273 réponses à ce sujet

[x-president]

RDeLove wrote...

For my elf the staff was necessary, I only had arcane bolt to work with, but I also had team support.  I encountered similiar issue in the magi tower with that staff ( I go right after Lothering ).   On my second playthru however, I had dog go fetch me a nice tier 4 staff that can handle them just fine.   I believe its spirit damage, could never find any info and no dev has answered me as to the nature of the staff, the only thing I know for sure is that it works against them.   All my alts have been able to have dog "fetch" the staff consistently 12 for 12 right now, lol.  You can look for it in Lothering to have it early on.

How and where can the dog fetch a staff?  I never knew that.  I'm in Circle Tower now have I passed it?


Currently my shapeshifter has 29.5 dmg for bear and spider.  I have the full warden's commander gear on and helm of honnleath.  I can go toe to toe with rage demons and abomniations no problem as bear.

There is the one boss abomination on the 3rd or 2nd floor and it was only me and wynne left.  The boss had like 50% health and I went toe to toe in bear form and just took it down.  I also had a white level abomination hitting me and it was no problem.

Wynne barely had to heal.  In bear form with the gear I have on, I get 34 armor and 55 defense score.  I have a feeling this is gonna be a powerhouse build in the end.

My PC-Mage is almost as strong in shapeshifting now as I was in the last game at lvl 22.  The only thing I'm lacking is Dex and Con.  That will increase as I raise spellscore so I'm not too worried about it now.



* Does anyone know if shapeshifting in the fade is also effected by your stats?  Or is it always the same?

[RDeLove]

Thats one of the reasons I put stats into to magic first, (to 38) I wanted to increase my survivability for the lower levels. I was unsure of what shapeshifting could do from all the stories I read; and therefore I figured the spellpower would give my spider some oomf. I was never really concerned about con, seeing as I finished game around lvl 20 or so.

Im thinking now it might be possible to get away with paralysis explosion, placing points to get that first. Then all strength from there, I just dont know starting with 10 seems like a big hump, but hey doesnt hurt to try.

You can have Dog "fetch" at anytime, you speak to him and choose "you see something boy?" or something like that and he runs off and brings back various items. I always have him do it right after fighting bandits entering Lothering. 

Modifié par RDeLove, 05 février 2010 - 01:53 .

[Mr_Raider]

Well most of your tier 3 CC spells (earthquake, cone of cold) require 25 magic. If you put all points in magic for the first 4 levels, you can easily make that. After that go str until you reach your target (42?) and back to magic.

[Mr_Raider]

From wiki:



Damage and armor penetration are both based on the mage's weapon. If a mage staff had been equipped prior to shifting, armor penetration can be very high - around mid-40's for the Staff of the Magister Lords. Although the inventory screen reports a higher damage if a powerful two handed weapon is equipped, the staff's significantly higher armor penetration will often offset this. Additionally mage staffs never miss, and the shapeshifted forms seem to stick to this convention. This renders the (unreported) attack score obsolete.



I sthis true?



If so, then the staff focus/arcane line ca be handy.

[High Magus]

Does Dex increase Spider damage?

Just wondering, as that would mean you could make yourself into a Spider Tank and still deal respectable damage, with Arcane Warrior to let you keep wearing heavy armour.

Or would that just depend on whether or not you equipped daggers?

[TBastian]

Flying Swarm's damage does increase with spellpower, but moving away from the swarm can sginificantly lower the damage received. Some enemies also have nature resistance, from the survival skill or other sources. I've seen the swarm do damage as high as near 40's when enemies are directly beside it and 30's are common enough. My Shapeshifter has 81 magic.

I've decided to help out at least this once more since I didn't have anything better to do at the moment. Here's a list of each form's fixed stats, based on spellpower.

All values taken with master shapeshifter, game with all current game patches. Estimated swarm damage was made on mabari hounds, distance near-medium (not directly beside, damage would be higher then but most people would still move away from you anyway so its not very ideal). I'm not sure if hounds have innate nature resists but at least they can't take survival. Values fluctuate, but you should be able to assess average damage for yourselves.
For the curious, what changing forms does is that it replaces your strength, dexterity and constitution with these values. It doesn't matter what your original attributes were - if they were lower than these, then they would be replaced. Note that if your attributes were higher, they would be carried over, which is what the build in this thread is all about.
The spellpower that determines the strength of the forms includes those from items but will ignore those from sustained spells. These attributes will replace your character's original attributes, so bonuses you have from items will work -after- these have taken effect.

