I wouldn't necessarily call it love if you'd kill them the instant they stepped out of line, which I think would be the case for virtually all terrorists/serial killers. I doubt many loved ones in the former case would survive trying to leave their religion, for instance.
That's why I want a LI that puts relationship above other thing like religion for example.
I wouldn't necessarily call it love if you'd kill them the instant they stepped out of line, which I think would be the case for virtually all terrorists/serial killers. I doubt many loved ones in the former case would survive trying to leave their religion, for instance.
You're assuming every last one of them would kill their partner for stepping out of line. Not all terrorists are religious, all you gotta do is commit terrorists acts...like blowing up a religious/political structure...*cough*
You're assuming every last one of them would kill their partner for stepping out of line. Not all terrorists are religious, all you gotta do is commit terrorists acts...like blowing up a religious/political structure...*cough*
I would say that a very high proportion would do so. And it does interest me that you seem to want more people like Anders.
Where did you get it? I'm serious - I am a sucker for statistic and can not find anything about DA in this area. Here and there developers give hints like "Lelieana is the most popular romance" or "rogue is the least playable class" - but this is itIf you know something I do not, please, share!
Btw, I would argue that old statement "given a choice all play a murderer to try something different". According to statistic, when presented moral choices players tend to follow their RL character. I do not say there are zero role-players who DO try different personalities, but they are minority.
One of the devs (I'm not certain who it was. MIght've been Gaider) said something about 17% of people picking the renegadish choices.
As for the dwarves I think it was on a panel that either 10% or 5% of people played them. They were the least played race by a significant amount. 70% were humans and 20-25% were elves.
But honestly minority or not the game caters to that playstyle. I hate the whole "well only a few people are gonna use it!" I suppose we shouldn't have an ending then? Since most people don't finish the game.
Also Mass effect should've only had male Shepard since only 18% of players in ME3 played FemShep. Oh and that Insanity difficulty we can throw that out the window too... and the next ME shouldn't bother with any class other than soldier since no one class even reached 18% used.
One of the devs (I'm not certain who it was. MIght've been Gaider) said something about 17% of people picking the renegadish choices.
As for the dwarves I think it was on a panel that either 10% or 5% of people played them. They were the least played race by a significant amount. 70% were humans and 20-25% were elves.
But honestly minority or not the game caters to that playstyle. I hate the whole "well only a few people are gonna use it!" I suppose we shouldn't have an ending then? Since most people don't finish the game.
The trouble is when evil content takes away space that could be used by good content.
The trouble is when evil content takes away space that could be used by good content.
Oh please. Such content has more than enough space to work well with renegadish/cruel content. There is always going to be content in a game that you're not interested in.
The trouble is when evil content takes away space that could be used by good content.
And having more race options takes away from making multiple human origin stories, since most play humans anyway.
And having same sex relationships takes away from making more diverse straight relationships, since most people are straight.
Etc.
I would say that a very high proportion would do so. And it does interest me that you seem to want more people like Anders.
lol!! I consider Anders to be more of a whiny loser who wouldn't shut up, and he's fulgy. Anders using the "Anders eye candy" mod and sans the whining would have actually worked for me.
If anything I want more LIs like Morrigan or Miranda from ME2. Give me their male equivalent any day.
Anders is evil to me. He killed hundreds of people for his own cause and uses his so called friends to do it. You just may not see him as predatory but I totally see him as latching onto Hawke to use him/her, he tries to use him for a place to hide out by dropping hints since act 1 about the danger of his location et al. The only thing that separates Anders from what is being asks for in this thread is the crybaby whiny crap. Cut that from Anders and you've got a pretty okay dark LI.
And what you are automatically asking for is that the relationship go sour BECAUSE they are not good people. Would you also be open to romancing a good boy/girl LI and have the relationship go south?
This thread began simply asking for a darker LI that ended up with some mentioning evil and villain LIs. I agree that they are all different to a degree but in the end it's opinion based. Some players may consider the darker LI to be a villain or be evil et al. That's why those types will also be mentioned by both sides of the argument.
But Anders is really abusive in a relationship with Hawke. Putting aside how he completely violates your trust and uses you as a dupe to commit mass murder, he essentially blows up at you every few seconds, and you've seen him lose it enough to try and kill someone he knows is innocent. Anders is exactly my point in terms of an evil LI - someone who is emotionally abusive and manipulating, who it's one-half of a case-study on battered spouse syndrome.
