273 réponses à ce sujet

[x-president]

Update:

I just finished my playthrough.  I actually played the Archdemon fight a couple times to test some things.  Like I thought you can distract the Archdemon with the Bear like any other Dragon.  I called in Mages once he moved to the far spot for backup agaisnt the armies.  It actually went reall smooth.  I switched back to human to fire the ballistas.  Then went back into Bear to finsh off the Archdemon.  As long as you have some type of healer helping your Bear out you are fine.  While in Bear, Spider, or Swarm you cannot heal so it is very importatn to have a healer assisting.  But it was a fairly easy battle and went smoothly.



*** Overall Shapeshifter Thoughts ***

1.  They are incredibly underestimated. 

Shapeshifters can be a force on the battlefield.  Not only can they replace a tank or a crowd control companion, but they are excellent against bosses that wanna grab and toss you like Broodmother or Dragons because they can't be tossed.

2.  Shapeshifting is like having the dog on steriods anytime you want.

3.  Not only can you be a powerful Shapeshifter, but you can have a very strong Mage giving you many more options strategiclly in many battles.

4.  One Shapeshifter is probably enough in a group.  Balance is key and having a tema dedicated to specific spots works very good.  On this playthrough I used 3 Shapeshifters, but I found myself not using the 3rd as much.  I used two fairly often.  Still one shapeshifter would creat good balance.  Morrigan is the perfect candidate or PC.  Wynne just gets it too late and she's geared towards healer already so I wouldn't recommend her.

5.  I didn't use a lot of tactic setups for my Shapeshifters.  I used more micromanaging and I think it worked out better.  I prefer to keep tactics set to a human setup so if they every come out of shapeshifting they are ready to go and I don't have to switch tactics constantly.


Some final stats.  This imo is kind of a weak Shapeshifter build.  I was testing most of the game and didn't really boost strength unti late in the game.

Human Attributes
Str   - 46
Dex - 19
WP  - 36
Mag - 57
Cun - 21
Con - 30

Spellscore - 72
Dmg - 38.1 (Spider Bear), (34.1 Swarm)

- Now that I know what areas to focus in, I could probably build Morrigan or a PC Mage to be a much stronger Shapeshifter character.  I would defintiely recommend using Morrigan more on Shapeshifting and CC spells.  She can be very powerful.


***I'm probably gonna post up some short guides for the different forms and building a Shapshifter.  If anyone has any questions or ideas post them up.

Modifié par x-president, 03 février 2010 - 04:42 .

[gargantuan_ego]

Let me just say that following your experiments and tests has been very interesting. It is also nice to see what can be done with a specialization deemed all but useless by a lot of people. Thumbs up for the vids as well!

I am probably going to try this for my next playthrough and would definitely be interested in some sort of Shapeshifter guide with recommendations for the build and pointers for spell picks.

Modifié par gargantuan_ego, 03 février 2010 - 10:44 .

[Knal1991]

in my current playthrough I have a lvl 12 mage with no specs, and training into primal and lowest line of creation....now I might want to try this out (first planned one spending those four extra points into the first line of entropy but might change that now)...tried to make her a nature mage so shapeshifting would fit her well...

Should I have both morrigan and wynne healers/ buffers?

also does it matter which extra you choose, cause I was planning on taking Zevran with me...or else Shale or dog...


EDIT: also, which should be the second spec , blood mage or arcane warrior, I gues blood magic since you are already boosting strength right?

Modifié par Knal1991, 03 février 2010 - 12:28 .

[x-president]

Knal1991 wrote...

in my current playthrough I have a lvl 12 mage with no specs, and training into primal and lowest line of creation....now I might want to try this out (first planned one spending those four extra points into the first line of entropy but might change that now)...tried to make her a nature mage so shapeshifting would fit her well...

Should I have both morrigan and wynne healers/ buffers?

also does it matter which extra you choose, cause I was planning on taking Zevran with me...or else Shale or dog...


EDIT: also, which should be the second spec , blood mage or arcane warrior, I gues blood magic since you are already boosting strength right?

I wouldn't suggest a Shapeshifter/Healer combo becasue usually you wanna keep the healer in human form so it really doesn't work out for the best.

So far I've found the Shapeshifter/Blood Mage to be the best combo.  Using Arcane Warrior doesn't help when you are boosting strength already which you have to do for a strong Shapeshifter build.

So I would give Morrigan Blood Mage if you plan to make her into a more powerful Shapeshifter.



As for spells you wanna focus on more CC (crwod control). 

Earthquake - Works very good comboing with Swarm.  Swarm does not get effectted while enimies will be knocked down.

