273 réponses à ce sujet

[motoko2000]

wow... thank you for this thread. very interesting, wants to make me try that shapeshifting build now!

[x-president]

I just basically soloed Flemeth with my Bear using Wynne only to heal and it was no problem.

I'm uploading the vid now.

[TBastian]

I'd be very interested in watching it. Btw did you really just go 2 strength, 1 magic with your build or did you just add points wherever you felt it was needed? I think reaching the tier 4 spells would take too long if you just add 1 point in magic per level.

Modifié par TBastian, 14 février 2010 - 02:46 .

[x-president]

TBastian wrote...

I'd be very interested in watching it. Btw did you really just go 2 strength, 1 magic with your build or did you just add points wherever you felt it was needed? I think reaching the tier 4 spells would take too long if you just add 1 point in magic per level.

Actually I went a little different.  It did take me a long time to reach all the spells.

This was my leveling up to 12:

Initiall I went all Strength so I started as Human.

Following levels:

lvl     S       M

2       2        1
3       3
4       2         1
5        3
6        2         1
7       3
8        2        1
9        3
10       2        1
11       3
12       2        1


- Without the fade or boosts I had 43 Strength at lvl 12 and 22 Magic.  I was kinda held back in my spell selection.  Going through the fade helped, but I did pump up Magic after that until I hit around 36 Magic.  With boosts from gear I have a spellscore around low 50s.

- I didn't think about the limitation on the spells at first, but decided to just go with it abd see how everything turned out.  It did work out good. 

- Now I am dumping all points into Strength after hitting the spellscore and magic level I wanted.



Here's the video with Flemeth.  It went very smooth kinda as expected.  I kept the same armor I've been using all game.  If I would have increased fire protection a little more I would have been even better.

Also at the end you will see my switch out and go barefists.  I was trying to get the finishing kill at the end using barefists.  I'm not sure you can but I tried and failed. 

- Also you can see what the dragons really wanna do to you.  They just wanna grab you and rip you apart.  They don't waste any time.  LOL

www.wegame.com/watch/flemeth-bear/

[x-president]

I just rewatched the video and saw soemthing very interesting.

The dragon actually was killing itself with the fireballs.  I was wondering what those little 2's and 3s poping up were and that is the DoT from the fire.

In the end the dragon actually finished itself off.  I was wondering how it died sense I could barely land a shot with my fists.


That was one wicked grab at the end though.  LOL  That was fun to watch again gettign tossed up in the area 2 or 3 times and just getting whipped around and slammed on the ground.  I'm surprised I lived through that.




Edit:  I went back and tried the Spider, but it didn't do so well.  I also had trouble keeping aggro.  The Bear keeps it's attention much easier.  The dragon would attack Wynne a lot of the time using the Spider.

Modifié par x-president, 14 février 2010 - 04:53 .

[x-president]

I did it with my Spider for the heck of it.  I got rid of all party members but Wynne and I.  It was much easier not having it set on hold and micromanage the attacking.

I did have some troubles wiht the Spider at first, but I got it to work.  I did switch out to Wade's Superior Drakeskin armor for better fire resistance.


Spider did work out fine.  One plus was with the Poison Spit.  I hit everytime with that in the high teens for 3 clicks.  I didn't try and use web all that much, but I think it would have worked.

I controlled Wynne mostly so she wouldn't attack and I could regulate the healing easier.


Spider vs Flemeth:

www.wegame.com/watch/flemeth-spider/

[Mr_Raider]

Did the dragon not knock you down with the tail swipe? That seems to be my AWs biggest issue.

[Mr_Raider]

x-president wrote...


Actually I went a little different.  It did take me a long time to reach all the spells.

This was my leveling up to 12:

Initiall I went all Strength so I started as Human.

Following levels:

lvl     S       M

2       2        1
3       3
4       2         1
5        3
6        2         1
7       3
8        2        1
9        3
10       2        1
11       3
12       2        1


- Without the fade or boosts I had 43 Strength at lvl 12 and 22 Magic.  I was kinda held back in my spell selection.  Going through the fade helped, but I did pump up Magic after that until I hit around 36 Magic.  With boosts from gear I have a spellscore around low 50s.

- I didn't think about the limitation on the spells at first, but decided to just go with it abd see how everything turned out.  It did work out good. 

- Now I am dumping all points into Strength after hitting the spellscore and magic level I wanted.

I did something different. I went all magic for the first 6 levels to quickly get it to 35. This allows me to get blizzard and earthquake early as well as equip final reason staff. This makes ostagar much easier. Then I got Bear shape just before hitting the dog fight before lothering, and went all strength. At level 9, you get 23 str, which still supercedes bear and spider shifted strength. After the fade, I had almost 30 str with helm of honleath equipped.

[x-president]

Mr_Raider wrote...