If you want someone worse than Anders, who isn't even keeping up the facade of being an OK person and doesn't start off with voices in his head driving him to the brink, then you're really asking for even more abusive relationship dynamics. Which, again, is my point.
Also, why are you still on the raping and animal abuse? A person can be an "evil" person without ever doing any of those things. A banker can deny an old lady with no family a loan knowing that if she doesn't get it she could lose her house and end up dead on the street for the upcoming winter. He could do it and not bat a flipping eye about it and go take his kids to Disneyland for the winter with his bonus. I'm sure his family loves him dearly and he loves them too, and the old lady who's freezing to death probably thinks he's Satan incarnate.
Not caring about the poor is a long way removed from what people are asking about in this thread. Not to mention that IRL there's no way that a person who would ever be able to make that decision would have even a remote say over whether that old lady could even qualify for a loan.
But Anders is really abusive in a relationship with Hawke. Putting aside how he completely violates your trust and uses you as a dupe to commit mass murder, he essentially blows up at you every few seconds, and you've seen him lose it enough to try and kill someone he knows is innocent. Anders is exactly my point in terms of an evil LI - someone who is emotionally abusive and manipulating, who it's one-half of a case-study on battered spouse syndrome.
If you want someone worse than Anders, who isn't even keeping up the facade of being an OK person and doesn't start off with voices in his head driving him to the brink, then you're really asking for even more abusive relationship dynamics. Which, again, is my point.
And your point isn't valid because you're only thinking in terms of "X is not a good person and therefore he/she MUST treat the PC badly as well." That is sort of narrow minded thinking. As I pointed out, there are lots of people who do bad things and still love their family. Anders was abusive and yeah he did all of those things but what I want more is a darker/evil/villain LI who is in control of himself, not a crybaby, doesn't use excuses. Someone calculating and in control not some whiny idiot who runs off half cocked. Anders was a stupid moron and I saw through his predictive BS right from the start. I knew he was dumb the moment he said he let Justice take control of him despite Justice flat out telling him that seeking out mages for body control is the mark of a demon. The OP has stated plenty of times that she isn't looking for stupid.
Not caring about the poor is a long way removed from what people are asking about in this thread. Not to mention that IRL there's no way that a person who would ever be able to make that decision would have even a remote say over whether that old lady could even qualify for a loan.
I don't think you understand what people are asking for in this thread because you continue to go solely by your own definition of what a darker LI is. You guys keep bringing up animal torture, rapists, and domestic abusers and say "This is what YOU are asking for." When it has been stated that this is far from what we want. A man could sell drugs and shoot a person in the face with zero remorse, that doesn't mean they are rapists, woman beaters, and puppy killers as well. One act does not equal another.
Bankers turn down people for loans all the time. It happens every single day IRL. Every winter since I can remember there has been a news report of an elderly person dying because the gas company shut off their heat because they couldn't afford to pay. There are people living in debt and can barely feed themselves much less their own children and you don't see creditors giving them a break. I doubt all these men and women go home and kick puppies, beat their spouses, and rape for fun.
And your point isn't valid because you're only thinking in terms of "X is not a good person and therefore he/she MUST treat the PC badly as well." That is sort of narrow minded thinking. As I pointed out, there are lots of people who do bad things and still love their family. Anders was abusive and yeah he did all of those things but what I want more is a darker/evil/villain LI who is in control of himself, not a crybaby, doesn't use excuses. Someone calculating and in control not some whiny idiot who runs off half cocked. Anders was a stupid moron and I saw through his predictive BS right from the start. I knew he was dumb the moment he said he let Justice take control of him despite Justice flat out telling him that seeking out mages for body control is the mark of a demon. The OP has stated plenty of times that she isn't looking for stupid.
The "bad things" you're talking about lots of people doing who still ostensibly love their families are (a) not actually even considered bad IRL, and mostly amount to not giving a **** about the poor; and (
don't involve actively abusing other human beings.
When you ask for thugs, you ask for stupid. Because smarter people tend to avoid violence, since violence is incredibly messy and brings down a great deal of law enforcement attention.