Glyph of Paralysis and Repulsion are very good to buy you time to shapeshift in battle.  I found Glyph of Repulsion to be better at times.  Cast it right on top of yourself.

Sleep, Walking Nightmare, Forcefield, Paralyze, & Mass Paralysis are always good.


***You wanna pick spells so you can do 2 things.

1.  Lockdown as many enemies as you can beginning battle and then Shapeshift.
2.  Protect yourself while Shapeshifting in Battle.

- Focuses picking spells based on those tactics.  It takes 5 seconds to shapechange and oyu wanna give yourself time and help the team as much as you can.

Plus as soon as you change shape you will be able to control even more enemies using either web, overwhelm, split the swarm, or just swarm by itself.    Settingup like this you can pretty much take a groupf 5 to 8 enemies and just completely shut themn down with ease.

- Of course I would make sure you do get some offensive spells.  Morrigan does come with lightning and Winter's Breath which are excellenst spells with a low mana cost.

- Also Blood Magic plays into this very good becasue you can stun large groups with Blood Wound or use Blood Control to gain even more control.

[x-president]

gargantuan_ego wrote...

Let me just say that following your experiments and tests has been very interesting. It is also nice to see what can be done with a specialization deemed all but useless by a lot of people. Thumbs up for the vids as well!

I am probably going to try this for my next playthrough and would definitely be interested in some sort of Shapeshifter guide with recommendations for the build and pointers for spell picks.

I'm gonna work on a guide today for a good build.  Most likely I'm gonna change the original post.

[Knal1991]

ok thanks, I'm making the pc shapeshifter, as i'd like morrigan to continue the entropy line, has some nice support powers...and offcourse sleep.....maybe later on I expand her to shapeshifter too...



this really comes in handy as I had no idea of what spec I wanted... now I do thanks! fits her perfectly as I rp the pc as a nature based mage...

[Knal1991]

I'm experiencing an awesome bug, y'know the bug which prevents you from changing the weopons or armours but still uses the stuff(not graphically changing)

apperently this can be done with shapeshifting too... so I can spit, web,rage,slam,overwhelm, divide the swarm while looking as my pc...this also causes you to get a nice wasp shield, they are surrounding my pc unortunatly you cannot cast other spells though but it looks awesome, in wasp form it will let you run insanely fast...

funny bug I wanted to share...>_<

also it uses the two handed style, so youre hitting with your staff, instead of any other attack, nice for those who want to hit with their staffs I suppose...

Modifié par Knal1991, 03 février 2010 - 06:10 .

[x-president]

That happened to me once with Morrigan.  I ended up getting stuck in an object while in Swarm.  Luckily once I switched out broke free.

[x-president]

I'm begining to insert sections for my guide inthe original post.


**OP Updated 2/3/10

[x-president]

Additional OP update.

I'll tweak and add more as I go.  I'm gonna start another playthrough and try to build Morrigan as a very Strong Shapeshifter.

I'll probably add more to the tactic sections and tweak them out better.  Right now it's some basic things to get it going.  I'll be testing out preset tactics using the tactics menu this time.

[x-president]

*** OP Updated ***


I added the videos to the OP post on top.

[RDeLove]

Have you started your second build yet and are you going solo run or doing it with full team?

[x-president]

RDeLove wrote...

Have you started your second build yet and are you going solo run or doing it with full team?

I'll probably start another game tonight.  It won't be solo, but I'm gonna either try to build Morrigan to be a powerful shapeshifter or try my build to see how it works.  I haven't decided yet.  It'll probably be best if I try another build strictly for Shapeshifting.


I also wanna try to setup some tactics using the menu system and see how it works out.  I mainly micromanaged the shapeshifters on my first playthrough.


I've never did a solo run and I'm not sure if I wanna try it for the first time as a Shapeshifter or not.

Modifié par x-president, 04 février 2010 - 12:44 .

[RDeLove]

Well seeing as that you are going to go full team, I would go elf putting all into magic from the start, doing this you can have paralyis explosion before you leave the fade, just make sure you kill the Valor entity for the extra xp.



Pump magic til 38 for AW passive, (giving you better bonus in shifted forms from weapons and armor) afterwhich all else can go to strength and dex 2/1 respectively. You will be in Lothering at that time, I would "beeline" it to camp, pick up shapeshifting then do Lothering, doing that will net you bear form before leaving Lothering. After Lothering I recommend the magi tower, for additional stats points.