Did the dragon not knock you down with the tail swipe? That seems to be my AWs biggest issue.

It's more like a stun.  You kinda fall straight down or drop to your belly and get back up.  Spider and Bear can't be pulled, knocked back, or grabbed.

You can be stunned or you drop straight down without moving.  Same thing when the Ogre charges you, you just drop and never get knocked back.

[TBastian]

I've been running some tests BTW and here are some of my results.

Rage actually adds +10 strength, so it increases damage and attack if you're not using a staff. A staff auto-hits but can't crit, but one advantage of the Shapeshifter is that he can reach very high str/dex without actually investing lots of hard points in these attributes. A str/magic build with lots of items that boost attributes can reach a very high attack value while in bear/spider form, so gaining a chance to crit on attack (as well as taking advantage of sword/shield bonuses) by using other weapons besides a staff might be useful when not fighting bosses or heavily armored opponents. In any case, in all my tests Overwhelm hits never missed even when a sword was used before Shapeshifting.

Increasing dex can actually work, because there are lots of mage and light armor equipment which grant heavy bonuses to def. Not tested on nightmare, but I got Morrigan to add +2 dex every other level in normal and she's quite devastating with Death Hex (she's not using a staff when Shapeshifting). She can actually tank most melee enemies very well, although against bosses I have to keep her in human form.

Death Hex has no effect on Overwhelm.

Modifié par TBastian, 15 février 2010 - 10:48 .

[Mr_Raider]

The armor penetration listed in the tooltip when you have a staff equipped seems to be incorrect. When shifted I was getting 6 damage against revenants, with a str of 30, and a lsited armor epenetration of of almost 40.

[TBastian]

I think that's the Aura of Weakness working. I've also noticed some peculiar damage values when fighting elites and boss types though. It might also have something to do with how damage is calculated in nightmare. I'll make more armor penetration tests later.



I've been doing more tests and so far double Overwhelm (spider->spit->overwhelm->bear->overwhelm) with maxed out strength and only enough magic for spell prerequisites is brutal. Took Anti-Magic and Telekinesis so the casting time isn't really a problem. However spellcasting in general really sucks for this character, so I'm considering another build at the moment. I want a mage who can also fight well, since it's rather pointless to try and replace warriors.

[x-president]

I've benn playing the High Dragon.  Some thign I found.

- Bear kinda stops it from jumping spots.  It seems like it has a tendacy to lock the High Dragon down in one position.  It doesn't always work though.  If everyone is in too close it has a better chance to move.

- Seems harder to keep Aggro if you are too close.  The High Dragon would turn on my mages and chase them down.

- Also it defintiely can take more dmg then Flemeth.  I still am getting consistant dmg against it with Bear.  Using Stomp I cn still hit mid 80s, but I'm not sure if that's with rage or not.  Wihtout Rage I know I was getting inthe 60s with stomp.

I haven't tried it yet with just Wynne and Bear yet.  I only faught it as a group.  It walmost seems harder because the High Dragon seems to attack everyone.  Allistar was a waste and would die in the first minute.  The High Dragon is relentless with grabbing.  Allistar was it's personal chew toy.  LOL


**Also I think I'm gonna add a Boss fight or Main fight section.  Maybe something that ties in with my videos.  Something that gives tips or benefits to fighting bosses using shapeshifting.

Modifié par x-president, 15 février 2010 - 06:45 .

[TBastian]

Especially bosses and/or fights with enemies that use dispel magic, yeah. Those are among the worst.



Rage adds +10 strength, so Slam should give you 80+ damage with Rage. Seems consistent.



It seems that the forms don't actually gain bonuses from weapons, based on my tests. Cold/Lightning/Fire damage bonuses are ignored when changing forms, and so far I haven't noticed any improvement when using weapons with Cold Iron (+damage to undead) runes. Defensive bonuses do get carried over though, including those from shields. Dual-wielding doesn't seem to do anything. If you want your attacks to crit it seems using your bare hands work just as well as using a two-handed sword, unless the two-handed sword has some nifty defensive bonuses.



I'm currently trying to use dodge equipment. I've decided to forego massive armor unless I have to tank a specific boss, and against some bosses even 60+ armor doesn't seem to help (Ser Cauthrien's damage is ridiculous). Anyway the damage gap between normal monsters and bosses is huge. Picked Spirit Healer as a second specialization, Life Ward is very nice and lasts a while.

[TBastian]

Modifié par TBastian, 15 février 2010 - 10:16 .

[x-president]

Yea, I had the same results with other weapons.  There is no weapon that I know of that effects spider, bear, or swarm dmg.  That is strictly based on strength.

I did find the green bonuses do carry over.  I never did test it fully though.