Bankers turn down people for loans all the time. It happens every single day IRL. Every winter since I can remember there has been a news report of an elderly person dying because the gas company shut off their heat because they couldn't afford to pay. There are people living in debt and can barely feed themselves much less their own children and you don't see creditors giving them a break. I doubt all these men and women go home and kick puppies, beat their spouses, and rape for fun.
I don't think you understand how banks work. Or how the electric company works. Banks aren't a small business. The decision of who to lend is a decision made at the corporate level in the abstract, which sets down a general policy of what the ratios, occupation, etc. has to be for someone to qualify. The individual goes into a branch, and while there's some discretion there, the reality is that you either fit into the box or you don't. So what you have is a person who is doing a job the alternative to which is starving, having to look someone in the eye and tell them that someone else made a decision that they can't get a loan.
That's not even remotely close to being evil, and if you think turning people down for loans is evil then your moral compass is desperately in need of realignment.
Again, if all you're asking about is someone who doesn't give a **** about the poor, even Aveline qualifies as a dark LI.
I don't think you understand what people are asking for in this thread because you continue to go solely by your own definition of what a darker LI is. You guys keep bringing up animal torture, rapists, and domestic abusers and say "This is what YOU are asking for." When it has been stated that this is far from what we want. A man could sell drugs and shoot a person in the face with zero remorse, that doesn't mean they are rapists, woman beaters, and puppy killers as well. One act does not equal another.
We get exactly what you're asking for in thread. You're asking for heartless murderers doing things that are generally very high on the "psychotic" side of the occupational scale. Like the murderous drug dealer who could execute someone in cold blood and not feel a thing. You think this person is going to be warm and fuzzy and emotionally supportive?
Someone who can execute another human being in cold blood and maintain a stranglehold on the drug trade, which involves a great deal of, actually, active abuse and exploitation and, more generally, not a great deal of education or sophistication, will be a violent thug.
That's what you're talking about in terms of "evil". I'm a very big fan of villain LIs. But a good villain LI, as I said repeatedly, is David Xanatos, not Bishop, the latter of whom is just a violent thug.
But honestly minority or not the game caters to that playstyle. I hate the whole "well only a few people are gonna use it!" I suppose we shouldn't have an ending then? Since most people don't finish the game.
Thanks for some statistic. The one about ME I did saw before (and 83% of paragons restored my believe in humanity). The one about DA - as I suspected "someone said something on some con some time ago". Why don't they simply publish it is beyond me.
Now, there is no need to be sarcastic here. Nobody said "minority does not matter". If anything all BW games are the opposite of that sentence. "Good tendencies" comes not out of the blue, it's a part of the plot. BG times with your hero just aimlessly wandering about (well, almost aimlessly) are over. You character now is literally a Hero (with a capital "H"). Means, your companions should be on the same page. Then comes the budget problem. They can not create tonnes of companions for every possible alignment these days - too expensive. But they do what they can and where it is possible. Like in SWTOR - you admitted they do have at least 2 dark companions for every class.
And so far nobody agreed in this very thread about definition of "dark companion". If you (thouse who need one of such LI) do not know what you want - how BW is supposed to make it? I suspect women in BW writers team are from those lot who does not like to be jerked around so when resources are limited (as they usually are) the team goes for normal relationships.
DAI is less limited. And we do have already very different characters there - don't tell me you get the same vibe from IB and Cullen. Git it a chance.
We get exactly what you're asking for in thread. You're asking for heartless murderers doing things that are generally very high on the "psychotic" side of the occupational scale. Like the murderous drug dealer who could execute someone in cold blood and not feel a thing. You think this person is going to be warm and fuzzy and emotionally supportive?
Depends on the personality. Might be, might be not. The fact that it's a drug dealer and a cold-blood murderer is not enough to say.
The "bad things" you're talking about lots of people doing who still ostensibly love their families are (a) not actually even considered bad IRL, and mostly amount to not giving a **** about the poor; and (
When you ask for thugs, you ask for stupid. Because smarter people tend to avoid violence, since violence is incredibly messy and brings down a great deal of law enforcement attention.
They are considered bad to the people they have wronged. And I used thugs as an example of some bad behavior and to say that just because a person does those things, does not mean they don't have a line. I'm not using it as an argument for what I want.
