How does Liara become the Shadow Broker if Shep doesn't help her? I've only ever played the dlc and I never thought about it before - is there dialogue in the game where she is like "thanks for all the help *******, I could have used a hand with the whole shadow broker thing but its cool, this random and convenient Alliance squad helped me instead"?
I believe she hired some mercs to help her take down the Broker (IIRC).
Yep.
She hires dozens of mercs. Feron does not survive.
Exactly, you have to remember to take it with context. It is canon that Shepard did arrival in the same sense that it is canon that Shepard made peace with the Geth. It is not default canon, it is something OPTIONAL - its more lore than it is canon. People were talking as if the events with Shepard and Arrival were 100% canon in the same sense that Liara becoming Shadow Broker is canon. Liara being SB is canon because it happens in the story no matter what but it is NOT canon that Shepard was involved. The Arrival is stopped by the relay blowing up no matter what but it is NOT canon that Shepard was the one who did it.
So saying that Shepard was indoctrinated because he was, by default canon, affected by the reaper artifact in Arrival is false because it only works if you consider the event canon in the lore. It's like saying that Shepard is canon male or female. It doesn't work like that. This one of the 'problems' you run into when you play a game where the events, narrative and characters are so gravely defined by your decisions.
And where does it say which decision is canon? My Shepard let's the geth slaughter the quarians and destroys all the robots and gets up at the end like a boss. I've read all the books and I've never seen "canon Shepard" anywhere. Unless it's in the comics. Not a fan of those.
And where does it say which decision is canon? My Shepard let's the geth slaughter the quarians and destroys all the robots and gets up at the end like a boss. I've read all the books and I've never seen "canon Shepard" anywhere. Unless it's in the comics. Not a fan of those.
That's the point. No decision is canon (at least until Bioware establishes fixed canon). For example the only things that are canon during the Rannoch arc are that Shepard was on Rannoch and ended the Geth vs Quarian war there. How he or she did so varies from playthrough to playthrough.
That's the point. No decision is canon (at least until Bioware establishes fixed canon). The only things that are canon during the Rannoch arc are that Shepard was on Rannoch and ended the Geth vs Quarian war there. How he or she did so varies from playthrough to playthrough.
So then it's complete hogwash when someone say's something is canon. Pretty much what I thought.
It is funny how something as simple as the queen using the voices of multiple male hosts instead of one female one can have this kind of impact (let's not go all SJW on this observation, please). The use of the brat was significantly less subtle.Having a Habringer hologram however, would not have made as much impact as the kid. You would not trust a Reaper, but you can trust a child.
When I played the game for the first time I was quite surprised with the Rachni queen. I saw the queen in ME1, so the visuals were not surprising. But hearing krogan voice instead of an asari instantly made me distrust her which was drastically different from what I experienced in ME1.
It's about provoking positive emotional reaction to sway Shepard into choosing synthesis.
Shepard headbutting Uvenk is canon. All Shepards who don't are clearly inferior.So then it's complete hogwash when someone say's something is canon. Pretty much what I thought.
Shepard headbutting Uvenk is canon. All Shepards who don't are clearly inferior.
And then there's the speaker for clan Weyrloc, aka krogan BBQ. And the eclipse merc who swan dives out of Dantius Towers, and that one salarian engineer who just can't believe you just killed all his guys.
Indeed. I love bringing Jack along just for her reaction -- something like, "damn Shepard. I could take lessons."I always kick that dude out of the towers. I just can't help it.
Well... Arrival is not canon, so it doesn't really matter. But.... Yeah. Somethings up with that DLC big time and the sheer level of foreshadowing is staggering.
And where does it say which decision is canon? My Shepard let's the geth slaughter the quarians and destroys all the robots and gets up at the end like a boss. I've read all the books and I've never seen "canon Shepard" anywhere. Unless it's in the comics. Not a fan of those.
I think you've completely misunderstood my post. Read it again.
I was saying that these decisions are NOT cannon and are just lore.
"It is canon that Shepard did arrival in the same sense that it is canon that Shepard made peace with the Geth. It is not default canon, it is something OPTIONAL - its more lore than it is canon"
I was using the geth as an example to demonstrate how it isn't really canon because it isn't default. Get me? I'm trying to illustrate how Arrival ISN'T canon. No DLC is canon and very few choices in the series are canon. This was all in argument to the people who keep insisting that Arrival is canon.