SP 6 (magic 14)
fixed stats: STR, DEX, CON
spid 13 19 15
bear 16 18 19
swarm damage: around 6-11

sp 8
fixed stats:
spid 13 20 16
bear 17 19 20
swarm damage: around 7-12

sp 12
fixed stats:
spid 13 21 16
bear 17 20 21
swarm damage: around 8-12


sp 13
fixed stats:
spid 13 21 17
bear 18 20 21
swarm damage: around 7-14

sp 16
fixed stats:
spid 14 22 17
bear 18 20 21
swarm damage: around 7-15

at this point since the formula for the shapes' stats didn't seem to follow
a simple pattern of some sort(eg every 4, every 5, etc) I decided to
increase the magic attribute by sixes

sp 22
fixed stats:
spid 14 23 18
bear 19 21 23
swarm damage: around 7-17

sp 28
fixed stats:
spid 15 25 20
bear 21 23 25
swarm damage: around 10-18

sp 34
fixed stats:
spid 15 26 21
bear 22 24 26
swarm damage: around 11-20

sp 40
fixed stats:
spid 16 28 22
bear 23 25 28
swarm damage: around 12-22

sp 46
fixed stats:
spid 17 29 23
bear 24 26 29
swarm damage: around 13-24

sp 52
fixed stats:
spid 17 31 24
bear 25 27 31
swarm damage: around 13-26

sp 58
fixed stats:
spid 18 32 26
bear 27 29 32
swarm damage: around 15-27

sp 64
fixed stats:
spid 18 34 27
bear 28 30 34
swarm damage: around 18-28

sp 70
fixed stats:
spid 19 35 28
bear 28 31 35
swarm damage: around 20-31

I've also just discovered that poison doesn't seem to work on the form's attacks. I must have mistaken the extra damage from my nukes or from my other characters as my own, sorry for that. I would've recommended not taking Grease since you can just rely on traps, but since you're taking a mage party I guess that alternative is out.
Well, that's that. Good luck.

Modifié par TBastian, 05 février 2010 - 04:59 .

[x-president]

Mr_Raider wrote...

From wiki:

Damage and armor penetration are both based on the mage's weapon. If a mage staff had been equipped prior to shifting, armor penetration can be very high - around mid-40's for the Staff of the Magister Lords. Although the inventory screen reports a higher damage if a powerful two handed weapon is equipped, the staff's significantly higher armor penetration will often offset this. Additionally mage staffs never miss, and the shapeshifted forms seem to stick to this convention. This renders the (unreported) attack score obsolete.

I sthis true?

If so, then the staff focus/arcane line ca be handy.

Weapon Dmg has no effect on spider, bear or swarm dmg.  It does not stack and it strictly based off strength. Either with the forms boost if your strength is lower OR if your strength is higher then boost, it uses that value.

Example: You have strength of 18.  Using Bear with a high spellscore boosts you to 24.  Well Bear dmg would be based off 24.  But if you have say 26 with the same spellscore, then bear dmg would be based off 26 sense your base atrribut for strength is above the cap of 24.

If you equip any weapon it does not effect that dmg number.  I have tested this over and over and it does not stack.  You do gain the "Green" bonuses or a bonus from runes which carry over to the forms.


Bear and Spider always raise armor penatration 4 or 5 points only.  That will always be added to the weapons armor penatration level.  Staff of Magister Lord has 42 I think and if I shapeshift I get 47.

[x-president]

High Magus wrote...

Does Dex increase Spider damage?
Just wondering, as that would mean you could make yourself into a Spider Tank and still deal respectable damage, with Arcane Warrior to let you keep wearing heavy armour.
Or would that just depend on whether or not you equipped daggers?

No, strength is the single attribute that changes dmg or if you keep strength low, then spellscore would.  Dex would probably help you hit more consistantly like it would in human form.  I have never fully tested it.


Spiders can tank just as good as Bears.  When you go beyond the strength cap which is set by your spellscore, then both sider and bear have the same dmg.