I just completed my game.  I stayed in Bear form the entire Archdemon fight.  I was firing the Ballistas as a Bear.  That fight went really smooth.

- One thing I did notice.  The Glenlock Master Assassin fight I was actually getting misses as a bear.  I'm almost positive I was.  I was hit with "Mark of Death" so I don't know if that had anything to do with it or that guy had some good gear.

Do you only see your misses or can you see other teamates?

[x-president]

Has anyone compared the Dog to the shapeshifting forms?  I wonder if it can't be grabbed, pulled, or knocked back  like bear and spider.

Also do the Ranger Summoning forms have the same benefits?

[TBastian]

Yes, you can see other people miss. Maybe it was the assassin who kept missing? I've also heard that the Evasion skill works differently from normal defense and dodge, so maybe assassin had the skill.



Dog seems to be the similar to the forms. I've never seen dog get knocked back, the same with Shale. Dog is unique since he is affected by bonuses like Flame and Frost Weapons, though. I guess it's only fair.

As for the Ranger's summons most of the time they just get ignored, so I'm not sure. They're not very good at holding aggro and usually only die from AoE's in my games. They also don't get affected by Flame and Frost Weapons, so I assume they're closer to the Shapeshifter froms.

[shree420]

x-president wrote...

<snip>  I was firing the Ballistas as a Bear.  That fight went really smooth. <snip>

That's one versatile bear!

[flagondotcom]

x-president wrote...

Has anyone compared the Dog to the shapeshifting forms?  I wonder if it can't be grabbed, pulled, or knocked back  like bear and spider.

Also do the Ranger Summoning forms have the same benefits?

I've fought Flemeth and the HD with various combos of folks, and both Dog and the ranger-summoned Bear have the same behavior (can end up "kneeling" in the animation after a knockdown attempt, but never actually get knocked over backwards, grabbed, or pulled).  Shale is in the same situation--so I usually take one of those three with me for the big dragon fights.  Zevran's bear actually got the killing blow against Flemeth last go-round AFAICT, since the party showed Flemeth as most powerful opponent killed but none of the party members listed her as their personal kill.

Very interesting work with Shapeshifter...I'm still finding new ways to play this game, and maybe I'll get a chance to try a PC mage SS playthrough...

[x-president]

Yea those bears can do many things.


- Well I'm gonna shift gears out of Shapeshifting for a bit on my next game.  In fact I'm eliminating mages all together to do something totally different.

But if there are any questions or requests on tactics or battles let me know.  The 2 games I played Shapeshifters I have saves at all the major encounters and can test things out or do video requests if needed.

Plus I may add some more info to the OP later on or if anyone finds something new I can add it as well.

[TBastian]

I've been doing more research and testing into shapeshifting lately, and I've discovered several more things.

The Shapeshifter is in fact a unique rendition of the classic warrior-mage. It basically allows you to become a warrior-character by choosing a form, but unlike the Arcane Warrior the forms the Shapeshifter "shifts" into forms that have unique skills of their own. The price is that the Shapeshifter loses the ability to use potions and poultices, necessitating the need for a healer in case the Shapeshifter plans to use any of his forms in sustained combat. You don't have to worry about losing the ability to cast spells if the ones you do choose can remain useful throughout combat, though. Like Mana Clash, which permanently removes an unfriendly mage from combat.

Many people have complained that the forms are weak and do little damage, but the more I've tested (and summing up all recent discoveries) the more I've become convinced that this is because you're supposed to take measures to improve those forms on your own, IE you need to raise your strength/dexterity. This allows you to replace the form's default strength and dexterity with much higher values - your own. The form's constitution is the one stat that improves rapidly the higher your spellpower is, so it can be left untouched. The build in this guide mainly flaunts what a high strength Shapeshifter can do, which is impressive. Based on my tests however a high dex Shapeshifter can abuse the many mage items which grant heavy bonuses to defense to become very difficult to hit in combat. A build I tried (2 dex, 2 str, 2 magic per 2 levels) with Libertarian's Cowl, Magus War Boots, Howe's Shield, Senior Enchanter's Robe, Magister's Shield and a few other items was able to reach 125 defense (with 225 missile deflection in Flying Swarm form) unbuffed. It might be noteworthy to say that at this point Ser Cauthrien was already beginning to miss on my character. It might be possible to raise this further with better items and with Glyph of Warding/Heroic Defense from a healer to rather extreme values.

The Spider Form is unique in that it is the only form whose damage benefits from both a high strength (base attack) and a high dexterity (Poison Spit). It comes with its own debuff (Webbing) and of course, Overwhelm.

The merits of Bear Form have already been discussed in the guide, along with the fat +10 bonus to armor it gives as soon as your armor becomes higher than the bear's default armor. It comes with its own critical hit-attack (Slam) and a buff that raises its strength by 10 every other 30 seconds.

