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[Ryzaki]

Female option would have been neat. In all seriousness, Adachi is one of my favorite villains ever because of lists reasons I''ve summed up in the Persona thread before, but he's probably not what I'd want in a Love interest. What I'd want would be either an Atton kind of character, Mira or Steven Heck of Alpha Protocol (On second thought, maybe not him). It's safe to say that I'm still of the opinion that Obsidian has managed to pull the kind of dark characters we're talking about out best. But Avellone's distaste towards romances are well established, so yeah.

 

It would've I wanted to romance Kanji damnit.

 

Yeah I wouldn't want to romance Adachi either. He's too loony. The accomplice ending just gave me hives.

 

But yeah I have to agree with Obsidian doing it. I liked the DS outcome with Atton and a fem exile well enough..

 

 

It's amazing how people here apparently thought Bleach might turn out to be good. It's a ****** fighting shounen.

 

To be fair so was Code Geass and that ended fine.

[KainD]

But yeah I have to agree with Obsidian doing it. I liked the DS outcome with Atton and a fem exile well enough..

 

He was the only romance that followed the Exile after she left.

[Lennard Testarossa]

To be fair so was Code Geass and that ended fine.

 

That wasn't a fighting shounen, though, just a shounen. (Well, technically, it wasn't even that.)

[Ryzaki]

That wasn't a fighting shounen, though, just a shounen. (Well, technically, it wasn't even that.)

 

True enough.

 

 

He was the only romance that followed the Exile after she left.

 

We do not speak of the other male.

[Dean_the_Young]

I admit I like that in the rain scene they added in the anime and not just because I had my yaoi shipper goggles on. It was just so sad. But that armor piercing question he got Light got me

 

 

Though movie ending was a mutual death right? XD I think I'd preferred it end like that then that weirdo Near and Mello and Matt coming out of nowhere.

 

It wasn't but now....

 

In the Live Action movie, L gets Light by writing his own name in the death note so that he can set the exact conditions for his death at the maximum time allowed. This pre-empts Light's own Death Note gambit, which allows L to capture him, so L dies in peace later having already caught Kira.

 

 

 

Oh man I wish I had been able to play female in golden just to kick his creepy ass.

 

Though imagining the accomplice ending as a femPC

 

smh

 

 

Adachi's a good example of a non-woobie villain, but he's also too much of a villain to make a plausible LI. It's not that he's amoral, or even a misogynist, but rather that his entire motivation is that he's a bored sociopath who gets more pleasure watching people run around in a hurry than in interacting with them.

 

 

 

The amorality you can deal with- in fact, amorality can actually be a very useful device to provide for a 'dark' character, because amorality is not (despite common misconception) synonymous with sociopathy. Sociopaths struggle to/can't form sincere emotional relationships with other people, but can understand morality that doesn't depend on emotional sympathy and reaction. Amoral people are the inverse- they struggle with moral reasoning, but are able to have the non-moral aspects of holding and desiring relationships and emotional feelings.

 

The weird/interesting thing about amoral people is that they can often seem moral for amoral reasons. Like a narcissist who wants to be admired, they can base their actions more around what they think others will respond to than any inner sense of right or wrong. They don't care about guilt or innocence but they do care about you, which can make the other person an effective moral anchor and limiter on someone otherwise completely devoid of morals.

 

This can enter some creepy and disturbing levels of meta-analysis, but ultimately an amoral LI could be as immorally self-interested as the PC allowed them to be, but might also try to be as moral as the PC wanted them to be (so long as the relationship was valid). Think of it as the 'wiki-friends' effect, where people will change their claimed hobbies or enjoyments to align themselves with yours and foster a connection, but taken to morality.

 

(Or, at least, they will publicly do what they think you want... and privately, if they thought they could get away with something, do what they thought best. For themselves, or perhaps for you.)

[KainD]

I thought Sociopath was a person that had no morals. 

[Dean_the_Young]

It occurs to me- and I'm ashamed to bring this up now-

 

You know who was a good example of the 'Darker LI' we're talking about now? An actual Bioware character, no less?

 

Watcher Two, from the Imperial Agent storyline in SWTOR.

 

 

 

She's a support character a minor romance (though a comparitively large NPC romance arc by Bioware standards), but she checks a lot of the boxes I suspect need to be checked.