I don't think you understand how banks work. Or how the electric company works. Banks aren't a small business. The decision of who to lend is a decision made at the corporate level in the abstract, which sets down a general policy of what the ratios, occupation, etc. has to be for someone to qualify. The individual goes into a branch, and while there's some discretion there, the reality is that you either fit into the box or you don't. So what you have is a person who is doing a job the alternative to which is starving, having to look someone in the eye and tell them that someone else made a decision that they can't get a loan.
Once again I used these companies as an example of heartless behavior by those in charge. What is a company but an organization created by people. I work for a company that fosters a work environment of lying and scheming to customers despite their claims otherwise. The people in charge of said company have a direct responsibility for this but only care about lining their own pockets. I have no doubt that the CEO lives good, and goes home to a loving family. Just as those in charge of approving the bank loan do the same. The employee is just doing their job to get a paycheck but they are responsible for "going with the flow." and overall the person who gets their gas shut off and freezing to death isn't thinking totally about the faceless corporate executives, but the employee who has to say no. I've been cursed out more times than I can count over choices that weren't mine to make. But I still like getting paid.
That's not even remotely close to being evil, and if you think turning people down for loans is evil then your moral compass is desperately in need of realignment.
I have no idea what you are arguing. I used the banker as an example of a person who may make a "bad" decision without remorse but is still NOT a monster. Once again, just because I use an example doesn't mean that is what I'm asking for. It's just an example.
We get exactly what you're asking for in thread. You're asking for heartless murderers doing things that are generally very high on the "psychotic" side of the occupational scale. Like the murderous drug dealer who could execute someone in cold blood and not feel a thing. You think this person is going to be warm and fuzzy and emotionally supportive?
LOL!! If you say so, then it MUST be true. Yes I want a heartless murderer who stabs people in the street, then comes home and pours bleach in the fish tank, and beats me over a pot roast for the lulz while twirling his mustache of doom. 
Someone who can execute another human being in cold blood and maintain a stranglehold on the drug trade, which involves a great deal of, actually, active abuse and exploitation and, more generally, not a great deal of education or sophistication, will be a violent thug.
I think many mobsters and drug kingpins will disagree.
That's what you're talking about in terms of "evil". I'm a very big fan of villain LIs. But a good villain LI, as I said repeatedly, is David Xanatos, not Bishop, the latter of whom is just a violent thug.
Actually what I want is an Aizen Souske type. Handsome, smart, arrogant, and calculating. A person who is in control and commands respect but with LI tendencies. Oh yeah and give me a Haytham Kenway.
If you don't want it then pick a LI that is more your style instead of trying to tell everyone else what they shouldn't have.
keep in mind that our companions will be joining us to help us with whatever the main plot is and they have to get along with the other companions to some degree. They can't be so amoral that they won't join us to help us deal with [main plot stuff].
Thanks for some statistic. The one about ME I did saw before (and 83% of paragons restored my believe in humanity). The one about DA - as I suspected "someone said something on some con some time ago". Why don't they simply publish it is beyond me.
Now, there is no need to be sarcastic here. Nobody said "minority does not matter". If anything all BW games are the opposite of that sentence. "Good tendencies" comes not out of the blue, it's a part of the plot. BG times with your hero just aimlessly wandering about (well, almost aimlessly) are over. You character now is literally a Hero (with a capital "H"). Means, your companions should be on the same page. Then comes the budget problem. They can not create tonnes of companions for every possible alignment these days - too expensive. But they do what they can and where it is possible. Like in SWTOR - you admitted they do have at least 2 dark companions for every class.
And so far nobody agreed in this very thread about definition of "dark companion". If you (thouse who need one of such LI) do not know what you want - how BW is supposed to make it? I suspect women in BW writers team are from those lot who does not like to be jerked around so when resources are limited (as they usually are) the team goes for normal relationships.
DAI is less limited. And we do have already very different characters there - don't tell me you get the same vibe from IB and Cullen. Git it a chance.
Probably because people will do what you did with the whole but paragon choices are more widely used and say "well I don't use it and only a few people do so they should only put in the stuff I and the majority use."
Normal relationships? What about the LIs strikes you as normal? Hell I remember when DA2 came out and one of the reasons given for Varric not being an LI was there wasn't enough drama in his relationship with Hawke. 
