273 réponses à ce sujet

[Knal1991]

@president-X : If you interested in custom made shapeshifter items:

Previously I said it was too overpowered, well it appears not be that overpowered....as your not that stronger then a warrior or someone holding the "'staff of the magister lords''..one was supposed to be a high level one, while other one was supposed to be midlevel.


Weapons:

Staff of the Imperial Archon ( iron):

damage: 4.00
Armor penetration: 20.00
Range: 50
Spellpower: 1

+ 10 damage
+ 15 defense
+  5 to all attributed
+17.5 % nature damage,
+ 10 nature damage

it may seem much, but for a staff it quite frankly sucks, as spellpower determines damage with staff, not damage itself... as it appears to be... when you turn into an animal you can kill most normal lvled enemies in 3-4 hits, just like Sten does in my game...

^gold version of the ''Staff of the magister lords'', using the gold colors from cailans plate thus it automatically turned Iron in properties...


Avvar Morph Relic (darkspawn like staff, silverite)

damage: 6.00
Armor penetration: 35.00
Range: 56
Spellpower: 6


+10 strenth
+9 defense
+10 spellpower
+10 armor
+17.5 % nature damage,
+ 10 nature damage

This one is overpowered, though ment to be midlevel so I screwed up...
I haven't really tested, have it on morrigan but beleive the stats are beneficial...

Armor:

Robes of The Imperial Archon:

goes nicely with the archon staff I made:

+ 11 armor
+ 11 spellpower
+ 11 strenth
+ 11 willpower
40% fire resistance

If you want these, I could try to upload it to Nexus....HOWEVER, I think I do have to upload every item that I have made in one package, due to possible scripting issues that might or might not occur.... it's not like it's that much though, and mainly for mages..., you can always sell it for some nice moneys or destroy it if you don't want to money cheat....

other stuff are:

Lady of the forest longsword
Witherfang towershield
Horror Of the Arcane (arcane warrior twohandedsword)
Arcane shield, buckler, kite and tower (arcane warrior shield with active spellshield)
Blood corrupted staff (supposed to be for blood mage only but forgot the requirements)


Let me know if you want this ok?

[x-president]

I usually do not use mods.  If you wanna upload it you can, but most likely I won't use it any time soon.  I plan on trying some different playthroughs and they will most likely be light use or no use with shapeshifters.


Looks like some cool items.

[Mr_Raider]

You may want to revise the armor section. For spider and swarm, it takes the highest of the two armor ratings, your human or shifted form. Bear seems to be a whole different story. I have yet to figure out how it calculates armor in bear shape, but it seems to take your actually gear in to account.

[x-president]

Mr_Raider wrote...

You may want to revise the armor section. For spider and swarm, it takes the highest of the two armor ratings, your human or shifted form. Bear seems to be a whole different story. I have yet to figure out how it calculates armor in bear shape, but it seems to take your actually gear in to account.

Interesting?  What spellscore are you at?

I double checked Bear.  I'm currently at a Spellscore of 48.  Bear is stacking +10 on to armor score with any armor I tried on. 

I think Legion armor has the higest at 33.  I had a score of 34 when I shapeshifted into Bear.  In fact any armour I tried on it always added +10.

Spider stayed the same as well as swarm with anythign I tried on.  I'm curious to see what your spellscore is becasue I've been wearin Wardern Commanders Armor for pretty much the entire game and Bear wasn't adding a +10 in the beginning.  I stayed at my human armor score.

So I wonder when I breached the point with spellscore.  So I think it still does take the greater of the 2 numbers, but I passed it up and now it alwasy gives me the +10.

[TBastian]

I'll defer to your observations regarding SS with heavy gear. Here from the pure magic side though I've noticed only a very slight boost to armor from spellpower, something like +1 every 30 points or so... and that's it. Bummer, yep. I think the highest I've seen is 19 or 20 base armor for my Bear Form, using only robes (no armor bonuses). Which is why I plan on trying an AW/SS build when I have the time.
Base armor for Bear Form seems to be 16 or 17, + the tiny bonus from spellpower. Which is why I normally focus on dodge or def when picking arcane gear.