I've tanked in both forms without a problem.

[x-president]

Updated the Videos on OP Post


These are 2 of them I added.  They are videos of my New PC Mage SHapeshifter.  They show how I can easily hold up against bosses and I am able to stay in shapeshifting the entire fight.  In fact I am kind of the tank and Allistar gets ignored at times.

Sloth Demon:
www.wegame.com/watch/sloth-demon/


Final Battle at the top of the Circle Tower:

- This was a fun fight.  I did it like 5 times in a row using different shapeshifting forms.  I tanked as bear and spider.  I also tried to get the killing sequence at the end, but it never would trigger.  In the video you'll see me kinda pull back right befor it dies.  I tried to get Allistar in there to finish it.  I'm not sure it's possible with that boss.  Every time I couldn't get it to trigger.

But this video shows me as Bear the entire time. 

www.wegame.com/watch/final-circle-tower-battle-bear/

[TBastian]

How very anti-climactic, that last Morrigan/Wynne attack.

Modifié par TBastian, 05 février 2010 - 05:16 .

[Knal1991]

youshould your wynne tactics to > mana level <10 use lesserlyrium potion, then she will always heal you...

[AlgolagniaVolcae]

TBastian wrote...

Flying Swarm's damage does increase with spellpower, but moving away from the swarm can sginificantly lower the damage received. Some enemies also have nature resistance, from the survival skill or other sources. I've seen the swarm do damage as high as near 40's when enemies are directly beside it and 30's are common enough. My Shapeshifter has 81 magic.

I've decided to help out at least this once more since I didn't have anything better to do at the moment. Here's a list of each form's fixed stats, based on spellpower.

All values taken with master shapeshifter, game with all current game patches. Estimated swarm damage was made on mabari hounds, distance near-medium (not directly beside, damage would be higher then but most people would still move away from you anyway so its not very ideal). I'm not sure if hounds have innate nature resists but at least they can't take survival. Values fluctuate, but you should be able to assess average damage for yourselves.
For the curious, what changing forms does is that it replaces your strength, dexterity and constitution with these values. It doesn't matter what your original attributes were - if they were lower than these, then they would be replaced. Note that if your attributes were higher, they would be carried over, which is what the build in this thread is all about.
The spellpower that determines the strength of the forms includes those from items but will ignore those from sustained spells. These attributes will replace your character's original attributes, so bonuses you have from items will work -after- these have taken effect.

SP 6 (magic 14)
fixed stats: STR, DEX, CON
spid 13 19 15
bear 16 18 19
swarm damage: around 6-11

sp 8
fixed stats:
spid 13 20 16
bear 17 19 20
swarm damage: around 7-12

sp 12
fixed stats:
spid 13 21 16
bear 17 20 21
swarm damage: around 8-12


sp 13
fixed stats:
spid 13 21 17
bear 18 20 21
swarm damage: around 7-14

sp 16
fixed stats:
spid 14 22 17
bear 18 20 21
swarm damage: around 7-15

at this point since the formula for the shapes' stats didn't seem to follow
a simple pattern of some sort(eg every 4, every 5, etc) I decided to
increase the magic attribute by sixes

sp 22
fixed stats:
spid 14 23 18
bear 19 21 23
swarm damage: around 7-17

sp 28
fixed stats:
spid 15 25 20
bear 21 23 25
swarm damage: around 10-18

sp 34
fixed stats:
spid 15 26 21
bear 22 24 26
swarm damage: around 11-20

sp 40
fixed stats:
spid 16 28 22
bear 23 25 28
swarm damage: around 12-22

sp 46
fixed stats:
spid 17 29 23
bear 24 26 29
swarm damage: around 13-24

sp 52
fixed stats:
spid 17 31 24
bear 25 27 31
swarm damage: around 13-26

sp 58
fixed stats:
spid 18 32 26
bear 27 29 32
swarm damage: around 15-27

sp 64
fixed stats:
spid 18 34 27
bear 28 30 34
swarm damage: around 18-28

sp 70
fixed stats:
spid 19 35 28
bear 28 31 35
swarm damage: around 20-31

I've also just discovered that poison doesn't seem to work on the form's attacks. I must have mistaken the extra damage from my nukes or from my other characters as my own, sorry for that. I would've recommended not taking Grease since you can just rely on traps, but since you're taking a mage party I guess that alternative is out.
Well, that's that. Good luck.