Most of the LIs are leeches where the PC gives and gives for them and they hardly ever ask the PCs about his/her feelings in return.
Also yes my warden was very heroic killing innocent people for health points. So was my Shepard shooting people in the back.
That's what we're establishing here. But most of us agree that we want someone that's not going to be completely chaotic evil.
Also what? How on earth do you think Cullen's a darker LI? As for IB I already said why I don't think he'd be liable to fit.
I mean...if you don't think it's liable why come in here to say so? I already admitted it was a long shot.
Edited for clarity.
Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 novembre 2014 - 07:23 .
I find it rather baffling how fierce people are fighting the addition of a dark LI. It's a game people, why not let others who are tired of the goody-two-shoes beaten path enjoy it too. There are 6...SIX...male LI in DA:I, you want all of them to be your knights in shining armour apparently. How boring.
And, I have a suspicion that Cullen is either a KISA or so light grey he might as well be one. I sincerely hope to be wrong, he's cute 
Errr not six male LI just LI for females my mistake
lol!! I consider Anders to be more of a whiny loser who wouldn't shut up, and he's fulgy. Anders using the "Anders eye candy" mod and sans the whining would have actually worked for me.
If anything I want more LIs like Morrigan or Miranda from ME2. Give me their male equivalent any day.
Male Miranda without the whole "I want to be normal" and self esteem issues would be wonderful. And no she's not evil that's kind of the point. She is however darker (she works for and supports Cerberus despite the BS they pull and she would've put a control chip in Shep's head if TIM hadn't stayed her hand).
I love Miranda so she's one of the few females I will gladly romance on a male.
(And she is so the type who would crack someone's skull open to get the information inside). But she clearly has people she cares about.
I just want a driven, cunning and charming male character. One who can agree with ruthless decisions (provided they're effective) because he'd make the same decisions in the PCs shoes. One that's not gonna be a woobie with a sad past or yet another knight in shining armor that glares at the PC whenever she dares do something cruel that is to her benefit. A equal partner not someone that needs to be comforted, taught or herded. Someone who has a decent sense of humor without being self depreciating. Someone without self esteem issues.
Sorry, but I'm not available.
But to add an evil LI is to remove the possibility for a more good one that more people would have enjoyed, so it's an opportunity cost that directly hurts other people, more than it would help the bit of the fanbase devoted to evil.
Before you get too carried away trying to argue from a position of majority, I'm going to use two words to remind you of two minority demographics in recent Bioware games that matter greatly to you: lesbian relationships.
If you really want to talk about opportunity costs that hurt non-minority play styles, let's have the honesty to remember where homosexual relationships sit on the fanbase totem poll. First they came for the evil players...
Sorry, but I'm not available.
*spit takes*
Curse you Dean! 
I mean hell I didn't even say I'd prefer Bishop's type above all just that I'd take him over yet another KISA and woobie. That sort of desperation after eating the same thing so long you'd try anything that won't kill you just to taste something different 
*spit takes*
Curse you Dean!
Why?
I'm a motivated and too clever by half, and can be plenty charming when I want to be. Being an exceptionally objective and goal oriented person with priorities of my own discretion, I'm comfortable with a level of ruthlessness and moral ambiguity that most people shy away from. My past is hardly tragic or traumatized, nor am I by any means a crusader for moralistic pet causes. I treat those who earn my respect as equals, admire those who I have the ambition to match, and dismiss those who fail to reach those levels without needing to seek their approval. I have a bitingly sardonic sense of humor, and keep my ego healthily maintained.
By your standards, I'm perfect.
Face it- you want me as a Bioware love interest.
Why?
I'm a motivated and too clever by half, and can be plenty charming when I want to be. Being an exceptionally objective and goal oriented person with priorities of my own discretion, I'm comfortable with a level of ruthlessness and moral ambiguity that most people shy away from. My past is hardly tragic or traumatized, nor am I by any means a crusader for moralistic pet causes. I treat those who earn my respect as equals, admire those who I have the ambition to match, and dismiss those who fail to reach those levels without needing to seek their approval. I have a bitingly sardonic sense of humor, and keep my ego healthily maintained.
By your standards, I'm perfect.
Face it- you want me as a Bioware love interest.
I just didn't expect you to suggest yourself is all.
That description though
Should I create a Dean-The-Young for DA4 LI signature?
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