Modifié par TBastian, 13 février 2010 - 04:40 .

[x-president]

I wonder why I'm getting a +10 boost only with Bear.  I wish I would kept better tabs on it becasue I am almost positive I didn't have that from the start.

Actually I could load older saves to find out when it happened.  I'm gonna have to check this out.

 

[Mr_Raider]

I'm testing with a spellpower of 109, all magic level 20 and the final reason staff.



NAked in human form I get 2 armor: 1 from shifter, 1 from combat training IV



Naked in bear shape: 20



Wades superior massive plate

Human: 24

Bear: 34



Evon's Mail: Human 24

Bear: 34



Wade's full suit massive + helm of honleath:

Human: 35

Bear: 45



Conclusion:

If human armor is less than 20, it sets at 20 in bear form.

If it's higher, it adds +10



I'm guessing the numbers scale with spellpower

[x-president]

Mr_Raider wrote...

I'm testing with a spellpower of 109, all magic level 20 and the final reason staff.

NAked in human form I get 2 armor: 1 from shifter, 1 from combat training IV

Naked in bear shape: 20

Wades superior massive plate
Human: 24
Bear: 34

Evon's Mail: Human 24
Bear: 34

Wade's full suit massive + helm of honleath:
Human: 35
Bear: 45

Conclusion:
If human armor is less than 20, it sets at 20 in bear form.
If it's higher, it adds +10

I'm guessing the numbers scale with spellpower

According to your numbers,  I am getting the same amounts with half the spellscore number.  I get +10 plus my armor ratings.

[TBastian]

Base armor for the bear isn't always 20 though, he got 20 base armor because he has around 100 spellpower divided by 30 (I assume it's 30) which is ~3. 17 (default bear form armor) +3 (bonus from spellpower) = 20.
Basically as long as your armor is higher than the bear's, then you get to keep your armor rating + a free 10 point bonus.

Oh my, these calculations reveal a lot... apparently the developers were actually anticipating that players would resort to using heavy armor on their Shapeshifters. And there are only two ways to do so - go strength build, or get AW.
So. Jackpot. I think I really need to start working on a SS/AW build asap.

Modifié par TBastian, 13 février 2010 - 07:28 .

[Knal1991]

x-president wrote...

I usually do not use mods.  If you wanna upload it you can, but most likely I won't use it any time soon.  I plan on trying some different playthroughs and they will most likely be light use or no use with shapeshifters.


Looks like some cool items.

for some reason, I did not get the custom items in a new playthrough...meaning it will only affect your current ones... and add items too... (Ill see what I can do)

[Mr_Raider]

Oh my, these calculations reveal a lot... apparently the developers were actually anticipating that players would resort to using heavy armor on their Shapeshifters. And there are only two ways to do so - go strength build, or get AW.
So. Jackpot. I think I really need to start working on a SS/AW build asap.

I guess it's the diff between a straight magic build and a split magic/str build. The problem, according to this:

http://dragonage.wik...hifter/Research

Is that even with ridiculous spellpower values, you won't hit a half decent strength value. Your attacks will auto-hit and you will have good armor penetration due to the high level staves, but your damage will be weak at best.  I also don't know how effective overwhelm will be.

[TBastian]

That's only for Bear Form's damage though. The good news is that you can be as tough as the magic/str build if you have to, while retaining your nuking potential. So apparently there are indeed (at least) two ways to build a Shapeshifter: magic/str favors Bear, and pure magic favors Flying Swarm. In the event that someone decides to make a dex build for spider, that would be... interesting (Poison Spit is dex dependent, and we really don't know as much about Spider as Bear). I'm just gonna try out the AW path because the specifics to the magic/str build are well already taken cared of, and a dex build is... obscure. Probably won't work, but meh. The developers kept the +10 armor bonus hidden, didn't they?

Modifié par TBastian, 13 février 2010 - 03:46 .

[Mr_Raider]

I actually have a low level shifter in the mage tower. I'll respec him to all magic + AW, and only take AW level 1 spell for armor. We'll see how it works. I'm guessing I'll be 60-70% caster.

