stand up to the beating vs the damage I was doing.

Sense all my shapeshifters do not have equally strong attacks, it wasn't working out after the tentacles swarmed around.  Plus the Broodmother would stun the Bears easily.

But staying back and defending the Bear easily replaced a 2nd warrior character instead.


www.wegame.com/watch/broodmother-using-shapeshifting/

[x-president]

Broodmother revivsted is uploading now.  I had to redo the battle becasue it didn't feel like it had enough shapeshifting for me.

The new version is 14 1/2 minute battle and I take it to shapeshifting or nothing.  I still kept Wynne as healer, but Morrigan and myself went in and out of shapeshifting until the very end.  Like they say it needs more cowbell, well I needed more shapeshifting.

I wish Bear had a killing sequence like tearing off the victims head.  That would have made this fight awesome.


I'm uploading now and will post as soon as I can.

[x-president]

Broodmother Revisited:

Bear vs Broodmother

www.wegame.com/watch/shapeshifting-defeats-broodmother/


I kept shapeshifing all the way till the end. 

[soteria]

Looks like the bear is a winner there because you can melee it from out of range. No massive attacks or anything else to worry about, just the spit, which the nature salve took care of.

[x-president]

soteria wrote...

Looks like the bear is a winner there because you can melee it from out of range. No massive attacks or anything else to worry about, just the spit, which the nature salve took care of.

Yea. 

Bear, Spider, or Swarm can't be grabbed or overwhelmed so against any enemy that uses those types of methods, you basically neutralize their attack.  They can be stunned which the Broodmother did on other attempts, but I timed everything out to stay away form it becasue the the tentacles would swarm the Bears.

In a previous try I had Allistar run up and attack.  He was instantly grabbed and killed by the Broodmother.


I'm very interested to see what the dragons will do and if they can grab my Shapeshifters.

[x-president]

Update:

So far the mage where I've been just boosting strength as of late is the strongest of the 3 shapeshifters.  My strength is in the mid 30s and I have a spellscore in low 50s and my shapeshifiting is gettign very strong.

Both my Spider and Bear average 30+ a single hit while I still can dish out the spell damage if I wanted.

Plus now I finally used my spell points.  :happy:  I've been using only 3 spells for the whole game and now I have my arsenal of destruction.  I saved them up so I could unlock the achievments for filling out all the spell sections.

But I still picked spells that ehance or benefit a shapeshifter.  Spells that would give me time to shape shift in a battle or even in a crowd.  Plus I am the Mage assassin of the team with Mana Clash.  Most of the spells are more crowd control so I can lockdown more enemies inteh beginning and it'll also give me time to shapeshift.


- Also I actually Overwhelmed a Boss level enemy with my Bear.  I couldn't believe it.  They usually resist it, but I got one.

Modifié par x-president, 30 janvier 2010 - 06:30 .

[High Magus]

Paralysis Explosion should be helpful in getting every shape-shifted in fights where you start next to enemies.



20 seconds of free preparation. I use that for SotC, but I guess Bears work too...

[x-president]

High Magus wrote...

Paralysis Explosion should be helpful in getting every shape-shifted in fights where you start next to enemies.

20 seconds of free preparation. I use that for SotC, but I guess Bears work too...

As longh as you dont' get yourself in the process.  Which for some reason I do a lot.  Actually glyph of repulsion is an excellent way to free time for shapeshifting.  I've been really getting good a placing that spell alone to benefit the entire team.

I don't mean just dropping at doorways either.  I can use that spell anywhere at any time.

[x-president]

I just confirmed something awesome I was wonderig about for a while.


You can overwhelm bosses!


Previously I thought I had overwhelmed a boss, but it happened very late and he died suddenly so I wasn't completely sure.  But I just finished the battle against Howe.

Howe was about 50% or a little under and I kept hitting overwhelm to see if I would get him.  On the 2nd or 3rd attempt, I just dropped him like a bad of potatoes and just totally mauled him to death as a Bear.  It was awesome.  I'm not sure it can be done early because they are full strength and maybe have some buffs.  But it can be done.  This was on nightmare so it can be done on any difficulty.


You just gotta keep trying.  What'll happen is you have have to keep hitting overwhelm.  If you fail the spell doesn't cooldown.  So keep trying until you can get it.  I'm not sure if strength has to be a ceratin level or not either.  Currently my strength is pretty hiigh and I get 30+ per hit.  I could be around 40.

I'm glad I confirmed this.  I would imagine Spider coudl do it as well sense my spider and bear are equal in strength and dmg.  That's if strength determines knockdown or overwhelm abilities.


- Overwhelm can be an awesome tool against bosses and saves everyone sometime from taking dmg.  I'm about to fight Sercauthien.  I'll post up if I can overwhelm her.

Modifié par x-president, 01 février 2010 - 07:00 .

[AlgolagniaVolcae]

x-president wrote...

So people complaing about Strength score determines dmg, well yes you are doing a physical attack so it is only right, but the form boosts this for you.  Also remeber the posion score from what I can tell is effected by spellpower.