 

Working for the Secret Police of the Evil Empire? Check. Discusses catastrophic and incredibly intrusive security measures and policies of said Evil Empire as a matter of course and as if they were uncontroversial? Check. Routinely recommends the most pragmatic options for conflict resolution, even (especially) when faced with staggering civilian death toll? Check. Reveals internal moral insecurity at the prospect of civilian deaths in the same statement as casually admitting to having tortured a former coworker in cold blood? Check. Casual racist? Check.

 

Sincerely interested in your success and well being? Check. Loyal and reliable and supportive? Check. Affectionate within the space allowed by her duties? Checks. Does not place the PC above her own decisions and priorities? Check. Appropriate fade to black in tense period before climax of arc? Check.

 

The only bad thing about the Watcher 2 romance is that you can't resume it when the initial reason for it's suspension passes.

[TheChris92]

It occurs to me- and I'm ashamed to bring this up now-

 

You know who was a good example of the 'Darker LI' we're talking about now? An actual Bioware character, no less?

 

Watcher Two, from the Imperial Agent storyline in SWTOR.

 

 

 

She's a support character a minor romance (though a comparitively large NPC romance arc by Bioware standards), but she checks a lot of the boxes I suspect need to be checked.

 

Working for the Secret Police of the Evil Empire? Check. Discusses catastrophic and incredibly intrusive security measures and policies of said Evil Empire as a matter of course and as if they were uncontroversial? Check. Routinely recommends the most pragmatic options for conflict resolution, even (especially) when faced with staggering civilian death toll? Check. Reveals internal moral insecurity at the prospect of civilian deaths in the same statement as casually admitting to having tortured a former coworker in cold blood? Check. Casual racist? Check.

 

Sincerely interested in your success and well being? Check. Loyal and reliable and supportive? Check. Affectionate within the space allowed by her duties? Checks. Does not place the PC above her own decisions and priorities? Check. Appropriate fade to black in tense period before climax of arc? Check.

 

The only bad thing about the Watcher 2 romance is that you can't resume it when the initial reason for it's suspension passes.

I love Watcher Two/Keeper.

[Ryzaki]

In the Live Action movie, L gets Light by writing his own name in the death note so that he can set the exact conditions for his death at the maximum time allowed. This pre-empts Light's own Death Note gambit, which allows L to capture him, so L dies in peace later having already caught Kira.

 

 

Adachi's a good example of a non-woobie villain, but he's also too much of a villain to make a plausible LI. It's not that he's amoral, or even a misogynist, but rather that his entire motivation is that he's a bored sociopath who gets more pleasure watching people run around in a hurry than in interacting with them. 

 

Oooh that...sounds so much better than what we got. (The only decent part of the actual ending was Matsuda shooting Light's crazy self and L's spirit or whatever watching Light die).

 

He really is. I just want to punch him in the face and call it a day. Persona's villians just tend to be loons. At least Nyx couldn't help her damn self and is just responding to humanity's despair and longing for death. Adachi was just a waste of space.

 

 

This can enter some creepy and disturbing levels of meta-analysis, but ultimately an amoral LI could be as immorally self-interested as the PC allowed them to be, but might also try to be as moral as the PC wanted them to be (so long as the relationship was valid). Think of it as the 'wiki-friends' effect, where people will change their claimed hobbies or enjoyments to align themselves with yours and foster a connection, but taken to morality.

 

(Or, at least, they will publicly do what they think you want... and privately, if they thought they could get away with something, do what they thought best. For themselves, or perhaps for you.)

 

I thought they were different ways of saying the same thing? (Sociopath and amoral anyway).

 

That said yeah I can see it. But isn't that the dreaded special snowflake status some people are saying they hate? Or maybe it'll be for more people than just the PC?

 

But yeah I can see that too.

[Dean_the_Young]

I thought Sociopath was a person that had no morals. 

 

Sociopathy is focused more on inter-personal connections, such as empathy. Since empathy is one of the largest factors for moral convictions and behaviors, people who lack it tend to lack concern for harm to other people.

 

However, since empathy isn't the only basis for morality, even people who struggle with it can find and live ethically sound and moral lives. As an example, I remember a story long ago in which an identified sociopath turned to/relied on the deontological aspects of religion to guide his morality.

[Dean_the_Young]

That said yeah I can see it. But isn't that the dreaded special snowflake status some people are saying they hate? Or maybe it'll be for more people than just the PC?

 

 

Amorality is more of what you get with people like Wrex and Zaeed, who like you because -blank- and don't really care about what else you do so long as it doesn't negatively impact them.