[TBastian]

Yes, that's probably gonna be the case. I guess such a build would be best used in a party that lacks a real tanker. Then when fighting bosses like high dragons your Shapeshifter can serve as the party tanker, besides your (normal) casting role and DPS role. I'm gonna be focusing on Flying Swarm on my run though.
BTW, an interesting mechanic of Dragon Age compared to other similar games is that it allows you to switch armors while fighting. So it is also possible to keep a casting set, and a another armor set for when you change forms. As long as you can wear good armor (so I guess that the dex build is out) then you can use a specific set to boost your strength, get high health regen or max out your armor before Shapeshifting. Opens up a lot of options for the Shapeshifter while your spells are down. The good news is that switching back to human form happens instantly, so it's possible you'll never fall out of sync without your spellcasting as long as you time it right.

Edit:
Yep. Dex is definitely out. So that leaves the two builds - the str/magic build (functional, killer forms), and the pure magic build (bag-of-tricks, situational forms).

Modifié par TBastian, 13 février 2010 - 05:58 .

[Mr_Raider]

The pure magic build will probably make a better tank, since your con, dex defense and armor will be better.

[TBastian]

I was just working on eliminating the dex route, actually. I'm sure now that you have to choose between magic/str build, or heavy/pure magic. Yeah, I agree.

Edit: I decided to test the AW/SS on an endgame SS I had, and so far it's working as expected. Damage is much lower than the magic/str build's, although it's not neglible either.  My other stats are a lot higher. The Spider does too little damage to be useful, sadly, although the Flying Swarm is currently doing 40's at point blank range.
I think SS is currently working very well as a bag-of-tricks kind of specialization for this build, except you are practically forced to take AW to make it work. This, I think, is the main disadvantage.
I have yet to make more tests and will post if I find anything else out of the ordinary.
I'm beginning to think the magic/str route is best for a "default" SS.

Modifié par TBastian, 13 février 2010 - 07:43 .

[x-president]

Pure Magic build is not good if you plan on tanking the Bear or Spider 75% or more of the time.  You lack in physical resistance and dmg.  Spellscore will never make up for that.  Even if you go Arcane Warrior, it will not increase you damage or your physical resistance.  Aracne Warrior is only gonn ahelp you equip better armor while shapeshifted.

Now if you wanna do more spellcasting, then yea I'd reccomend pure magic.


My current game I did a strong shapeshifter build mostly strength and I can tank any battle.  In fact I plan to fight Flemeth solo as a Bear with healing backup from Wynne.  But I can pretty much tank as a Bear or Spider in any battle I want.  I could easily fill the role of a Warrior.


Also a pure Dex build most likely would not work becasue you'd really have to jack up dex to get past the cap boost you get from shapeshifting.  Shapeshifting really gives you nice dex and con boosts and you'd have to waste a lot of points to get above the cap for it to matter.  Unlike Strength where it really doesn't take that much.

[TBastian]

Pure Magic build is not good if you plan on tanking the Bear or Spider 75% or more of the time. You lack in physical resistance and dmg. Spellscore will never make up for that. Even if you go Arcane Warrior, it will not increase you damage or your physical resistance. Aracne Warrior is only gonn ahelp you equip better armor while shapeshifted.

Pure magic forms actually have very high physical resist, mine is around 30 to 40, because of very high dex and con, and decent strength. You're right though. Physical damage is the one thing pure magic just can't make up for, and I'm doing less than half the damage of magic/str build. Pure magic with AW is actually tougher than magic/str, so it still has situational uses.
Besides that I haven't noticed anything else noteworthy from the pure magic AW/SS build. I used a respec/edit mod to redistribute stats and skills, and so far I've maxed everything (all stats 100+) and I've noticed nothing extraordinary from Bear/Spider. Maybe Mr_Raider will notice something I didn't.

While trying out Flying Swarm I think I'm going to try and make a Shapeshifter build (for Morrigan and Wynne) that can nuke and take care of itself even while in Bear Form/Spider Form/Flying Swarm. This is because my goal is not to try and replace warrior (that would be pointless), but to make a mage that can effectively switch between melee fighting and casting. This is different from the AW who's basically a mage who uses a sword and relies on sustained spells and buffs/debuffs instead of active nukes.
The reason why learned gamers disdain the Shapeshifter is not because it's weak and can't tank bosses (you yourself have proven that it's a pretty solid build), the reason is because it deprives them of a mage and forces them to take a healer.