So then it's complete hogwash when someone say's something is canon. Pretty much what I thought.
Basically, yes.
I'm not sure what there is here to debate.
Arrival events are canon as the events of the Lair of the Shadow Broker etc. Shepard taking part in them, that's what is not canon. For Arrival, Alliance sends a team to free Kenson, for LotSB Liara hires mercs. Still, Alpha Relay is destroyed and Liara is the new Shadow Broker.
TES series do something similar. For example, see TES V Skyrim in-game book Oblivion Crysis that is basically retelling of the events in TES IV Oblivion. The prisoner is player's character.
I'm not sure what there is here to debate.
Arrival events are canon as the events of the Lair of the Shadow Broker etc. Shepard taking part in them, that's what is not canon. For Arrival, Alliance sends a team to free Kenson, for LotSB Liara hires mercs. Still, Alpha Relay is destroyed and Liara is the new Shadow Broker.
TES series do something similar. For example, see TES V Skyrim in-game book Oblivion Crysis that is basically retelling of the events in TES IV Oblivion. The prisoner is player's character.
Just to clarify, in case someone misinterprets me, this is exactly what I've been saying.
When I say arrival isn't canon what I'm referring to is Shepard blowing up the relay. Not the actual relay being blown up. I was countering peoples argument that Shepard is indoctrinated because of the Arrival reaper artifact.
I think you've completely misunderstood my post. Read it again.
I was saying that these decisions are NOT cannon and are just lore.
"It is canon that Shepard did arrival in the same sense that it is canon that Shepard made peace with the Geth. It is not default canon, it is something OPTIONAL - its more lore than it is canon"
I was using the geth as an example to demonstrate how it isn't really canon because it isn't default. Get me? I'm trying to illustrate how Arrival ISN'T canon. No DLC is canon and very few choices in the series are canon. This was all in argument to the people who keep insisting that Arrival is canon.
Basically, yes.
You mean it's YOUR canon. Until I see Bioware setting canon in stone, it's all up to the player. The fact that you continue to bring up what is or isn't canon in your arguments isn't helping.
You mean it's YOUR canon. Until I see Bioware setting canon in stone, it's all up to the player. The fact that you continue to bring up what is or isn't canon in your arguments isn't helping.
Are you arguing against Valmar's wording? Because he explicitly said what he considers canon and what not in the previous post.
Alpha Relay blowing is set in stone. Shepard having anything to do with it is not. Thus arguments about Object Rho affecting/indoctrinating Shepard are not true for players who haven't played Arrival DLC
Are you arguing against Valmar's wording? Because he explicitly said what he considers canon and what not in the previous post.
Alpha Relay blowing is set in stone. Shepard having anything to do with it is not. Thus arguments about Object Rho affecting/indoctrinating Shepard are not true for players who haven't played Arrival DLC
Yes, but Shepard could have been involved. Not set in stone either way. That's what I"m saying. So saying something is canon, as far as I understand, means basically nothing. Other than the major events, like the SR1 getting blown up. But when the player has a choice, there is no set canon. That's why I'm having trouble with people saying one thing is canon when the other option has an equal chance at being canon, as well.
Yes, but Shepard could have been involved. Not set in stone either way. That's what I"m saying. So saying something is canon, as far as I understand, means basically nothing. Other than the major events, like the SR1 getting blown up. But when the player has a choice, there is no set canon. That's why I'm having trouble with people saying one thing is canon when the other option has an equal chance at being canon, as well.
I see canon as something that is true for all players, regardless of their choices. Arrival relay blowing up is such thing, Liara becoming new Shadow Broker, Shepard using Prothean beacon (which should've been not canon but Liara explicitly mentions it multiple times even in a non-import playthrough) - all are fixed and true for all players.
Player's choice is not canon as in Shepard saving Amanda Kenson, Shepard helping Liara to take down the Shadow Broker, Shepard sacrificing the Council.
Those choices are addressed in further games as in "there is not much information on what happened". See Oblivion Crysis for an example of how Bethesda dealt with player choice in their next installment.
Edit: If you talk about Shepard helping those mercs Liara hires or that Alliance squad Hackett sends - there is no information supporting that in the game and it ventures in the area of headcanon
I see canon as something that is true for all players, regardless of their choices. Arrival relay blowing up is such thing, Liara becoming new Shadow Broker, Shepard using Prothean beacon (which should've been not canon but Liara explicitly mentions it multiple times even in a non-import playthrough) - all are fixed and true for all players.