This is a respectable build that ends with just about the same result as the one you are contemplating. With the exception of adding dex, which is arguably only beneficial to human origin, you could go all strenght after reaching 38 magic. When first acquiring spider form if done the way I describe, you will be hitting for 12-14 average. My only real offensive power was arcane blast I concentrated on debilitating/cc spells.



Ive been playing for a long while, and on nightmare if you arent careful it can get hairy, with you doing more harm than good to yourself.



On tactics, learn them, use them, love them. Properly set all foes will fall before you. Im tutoring my bro right now, he is gonna go solo ( or die trying ) Ive babbled enough for now, must eat. lol

[x-president]

Too bad I started before reading this.  But all is good.  I decided to do another PC-Mage build focused strictly on Shapeshifting.

Weapon dmg does not help your dmg in spider, bear, or swarm.  Also Armor is capped so I don't think going for Arcane Warrior really benefits a shapeshifter.  At least in the testing I've done it hasn't helped like I expected it too.


I actually changed my point distribution a tad.  I will have my Strength cap by lvl 12 giving me 43 without boosting it.  I decided to alternate, +3 Strength one level, then the next level +2 Strength +1 Magic.

I just finished Lothering getting Shapeshifter there.  My Spider rocked out at the end.  I get average 20 dmg per hit.  I'm at 30 strength and 23 Magic.  My spells are getting decent dmg even with the low magic score.  One thing I did notice, I 'm kinda limited on Spells because my Magic level isn't high enough.  I didn't really think about, but I really wanna get a powerful shapeshifter.

Everything has gone really smooth.  I'm on Nightmare difficulty and all the battles have been pretty straight forward.

Currently I'm lvl 7.  My plan was to do Honneleath for the Helm and then do Soldier's Peak for the 2 spells, then straight to Circle Tower.  I figured I'd have Bear by then and with the additional gear boosts I should have a good dmg score for my spider and bear.


**Also I decided to pickup Coercion instead sense I kinda had some time before I needed combat tactics.  It worked out good becasue during the Origin story I was able to sneak the staff out and keep it.  It gives +2 dmg and +2 Spellpower.

So I think everything is going good so far.  I may gear up Blood Dragon Armor before the Circle if I can.

[TBastian]

Yours is a very interesting build. I personally prefer my casting build, most points into Magic and only a few in cunning, willpower and constitution, and most spells from the Primal Tree. Then it's just a matter of using my most powerful spells (Cone of Cold+Fist+Petrify, Fireball+Earthquake, the Primal DoT's) and changing into the appropriate form while I wait for my spells to be available again (Spider to keep enemies inside the DoTs, Bear or Swarm with Earthquake, Bear if I need to kill something inside the DoTs or shatter that extra petrified enemy). No significant loss in damage (staff has very good armor penetration), I still gain the survivability bonuses of changing forms and I'm the best nuker anyone could want (every other mage specialization needs to focus more on some other attribute). I see you've already started to notice how well the Primal Tree works for the Shapeshifter.
I might be able to help your build out:
First off, take Poison-Making. Even basic is enough, just so you can use even the most powerful poison coatings. Then just have someone else craft strong poisons for you and then use it on your Shapeshifter before changing forms. You'll appreciate the extra damage or effect... I do, and I only use my animal form's normal attacks when I absolutely need to. And it usually lasts for a full minute too. You can take balms before shapeshifting as well.
I would really recommend taking Force Field for your build. I personally don't take it, but my Wynne and Morrigan always have it.
In the spell suggestions part of your guide specify that people should take spells that work against Undead, Constructs and Demons. We already know that once we deal with these we are limited to using Bear Form, and since your build won't be picking too many nukes it would probably be best if your readers knew which spells are best (it would be disaster if they took spells that didn't work on Undead, for example, and they had to fight entire groups of those in Bear Form).
Finally, use traps and lures! Don't waste spells points when you alternative ways of achieving the same effect.

I learned a lot from your guide. Like I have never tried to Overwhelm a boss, simply because I thought bosses were well... bosses. And now I know that Dragons can very well waste their grab on me. Some nice info from other contributors too, like the specific Shapeshifter values. And I could possibly turn my Shapshifter into an emergency tanker with some tweaking... Thanks a bunch.

Modifié par TBastian, 04 février 2010 - 06:17 .

[Knal1991]

I really want to thank you again, for some reason, revenants haven't been this easy for me prior to shapeshifting, thnx bear form.... another hint I might suggest, when facing a revenant pick up petrify, itdoesn't work always but if itdoes you mostl likely have time to go through all shapeshifting abilities atleast once, unfortunatly it doesn't do overwhelm but bear form sure saved my ass..andpetrify works against several bossess fairly well...

but I wonder how usefull it is when you are the only mage in your team, cause basically youll be mageless for a moment, unfortunatly I already spent most my points in Magic and willpower, but will put the remaining ones in strength...