Spellpower 80 in my game, 19 damage (against humans, not beasts). It's been 19 damage since lvl 12-13 and I am lvl 21 now. I'll just load the game up and take a few screenshots of the stats, etc.

The entire reason I quit using shapeshifting is because I was seeing diminishing returns on the damage from flying swarm(Lothering, etc it did great but now not so much).

[x-president]

Knal1991 wrote...

youshould your wynne tactics to > mana level <10 use lesserlyrium potion, then she will always heal you...

She would drink me dry.   Certain things I prefer to just micromanage.  Plus I like to set her up wiht mana regen gear.

[Knal1991]

99 lyrium dust is around 1 g and 99 flasks 1,5 g, so it's notthat much...suit yourself, (especially not if she rejuvantes herself, she then will only use it when she's unable to cast any rejuvanation spell...)



vessel of the spirit works too for the extra mana

[x-president]

Knal1991 wrote...

99 lyrium dust is around 1 g and 99 flasks 1,5 g, so it's notthat much...suit yourself, (especially not if she rejuvantes herself, she then will only use it when she's unable to cast any rejuvanation spell...)

vessel of the spirit works too for the extra mana

How good does vessel of spirit work?  I've never really tried it.  I only seem to need mana in boss fights or longer battles.  Majority of the time I don't need them and that is a main reason why I don't use that in the tactics menu.

Plus I do have her rejuvinating herself.

[x-president]

I hit lvl 12 and have the complete shapeshifter line now.

My stats at 12: (Bonuses From the Fade)

Base stats No boosts:
S - 46
D - 15
W - 18
M - 25
Cu - 17
Co - 12

With Gear Boosts
S - 51
D - 20
W - 23
M - 30
Cu - 22
Co - 21

- So I hit my Strength mark that I planned and beyond.  I'm happy with Magic level.  I can acess most Tier 3 spells.  The build is going just like I want it, strong Shapeshifting 1st, spell casting 2nd. 


I just finished up Jarvia.  It was smooth sailing.  I rolled through most of it as a Spider and some Bear.  I almost beat Jarvia staying in Swarm the entire fight.  But my companions had to run into the death traps.  

I'm headed for the Deep Roads, but I'm gonna make a stop in Denerim for a better staff. 


Now with Master Shapeshifter I'm gonna see how effective Overwhelm will be with the new build.  It should tear up.  Plus I have both Grease and Earthquake and I wanna see how effectively I can combo it with Swarm.

From now on I'm most likely gonna just pump in Magic.  Getting my spellscore up will help my dex and con boosts which I would like higher.

[beancounter501]

Does spell bloom or rejuvenate or mass rejuvenate heal the swarm? I like the swarm but I can never stay in that shape for as long as I would like.

[x-president]

beancounter501 wrote...

Does spell bloom or rejuvenate or mass rejuvenate heal the swarm? I like the swarm but I can never stay in that shape for as long as I would like.

I think it does.  It says you can't regenerate mana while in swarm, but I think gear and spells can.  I haven't fully tested this but I will.

The trick is not to stay still.

Modifié par x-president, 05 février 2010 - 10:25 .

[x-president]

Update:

My Bear and Spider are rockin right now.  In bear I can drop emissaries within seconds using overwhelm.  With Bear I'm averarging upper 30s sometimes 40 in normal hits.  Spider is pretty much the same, but it seems to average mid 30s.  The build is working out great.  I'm tempted to just reach lvl 36 magic and cut it off.  Possibly add more to strength or go for constitution to see how much abuse my shapeshifter can take.  Right now with some support from Wynne, I can do some serious dmg.


Thay one fight you get from chanter's board with the Boss level Emissary, I overwhelmed him at like 75% or greater health and just tore him up with bear.  I was kinda surprised how much dmg I did.  I almost killed theboss with a single overwhelm hit.

Swarm is showing a high dmg score, but I'm not getting it.  Swarm maybe tied in more with spellscore.  It doesn't make sense becasue last game when I raised strength swarm damage increased.