Yeah I tried that personally. I even raised dex to 80's-100's with mods just for testing, and the forms barely gain anything from it.

Modifié par TBastian, 13 février 2010 - 09:36 .

[x-president]

I wouldn't say pure magic has high physical resistance.

My current physical resistance is 60 and as Bear it goes to 76.

Stats:

S - 65
D - 21
W - 35
M - 42
Cu - 23
Co - 24

Spellscore 52

Mental Resistance 35

I have Warden Commander's Armor, Helm of Honnealth, Key to the City, Andruil's Belt, Spellward, Ring of Ages, & Staff of Magister Lord.


Also here's a video of the Blood Mage Leader fight in the abandoned building.  My overwhelm alone took 50% of his health in a single hit.

Also did Ser Cauthrein and she was easily overwhelmed by Morrgian and me in both spider and bear form.  Morrigan has about 1/2 of the strength I have.  We basically took turns jumping her with overwhelm and it totally neutralized Ser Cauthrein.

I've found Spider & Bear can Overwhelm equally as good, but Bear tends to do a little better dmg on average.


Blood Mage Leader Vid:
www.wegame.com/watch/blood-mage-leader/


- Also I am about to fight Flemeth and I'm gonna try to solo her with just healing support from Wynne.  I'll record it and post up the fight.  I'm around lvl 19 or 20 currently.

[Mr_Raider]

How well does overwhelm work with low strength?



Also, for the high magic build, have you tried equipping str boosting items? You should be able to get a boosted str of 38 by end game with items.

[x-president]

Mr_Raider wrote...

How well does overwhelm work with low strength?

Also, for the high magic build, have you tried equipping str boosting items? You should be able to get a boosted str of 38 by end game with items.

It's ok.  You can neutralize a Boss which is good, but dmg wise maybe 1/4 to 1/8 health depending how much armor the Boss has.

What do you consider low?  Mid to upper 20s I'd say it's possible to take 1/4 health.


Even if you use strength boost items, if you can't get past teh spellscore cap it doesn't really do anything.  Max strength boost with items is 8 possibly wiht the Fade 12.  So you start at 10 that'll get you 22.  That wouldn't be high enough to get past the cap especially at high spellscore.

You'd have to be above 30 maybe mid 30s.

[Mr_Raider]

I meant if you equip items that give +x to str, that bonus transfers over to the shifted form, no?

[x-president]

Mr_Raider wrote...

I meant if you equip items that give +x to str, that bonus transfers over to the shifted form, no?

Yea it does, but if you are below the spellscore boost it won't help.  Any attribute bonus carries over but only makes a difference if you are above the boost number.


It always takes the higher of the 2 numbers, boost or base number.

[Mr_Raider]

Looks like going with a minimal strength of 42 is desireable then to get access to all armors. That would still allow for magic of 50+ for human shifters.



Have you tried taking SH as the 2nd spec to see if the passive health regen works in shifted form?

[x-president]

Mr_Raider wrote...

Looks like going with a minimal strength of 42 is desireable then to get access to all armors. That would still allow for magic of 50+ for human shifters.

Have you tried taking SH as the 2nd spec to see if the passive health regen works in shifted form?

Well if you just want better armor, I'd go with AW.  With low 20s you can get wade's armor which is very nice if you didn't want to go AW.  Also I think Warden Commanders is low strength to arm.  I've been using that armor the entire game.  You get decent fire resistance and mana bonus.  Plus a good amor rating.

I have set Wynne up with SS as a secondary.  I'm not really sure if the SH health regen worked or not.  Sense she was my healer, she didn't use SS as much as I would like.

Imo a SS/SH combo isn't the best becasue you always need the healer and SS kinda gets pushed to the side.  Sense you can't heal in different forms, the healer is very important.

Modifié par x-president, 14 février 2010 - 12:31 .