Final reason staff has 10 spellpower, does tranferinto damage/bonus..?

Modifié par Knal1991, 04 février 2010 - 02:56 .

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

Final Reason also has a damage bonus.

[x-president]

Yea, I'm kinda setting Spell Casting to almost a secondary option.  I really wanna see if I can get the shapechanging really strong, but have that balance of spellcasting if I need it.

I have forcefield already, but I have a lot of Tier 1 spells.  More offensive spells then I expect and the entire tier 1 primal section.  I'm really gonna try to use earthquake combo with shapeshifting and possible grease to see what kind of damage I can do.

Yea those undead and skeletons are tough fights against shapeshifters.  I'm gonna do some testing and see what works really good on this playthrough.  CC always works good against them, but sometimes they just out number you and can make it a really hard fight.


Also imo dexterity seems kind of a waste to add points to.  In my last playthrough, shapeshifting gave me dexterity boosts in the low 30s.  With that type of a boost, it didn't seem like I needed to add more dex points.

[Knal1991]

grease really buys you time if a horde is running towards you



grease + quake almost immobilizes them, as they constant fall down and can't run out of it that fast,

pick up ice and earth first...I got fire after earth but went in the mages tower, forgot the immense amount of rage demons andthe other enemies were all nature based >_>

[RDeLove]

x-president wrote...

Too bad I started before reading this.  But all is good.  I decided to do another PC-Mage build focused strictly on Shapeshifting.

Weapon dmg does not help your dmg in spider, bear, or swarm.  Also Armor is capped so I don't think going for Arcane Warrior really benefits a shapeshifter.  At least in the testing I've done it hasn't helped like I expected it too.


I actually changed my point distribution a tad.  I will have my Strength cap by lvl 12 giving me 43 without boosting it.  I decided to alternate, +3 Strength one level, then the next level +2 Strength +1 Magic.

I just finished Lothering getting Shapeshifter there.  My Spider rocked out at the end.  I get average 20 dmg per hit.  I'm at 30 strength and 23 Magic.  My spells are getting decent dmg even with the low magic score.  One thing I did notice, I 'm kinda limited on Spells because my Magic level isn't high enough.  I didn't really think about, but I really wanna get a powerful shapeshifter.

Everything has gone really smooth.  I'm on Nightmare difficulty and all the battles have been pretty straight forward.

Currently I'm lvl 7.  My plan was to do Honneleath for the Helm and then do Soldier's Peak for the 2 spells, then straight to Circle Tower.  I figured I'd have Bear by then and with the additional gear boosts I should have a good dmg score for my spider and bear.


**Also I decided to pickup Coercion instead sense I kinda had some time before I needed combat tactics.  It worked out good becasue during the Origin story I was able to sneak the staff out and keep it.  It gives +2 dmg and +2 Spellpower.

So I think everything is going good so far.  I may gear up Blood Dragon Armor before the Circle if I can.

Blood Dragon armor early was the reason I went this direction, ending stats workout nearly the same going either route.  With my team to back me up it was ok  to dump my points into magic ( to 38 ) and for my forms to start off doing 5-7 damage less than your all strength build.  It allowed me to pick spells early, ex. paralysis explosion (P.E.)  combo before leaving the origin story fade, with that combo life was easy, after P.E.. 

I put 1 in cunning early for coercion  for staff.  I was also able to gain debilitating aoe spell combos from the entrophy line,  combined with P.E. and my team for support the enemy stood little chance.  It was rough my first playthru with this build, ( had to do it twice ) because my aoe combos were freezing/decimating my own team, lol.

Ironically Im going to be following your build more so than mine, if any build could solo, yours has the most potential, I still have to figure a proper balance early on tho, going your route, would lead to disaster for solo.   Gonna need some form of magical backup to ensure early surival.   This suggest going elf, but for the strength to fuel your forms human is ideal, and we cant touch dwarfs, hmmm, gotta break out my blackboard and chalk, lol.

[x-president]

Yea, pumping strength early gives you early shapeshifter power.

I average low 20s and I'm only lvl 8.  The stomp on bear I can get 40 a single hit using rage.  I mostly have tier 1 spells because magic lvl isn't high enough.  I'm a few points from unlocking tier 3.

My CC spells are Glypph of Paralysis, Forcefield, & Mind Blast.