Right now I'm crusing through the Deep Roads, lvl 13 atm.  Also I had really good success with the Spider against one of the Revanants.  I went toe to toe with Allistar and spider melee and wynne and morrigan shooting.  I barely even spread out and dropped him fairly quick.

[TBastian]

In my previous post I already included estimated swarm damage. The AoE damage is different from the one you see in your character screen, as apparently the swam doesn't even use its normal attack at all. The AoE damage IS tied to spellpower, my findings support this, but it's just hard to pinpoint the exact damage since moving even just a little bit away from the swam can already cause the damage to fluctuate.
I wouldn't recommend increasing constitution unless you can get it past 26 for the bear to benefit from it. According to my table your forms should have around sp 28-sp 34 stats once you reach 36 magic. The stats for con at those values is around are 21 for spider, 26 for bear. So even if you start adding points in con now it will still be a while before you manage to overcome the base con of the form. Seeing as that's already worth around 5 levels or so worth of stat points, it doesn't seem worth it.
I've never seen the swarm regen mana, even with Spell Bloom. Usually though it's the damage your Shapeshifter receives that ends the swarm, and I don't think there's any way mana regen can overcome that.

Modifié par TBastian, 06 février 2010 - 05:59 .

[x-president]

TBastian wrote...

In my previous post I already included estimated swarm damage. The AoE damage is different from the one you see in your character screen, as apparently the swam doesn't even use its normal attack at all. The AoE damage IS tied to spellpower, my findings support this, but it's just hard to pinpoint the exact damage since moving even just a little bit away from the swam can already cause the damage to fluctuate.
I wouldn't recommend increasing constitution unless you can get it past 26 for the bear to benefit from it. According to my table your forms should have around sp 28-sp 34 stats once you reach 36 magic. The stats for con at those values is around are 21 for spider, 26 for bear. So even if you start adding points in con now it will still be a while before you manage to overcome the base con of the form. Seeing as that's already worth around 5 levels or so worth of stat points, it doesn't seem worth it.

Yea, I was thinking about con later and figured it wouldn't be worth it.

On the Swarm dmg, I forgot I had Nat dmg boosts.  I think I had 20% to 30% boosts on my last playthrough.  I think that's why I was getting low to mid 20s.

[Knal1991]

x-president wrote...

Knal1991 wrote...

99 lyrium dust is around 1 g and 99 flasks 1,5 g, so it's notthat much...suit yourself, (especially not if she rejuvantes herself, she then will only use it when she's unable to cast any rejuvanation spell...)

vessel of the spirit works too for the extra mana

How good does vessel of spirit work?  I've never really tried it.  I only seem to need mana in boss fights or longer battles.  Majority of the time I don't need them and that is a main reason why I don't use that in the tactics menu.

Plus I do have her rejuvinating herself.

quite good actually: http://dragonage.wik...l_of_the_Spirit

also played  around with the toolset for the first time, I tried to makea strong shapeshifting staff, It worked, however did not turn out exactly as I wanted a bit too overpowered on certain areas , I might try to upload it (If i know how) and If you want it (made two infact will post details soon)

details on the staffs soon....

[x-president]

Knal1991 wrote...
quite good actually: http://dragonage.wik...l_of_the_Spirit

also played  around with the toolset for the first time, I tried to makea strong shapeshifting staff, It worked, however did not turn out exactly as I wanted a bit too overpowered on certain areas , I might try to upload it (If i know how) and If you want it (made two infact will post details soon)

details on the staffs soon....

What's up with that "Augmented" section?  Is that after patch?  That instant mana and health gain is pretty sweet.  I'm definitely gonna start using that more.  Plus you get a really nice boost to spellpower.

[x-president]

*** Updated OP ***

- Added a little to bear, swarm, and spell sections.
- Added Revenant video showing the strength of Bear



Here's Bear vs Revenant video:

- Just kinda shows the consistant dmg a Bear can do to a Revenant.  I was lvl 13 at the time with my current shapeshifter build.  I averaged mid 30s per strike and on the Stomp you can see I get a really nice hit at 64 dmg towards the end.  I did use rage in the beginning.

www.wegame.com/watch/revenant-vs-bear/

Modifié par x-president, 06 février 2010 - 07:25 .

[Mr_Raider]

Does haste increase attack speed in shifted forms?