 

Technically that's most of the ME cast, since Shepard's crew are a bunch of groupies who will love you despite almost anything you do regardless, but most of the cast simply has a moral blind spot for Shepard and otherwise keep consistent morals. Wrex and Zaeed are pretty consistent for everyone.

 

An amoral person taking a liking to you is about as much a special snowflake status as, well, anyone taking a liking to you. It's when sociopaths form emotional connections (which can and does happen, with certain people or over certain contexts) that special snowflake status is envoked.

[Ryzaki]

Amorality is more of what you get with people like Wrex and Zaeed, who like you because -blank- and don't really care about what else you do so long as it doesn't negatively impact them.

 

Technically that's most of the ME cast, since Shepard's crew are a bunch of groupies who will love you despite almost anything you do regardless, but most of the cast simply has a moral blind spot for Shepard and otherwise keep consistent morals. Wrex and Zaeed are pretty consistent for everyone.

 

An amoral person taking a liking to you is about as much a special snowflake status as, well, anyone taking a liking to you. It's when sociopaths form emotional connections (which can and does happen, with certain people or over certain contexts) that special snowflake status is envoked.

 

Oooh I see. And I'm outta likes so +1 for you.

 

It is kind of absurd that Liara in ME1 can like renedouche who's a racist hate spewing mess. Oh well. Love apparently makes you insane.

[heretica]

We need a romanceable Tate Langdon.

 

Ah wait. We got one! Maybe Cole will be the next Cullen and we'll be able to romance him in Dragon Age V: The Tevinter Imperium Strikes Back. 

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Oooh I see. And I'm outta likes so +1 for you.

 

You can come back tomorrow and award me my due.
 

 

It is kind of absurd that Liara in ME1 can like renedouche who's a racist hate spewing mess. Oh well. Love apparently makes you insane.

 

 

And a creepy stalker.

 

Ever done a total Renegade 'I do not like you in any way, shape, or form' runthrough? I get that she lost her mother, but-

 

Personally I blame the stasis bubble that she was stuck in until after Virmire. She was going crazy then, just more obviously.

[Ryzaki]

And a creepy stalker.

 

Ever done a total Renegade 'I do not like you in any way, shape, or form' runthrough? I get that she lost her mother, but-

 

Personally I blame the stasis bubble that she was stuck in until after Virmire. She was going crazy then, just more obviously.

 

Indeed.

 

I did! The freaking renegade no in her romance was bugged. And once you're trapped in her romance there's no freaking escape. I pretty much lost it.

 

Indeed.

 

We need a romanceable Tate Langdon.

 

Ah wait. We got one! Maybe Cole will be the next Cullen and we'll be able to romance him in Dragon Age V: The Tevinter Imperium Strikes Back. 

 

 

Isn't Cole mentally a child? Yeah no thanks.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Isn't Cole mentally a child? Yeah no thanks.

He might mature.

[Dean_the_Young]

Isn't Cole mentally a child? Yeah no thanks.

 

Less 'child' and more 'certainly not an adult.' It's better to think of him as a developing sapient.

 

At least it's post-puberty.

[TheChris92]

He really is. I just want to punch him in the face and call it a day. Persona's villians just tend to be loons. At least Nyx couldn't help her damn self and is just responding to humanity's despair and longing for death. Adachi was just a waste of space.

 

I'd say that Adachi's seemingly simplicity, the fact that he's no criminal mastermind, but just a broken man who was granted incredible power is what makes him interesting but incredibly dangerous as a villain. His state of being refers to the psychological term, deviced by Kierkegård called "ressentiment" referenced several times in that same game. It involves a sense of hostility, which is directed at the source of the the individual's frustration, that is, an assignment of blame for one's frustration. The feeling of weakness of being inferior and jealous in the face of that same 'cause' triggers a self-developed moral compass, which blocks out the perceived source of frustration. Think of it as a scapegoat, which the ego manifests to insulate itself from any culpability, perpetrated by the individual (no matter how immoral).

It refers to Adachi's monologue on "talent only mattering" in the world he wanted to wipe away and it is there where it becomes relevant.

 

In the light of this - Adachi was the player's true 'shadow' a void of a man that acts without conscience or reason. Where the player's talent uplifts those around him, Adachi uses his power to do whatever he likes, just as he became a policeman for want of a gun license and A power trip. It's even implied that his assignment to Inaba was an act of punishment for some unrevealed sin, further emphasizing that he was a total dick. 