Player's choice is not canon as in Shepard saving Amanda Kenson, Shepard helping Liara to take down the Shadow Broker, Shepard sacrificing the Council.
Those choices are addressed in further games as in "there is not much information on what happened". See Oblivion Crysis for an example of how Bethesda dealt with player choice in their next installment.
Edit: If you talk about Shepard helping those mercs Liara hires or that Alliance squad Hackett sends - there is no information supporting that in the game and it ventures in the area of headcanon
But you guys are trying to pass off your opinion of canon as fact. While it is sound, Bioware never confirmed any of this. So saying that X is canon because of reason Y is not a fact. It's spreading misinformation.
But you guys are trying to pass off your opinion of canon as fact. While it is sound, Bioware never confirmed any of this. So saying that X is canon because of reason Y is not a fact. It's spreading misinformation.
Bioware never said anything about it as far as I know. Maybe because it's an already established notion? Here is an article on canon that you might find interesting. Also, a quote from an article on fan fiction:
Fan fiction, or fanfiction (often abbreviated as fan fic, fanfic, or simply fic), is a broadly defined fan labor term for stories about characters or settings written by fans of the original work, rather than by the original creator.
According to this definition, Shepard having anything to do with Object Rho is fan fiction.
Would an ME3 default playthrough be considered canon or a ME3 playthrough with a save import from ME2 to be canon?
Neither can be considered fully canon IMO. In an imported save Liara blames Shepard's understanding of Eden Prime videos on the Cipher. In a non-imported save it's the Prothean beacon. What is canon is that Shepard understands those videos. Canon is the skeleton, the fixed basis that is true for all Shepards. Codex entries that are the same for both imported and non-imported Shepards are canon. Major events like Arrival, Sovereign defeat, LotSB are canon.Would an ME3 default playthrough be considered canon or a ME3 playthrough with a save import from ME2 to be canon?
Neither can be considered fully canon IMO. In an imported save Liara blames Shepard's understanding of Eden Prime videos on the Cipher. In a non-imported save it's the Prothean beacon. What is canon is that Shepard understands those videos. Canon is the skeleton, the fixed basis that is true for all Shepards. Codex entries that are the same for both imported and non-imported Shepards are canon. Major events like Arrival, Sovereign defeat, LotSB are canon.
On Chronos edi tells Shepard that Cerberus recovered her/his body, not given to them by Liara. Garrus and Tali are squadmates . but can be dead in ME3. I only ask since ME3 is the place to start the trilogy and that someone who never played the previous two games, and may never play them, would believe that everything in ME3 is canon.
But you guys are trying to pass off your opinion of canon as fact. While it is sound, Bioware never confirmed any of this. So saying that X is canon because of reason Y is not a fact. It's spreading misinformation.
You're confusing lore with canon. Canon implies that its part of the main story. DLC is not canon and Bioware make it explicitly clear that Shepard's involvement is not necessary. If it was canon then Shepard's involvement in these DLC's would be confirmed regardless of rather or not you actually did them. You're not making the necessary distinction between canon and lore. It is lore that Shepard can save the Rachni queen but it is not canon that he does. I would link you the wiki describing what canon is but I see Vazgen has already done that.
The argument this topic brought up was that Shepard must be indoctrinated because it is canon that his character is effected by the object in Arrival in the story. The reason this does not work is because Shepard is not mandatory to have been involved. It is not canon, it is only lore. You accuse me, inaccurately, of imposing MY canon as the only canon, despite the fact that I am actually arguing AGAINST that mindset. It is those who take Shepard's involvement in Arrival as canon who are imposing THEIR canon decisions on the rest of us. There is a lot in the game that IS NOT canon.
Other than the major events, like the SR1 getting blown up. But when the player has a choice, there is no set canon.
Honestly if you can grasp that I'm surprised you're arguing against this at all.
I think that it's canon that whatever is necessary to get to the end of ME3 happened (so no clock running down in Arrival). Beyond that the only things that are are those that happen no matter what choice you make, which may involve other people doing them if Shepard simply avoids. No player choice beyond that is.
It is nice that we can agree on something for once. 
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