The Flying Swarm is unique in that it is a form that functions as a persistent AoE. It gets no bonuses to strength/dexterity, however, which is why you also need to keep your dexterity high. It has a massive default missile deflection though, which will actually stack with your defense. It also has an Evasion-like passive skill as a default. Its damage relies in spellpower, which is why you need to keep your spellpower decent.

The build I tried was able to keep 46 spellpower while Shapeshifted, and if you look at the Shapeshifter table in wiki you'll notice that it will have decent constitution in both bear/spider forms as well as having decent AoE damage for Flying Swarm.

In case you're wondering why the there are no Shapeshifter specific items in the game, the answer is because every item is fair game to a Shapeshifter, depending on what you want accomplished. This is reflected by the forms - you'll want to use heavy armor in Bear Form, and perhaps a staff its slower attacks won't miss. Spider Form attacks faster and has a solid skill set so you can be more liberal with it. Finally you'll want to go all-out defense equipment while in Flying Swarm form, and since it ignores whatever weapon you're using (unless it improves nature damage) you're better off using something defensive.
It might be important to mention at this point that so far I haven't noticed any offensive mods (like +x elemental damage from runes, +x damage to undead or similar bonuses) from carrying over to the forms, although every defensive mod I've tried so far (haven't tried spell resistance and a few other obscure ones like +healing effects received) do get carried over to the forms. So you can dual-wield daggers with +spell resist runes and if the mod does work, you can be a pretty dangerous mage-killer along with other +spell resists items too. Although using a staff is useful at lower levels when your strength/dexterity are lower and you can frequently miss, at higher levels your stats become high enough that this is no longer necessary (unless you plan on fighting something with high defense).

I guess that pretty much sums up what I've discovered. The reason why  the consensus is that the Shapeshifter specialization "sucks" is apparently because we've been using it... wrong... all this time. It's definitely a unique take on the classic warrior-mage archetype.

Modifié par TBastian, 17 février 2010 - 03:33 .

[Mr_Raider]

x-president wrote...

  In fact I'm eliminating mages all together to do something totally different.

There are other classes?


What was your final naked strength in each game?

[CybAnt1]

Regarding shapeshifts, yeah the biggest problem is not being able to use health poultices. Wynne or someone else has to heal you. Would be cool if the beast forms had some kind of "activate regeneration" power like WoW. But oh well. In beast form you unlock the beast's abilities, but can't use any of your pre-existing spells or items. Can be a tough tradeoff.

The worst part is as stated in the OP, none of the behavior is scripted in the combat tactics. So if Morrigan or your PC mage shapeshifts, you HAVE to take control of them and order them to do something. I think they'll use normal attacks on their own, but no abilities (web/spit/stomp/overwhelm/etc.) unless ordered to. Also, there doesn't seem to be any scripting to make them shapeshift in or out of their forms - you've got to order them to do it (i.e. you can't script them to de-shapeshift if their health drops below a certain point).

Many people don't like the casting time to shapeshift, there are I think at least 2 mods to make it instantaneous. I know there is a mod out there that adds new forms too: haven't tried it, have heard it's wonky.

If you like Overwhelm (and who doesn't, I just love to see bosses squirming underneath you while you maul them), take a shapeshifter, Dog, and a ranger bear summon into every battle, they all can do it.

The Flying Swarm shapeshift is kinda interesting. It seems to damage nearby enemies even if you're not attacking them directly. just as long as they're near. I didn't notice Divide the Swarm stunning enemies, but it did seem to increase this quasi-"AoE" DoT damage to several enemies at once. It seems very resistant to all attacks but fire (and what enemies use fire?) and I noticed whatever tiny damage it was taking was coming from mana, not health. However, existing in the form seems to use mana over time, even if damage isn't draining your mana pool. When it runs out -- you revert back to normal form. So make sure you cast Flying Swarm when mana is "fully charged". 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 17 février 2010 - 02:53 .

[x-president]

CybAnt1 wrote...

The worst part is as stated in the OP, none of the behavior is scripted in the combat tactics. So if Morrigan or your PC mage shapeshifts, you HAVE to take control of them and order them to do something. I think they'll use normal attacks on their own, but no abilities (web/spit/stomp/overwhelm/etc.) unless ordered to. Also, there doesn't seem to be any scripting to make them shapeshift in or out of their forms - you've got to order them to do it (i.e. you can't script them to de-shapeshift if their health drops below a certain point).

Actaully you can with the stock tactic system.  It's under activate and is used like any other sustainable. 

Also they will use abilities under auto attack as long as the behavior is set right.  I think Aggressive will do it for sure.



@ Mr_Raider - I'll post up strength stats later.  My last game is the only time I really tried to boost it.

Modifié par x-president, 17 février 2010 - 03:28 .