Spellpower certainly doesn't influence the damage from Flying Swarm. It has consistently inflicted 19 nature damage(depending on resistances, and distance from the swarm) since lvl 10, and my character is now lvl 18.
I haven't actually used bear, or spider since gaining Master Shapeshifter but I can say with certainty that Flying Swarm does not benefit from spellpower or it's own shifted bonuses to attributes.

[x-president]

AlgolagniaVolcae wrote...

x-president wrote...

So people complaing about Strength score determines dmg, well yes you are doing a physical attack so it is only right, but the form boosts this for you.  Also remeber the posion score from what I can tell is effected by spellpower.

Spellpower certainly doesn't influence the damage from Flying Swarm. It has consistently inflicted 19 nature damage(depending on resistances, and distance from the swarm) since lvl 10, and my character is now lvl 18.
I haven't actually used bear, or spider since gaining Master Shapeshifter but I can say with certainty that Flying Swarm does not benefit from spellpower or it's own shifted bonuses to attributes.

Spellpower increases the boost you recieve from changing forms.  So if you wanted to keep a certain attribute lower, the boost would make up for it.  Strength doesn't get a high boost.

Dexterterity does and I never usually add points to dexterity.  You can get boosts over 20+ with a good Spellscore.


But Strength will increase dmg for all forms.  I have confirmed all of this.


Current Dmg Stats:

Swarm  - 31.4

Spider - 35.4

Bear  - 35.4

Strength = 43
Spellscore = 73

- Bear & Spider will always have the same dmg rating once you go beyond the cap that spellscore gives you.  Swarm is always 4 points less no matter what as far as I can tell.

Now I also am wearing all nature dmg boosting gear that I can find.  This gives me a better chance with swarm dmg sense it is supposed to be nature dmg unlike spider or bear which are physical dmg.

Modifié par x-president, 01 février 2010 - 08:21 .

[x-president]

Update:

Dragons cannot grab you and toss in Bear form just like the Broodmother can't.  I'm guessing it is the same for the Spider as well.

The Bear gets total aggro just by being there.  You can get stunned, but it kinda shutsdown the dragons.  Easiest Dragon fight ever, even on nightmare.

I just did the Flemeth fight with ease and stayed in dragon form the entire time.  I probably could have beaten her with just the Bear alone as long as Wynne healed me.  But I used Allistar with crossbow and Leliana with bow along with Wynne.


Video:

Flemeth Fight: www.wegame.com/watch/bear-vs-flemeth/

Death Sequence: www.wegame.com/watch/dragon-killing-sequence/

- I got bonus killing sequence too.  I actually fought her twice and on the first fight I got Allistar finishing Flemeth off.

[beancounter501]

I was testing a few spells out and I found out that the shifted forms are completely immune to the knockdown from both grease and earthquake.

Grease is a knockdown when it is first cast and it will knockdown anyone entering the grease. It is really easy to abuse this with the swarm. Have one caster cast Grease on your swarm character. Then have the swarm character run in and out of the Grease AOE. The poor AI will follow you and be continually knocked down. In the meantime your are constantly damaging them. Kind of funny.

You could do the same with Earthquake. Just run around the AOE in Swarm mode doing damage while all the melee mobs take damage.

Modifié par beancounter501, 02 février 2010 - 04:00 .

[x-president]

Yea, I notice eathquake have little effect.  Grease will slow spiders down, but yea swarm can pretty much go over any trap without triggering or being effected.

Also swarm causes major aggrevation.  Everyone will chase you down.  I guess nobody likes bugs flying around your head, not even darkspawn.  lol



Too bad Swarm has major problems with fire.  Other wise you could use grease fire. 

[x-president]

Update:

I'm finishing up the game right now and I'm getting close to the Archdemon.  I did do the Loghain fight using mostly shapeshifting.  I used stun and cc to give me time for changing.

Here's the vid:  (I go through all the Shapeshifting forms)

www.wegame.com/watch/loghain-vs-shapeshifing/


***I plan on using Bear vs the Archdemon as a primary tank and melee attack.  I wanna see how it reacts.  I'm guessing it'll be the same as Flemeth.

My final team is PC-Mage, Leliana, Wynne, & Allistar. 

- Allistar does have a good crossbow, so I'll probably keep him back and just have the Bear strictly melee.  I'm probably gonna do the fight twice.  Once I wanna try without army support, but I may do the first run with to see how it goes.

Also if I can I wanna get teh kill shot inthe end with Allistar. 

My shapeshifting to pretty strong atm.  I can 1 hit wack the darkspawn and just maul enmies to death.

[soteria]

Too bad Swarm has major problems with fire. Other wise you could use grease fire.

Well, grease fire does crap damage and doesn't slow people down anyway.

[beancounter501]

Grease Fire is horrible! No need to worry about damage from that combo. It is literally 1 point a tick. Grease is decent. Nothing like knocking down and slowing every single critter in a big AOE. Plus the grease lasts for 20 seconds and the cooldown is 20 seconds and it only costs 20 mana.



But the main use was to run the swarm out of the grease and then back in. Each time you did that it would knockdown anyone chasing you. It is hilarious to watch. Almost reminds me of the old Three Stooges show.