I also have the 2 spells from Soldier's Peak now.  Additional spells are Flame Blast, Stone Fist, Lightning, WInter's Breath, & Arcane Bolt.  I grabbed Flame Burst for the Spiders.  It's there weak spot.

Also I have Stone Armor and Mana Drain.  I grabbed Mana Drain becasue I am working towards Mana Clash and Stone Armor was a must becasue I want Earhquake to combo with shapeshifting.


I just finished Soldiers Peak and I rocked that Desire Demon in Bear form.  I was the last one standing.  Bear is doing really good against Skeletons and Undead.


Gear:
Mostly Mage Gear, but I'm probably gonna equip the Warden Commander's Armour I got from Sophia.  That should give me a good fire resistance fighting those Rage Demon in the Circle Tower which is where I am now.

I also have Helm of Honnleath.

**That staff you can sneak out of Origin Quests is worthless against undead and skeletons.  It must be nature based becasue they are immune to it.  So if you decide to use it keep and Acolyte's staff for backup in those sections.

I do have Winter'sBreath Staff form Soldier's Peak, but I don't have the magic score to use it. 

Modifié par x-president, 04 février 2010 - 08:05 .

[AlgolagniaVolcae]

So you have to put points into strength. Why were you arguing over spellpower boosting attributes then when your findings are already corrupted by boosting strength? It's no wonder your flying swarm scaled with the character with you pumping points into strength and the fact damage depends on strength remains correct.

I stand by what I said, Flying Swarm's damage never increases past 19 under normal circumstances. Shifted forms also have very low attributes in comparison to your spellpower(75 only equals around 32 strength, and dex on the bear with 50 some constitution).

[RDeLove]

x-president wrote...

Yea, pumping strength early gives you early shapeshifter power.

I average low 20s and I'm only lvl 8.  The stomp on bear I can get 40 a single hit using rage.  I mostly have tier 1 spells because magic lvl isn't high enough.  I'm a few points from unlocking tier 3.

My CC spells are Glypph of Paralysis, Forcefield, & Mind Blast.

I also have the 2 spells from Soldier's Peak now.  Additional spells are Flame Blast, Stone Fist, Lightning, WInter's Breath, & Arcane Bolt.  I grabbed Flame Burst for the Spiders.  It's there weak spot.

Also I have Stone Armor and Mana Drain.  I grabbed Mana Drain becasue I am working towards Mana Clash and Stone Armor was a must becasue I want Earhquake to combo with shapeshifting.


I just finished Soldiers Peak and I rocked that Desire Demon in Bear form.  I was the last one standing.  Bear is doing really good against Skeletons and Undead.


Gear:
Mostly Mage Gear, but I'm probably gonna equip the Warden Commander's Armour I got from Sophia.  That should give me a good fire resistance fighting those Rage Demon in the Circle Tower which is where I am now.

I also have Helm of Honnleath.

**That staff you can sneak out of Origin Quests is worthless against undead and skeletons.  It must be nature based becasue they are immune to it.  So if you decide to use it keep and Acolyte's staff for backup in those sections.

I do have Winter'sBreath Staff form Soldier's Peak, but I don't have the magic score to use it. 

For my elf the staff was necessary, I only had arcane bolt to work with, but I also had team support.  I encountered similiar issue in the magi tower with that staff ( I go right after Lothering ).   On my second playthru however, I had dog go fetch me a nice tier 4 staff that can handle them just fine.   I believe its spirit damage, could never find any info and no dev has answered me as to the nature of the staff, the only thing I know for sure is that it works against them.   All my alts have been able to have dog "fetch" the staff consistently 12 for 12 right now, lol.  You can look for it in Lothering to have it early on.

[x-president]

AlgolagniaVolcae wrote...

So you have to put points into strength. Why were you arguing over spellpower boosting attributes then when your findings are already corrupted by boosting strength? It's no wonder your flying swarm scaled with the character with you pumping points into strength and the fact damage depends on strength remains correct.

I stand by what I said, Flying Swarm's damage never increases past 19 under normal circumstances. Shifted forms also have very low attributes in comparison to your spellpower(75 only equals around 32 strength, and dex on the bear with 50 some constitution).

Strength only helps with Dmg amount.  My Dex and Constitution boosts are still low becasue I have a weak spellscore.

I'm making a stronger shapeshifter using spell casting 2nd.  That's why I wanted to begin boosting strength early.  If I wanted spell casting primary I would have boosted magic more.


- I'm testing to see if I can have a very strong shapeshifter first and end up with a good spell caster in the end.  If I can do this, then it will make the Shapeshifting ability well worth getting instead of having it dismissed constantly.