Though he earns a shred of redemption via his "true ending" letter, he is pathetic beyond pity.

This is what makes him compelling though. An example of what humanity can become when they've given up hope.

 

But anyway, disregarding him -- The reason I brought him up was simply because I love him as a villain but can't really see him as a layout for a LI.

The reference was more in line with how I'd like to see these 'so-called' darker characters, if you will, written with that same amount of care and finesse on par with say Obsidian's characters.

Heck, I'd love more characters like Steven Heck, Atton, Bao-Dur, Mira and even Canderous.

It's safe to say that my interest is still directed towards a character like Atton who subverts the usual Han-Solo tropes in light of something much deeper and disturbing, once he actually relates his backstory to you and pretty much says that he didn't ever regret anything he did during those days.

[Ryzaki]

He might mature.

 

Fair enough. I guess we'd need a decent time skip for DA4 though.

 

Less 'child' and more 'certainly not an adult.' It's better to think of him as a developing sapient.

 

At least it's post-puberty.

 

It's close enough.

 

Still too young for me!

[heretica]

Mentally a child? I think they meant as "naive, not experienced" not as "has the mind of a 5 year old, can't go to the bathroom on his own cause he is scared of the dark". We shall see when the game comes out. 

[Ryzaki]

I'd say that Adachi's seemingly simplicity, the fact that he's no criminal mastermind, but just a broken man who was granted incredible power is what makes him interesting but incredibly dangerous as a villain. His state of being refers to the psychological term, deviced by Kierkegård called "ressentiment" referenced several times in that same game. It involves a sense of hostility, which is directed at the source of the the individual's frustration, that is, an assignment of blame for one's frustration. The feeling of weakness of being inferior and jealous in the face of that same 'cause' triggers a self-developed moral compass, which blocks out the perceived source of frustration. Think of it as a scapegoat, which the ego manifests to insulate itself from any culpability, perpetrated by the individual (no matter how immoral).

It refers to Adachi's monologue on "talent only mattering" in the world he wanted to wipe away and it is there where it becomes relevant.

 

In the light of this - Adachi was the player's true 'shadow' a void of a man that acts without conscience or reason. Where the player's talent uplifts those around him, Adachi uses his power to do whatever he likes, just as he became a policeman for want of a gun license and A power trip. It's even implied that his assignment to Inaba was an act of punishment for some unrevealed sin, further emphasizing that he was a total dick. 

Though he earns a shred of redemption via his "true ending" letter, he is pathetic beyond pity.

This is what makes him compelling though. An example of what humanity can become when they've given up hope.

 

But anyway, disregarding him -- The reason I brought him up was simply because I love him as a villain but can't really see him as a layout for a LI.

The reference was more in line with how I'd like to see these 'so-called' darker characters, if you will, written with that same amount of care and finesse on par with say Obsidian's characters.

Heck, I'd love more characters like Steven Heck, Atton, Bao-Dur, Mira and even Canderous.

It's safe to say that my interest is still directed towards a character like Atton who subverts the usual Han-Solo tropes in light of something much deeper and disturbing, once he actually relates his backstory to you and pretty much says that he didn't ever regret anything he did during those days.

 

Ah. That's a good explanation. Still want to punch him in the face though :3

 

But yeah I see what you mean. Atton Also Canderous man. I was so sad I couldn't romance him on my DS lady Revan. Guys could get Bastila to go to the dark side with them but us ladies were just screwed. Or not screwed as the case maybe.

 

And now you got me wanting to replay KOTOR2. Well least it'll be something to tide me over til DAI.

[Ryzaki]

Mentally a child? I think they meant as "naive, not experienced" not as "has the mind of a 5 year old, can't go to the bathroom on his own cause he is scared of the dark". We shall see when the game comes out. 

 Well either way I'd feel a bit creepy trying to start a relationship with him =/

[heretica]

 Well either way I'd feel a bit creepy trying to start a relationship with him =/

 

Yeah, lol. I agree with you. But some people might find that interesting. Terrible people. 

[TheChris92]

 Well either way I'd feel a bit creepy trying to start a relationship with him =/

Is that what you told yourself when you romanced Ken, RY-ZAKI!?

[Ryzaki]

Is that what you told yourself when you romanced Ken, RY-ZAKI!?

 

HEY I DID FEEL CREEPY THAT WHOLE DAMN ROMANCE.

 

(But it did severely help that the PC's a teenager and not a grown woman. I wouldn't have done it if she was :X )