534 réponses à ce sujet

[The Loyal Nub]

The jitters are certainly making us feel twitchy... 

 

 

I am just ready to decide for myself now. It's the silly season though cause the game is close yet still far so everyone's going nuts with predictions and worry.

[Ianamus]

Dagna, Ruck, all the prep missions in Redcliff, Every other dalish elf, personal companion sidequests that were uncovered by spending time with the character and either required no combat or completely unique combat scenarios like Leliana's, all with significant story choices. On and on. The Chanter's Boards etc. you could just run into on the way like DA2's crafting components. Not much fetching required. And even a number of those types resulted in interesting conversations and choices. I haven't seen anything like that in DA:I's promo material yet. I hope they really do get more impressive in the game. Small sample, like they said.

 

Dragon Age Inquisition likely has more than ten times the number of side missions in Origins, if not more. They can't all be dialogue and story-heavy.

 

Also, the choice and consequence trailer specifically mentioned companion-specific side missions, and showed a snippet of the Inquisitor talking to Cassandra about what is presumably hers.

[cindercatz]

I agree, however, when you watch others play and it looks like they are not good at the game or seem more incompetent; then you would expect it makes it hard to put much stock in their opinion. I've had to deal with this in the fighter and FPS scene for awhile now. Also, if people complain the gameplay isn't as "crafted" as Origins, I'm not exactly going to be sad. There is a reason the game only sold 3 million.

I loved the combat in Origins for what it got right, but it wasn't like it was perfect of course. I think mainly the game just looked dated. I wasn't impressed the first few gameplay previews I saw. I bought it because they'd made KoTOR and Jade Empire. Overall, I still think those were prettier games with better combat. But DA:O wins on scale, customizability, story variance (though KoTOR might get it on execution there), and import continuity. DA:O was still about my third favorite game last console generation, imperfect as it was. 

 

edit: @ Ianamus  -I hope so.

[wcholcombe]

Yeah, no.

Firstly, the difference between teleporting on the map and you seeing where you are going on the map and then maybe encountering enemies etc. isn't huge, but it's there.

It's a throwback from the BG series, and it was a nice touch. You know, BG, the game DA was the "spiritual successor" to.

It may not seem much, but to a BG fan, it's a big deal.

And it was gone by the time DA2.

 

And secondly, I honestly can't see why someone who's played both games would want to say the side quests in them are the "same".

DA2 has basically no travelling, no exploring.

DA:O - does. Whether it's the Brecilian Forest of the Deep Roads -bigger maps that had side passages etc., or much deeper companion quests... DA:O side quests and stories were so much deeper than DA2 it's not even funny.

To your second point they have brought all that back in DAI.  To your first point, the encounters weren't random they were all scripted to occur.  the map vs. teleport is mostly semantics regarding his point about how the side quests were mostly all the same.

[Meltemph]

I loved the combat in Origins for what it got right, but it wasn't like it was perfect of course. I think mainly the game just looked dated. I wasn't impressed the first few gameplay previews I saw. I bought it because they'd made KoTOR and Jade Empire. Overall, I still think those were prettier games with better combat. But DA:O wins on scale, customizability, story variance (though KoTOR might get it on execution there), and import continuity. DA:O was still about my third favorite game last console generation, imperfect as it was. 

Eh, I found DAO to be very enjoyable, one of my favorites of that generation(not as good as BG, IWD, and some others, but good), however I'd never classify DAO or DA2 as having strong gameplay mechanics. I enjoyed DA2's gameplay a whole lot more and I did enjoy the games combat mechanics, but they imo had a lot of room for improvement. Although I've been saying this since 2009 on these forums, so I obviously dont have the same opinion as other people on these forums. DAI seems, to me, to be a step in the right direction, since imo BW's best combat mechanics were Jade Empire(despite that having a weaker story, imo). 

[wcholcombe]

...They outright stated they spent 4 hours running around playing fetch quests outside of any real story content, and they were just reviewing that lifeless bit of endless fetch quests and random combat. I don't see how anybody can say that's less than fair.

 

-No story requests: Incomplete

-Combat too action gamey, not as crafted as Origins: Yeah, kinda looks that way, at least outside the non-randomized story battles

-Minor random quest givers not having much interesting to say: Yeah, sounds like DA2's sidequests, which absolutely felt pointless

-Still looking forward to the game, but more cautiously: Perfectly reasonable. That's how I kind of feel with more details coming out.

-They miss the in-depth character stories from DA:O's origins, because they help you get to know, care about, and define your character: I completely agree.

 

Not a sugar coated hype vid, but self aware of how limited and incomplete their preview material was. Nothing wrong with it. I don't want video game media to all be part of the hype train. It's good to get a sober opinion when you're considering a purchase, even if you don't agree. They weren't bashing the game.

Umm have you watched any of the gameplay vids?

 

The 60 minute gameplay had lots of conversations, some simple some more in depth. Corporal Vale and the Horse breeder had in depth convos-if you are qunari, the lord of horse insults you and mocks you for your feet dragging the ground when you ride, the revered mother had depth,  if you read the hunter who gives you the kill ram's quest note, you understand plainly why he doesn't want to go back out with the templars and mages to go hunting.  The conversations with NPCs from what we saw are the same type of stuff you got ostagar and lothering. I won't compare it to the origin, because I haven't seen the prologue, but it is supposed to be very story heavy.

 

The battles all look about the same as they did in DAO, a little flashier...but I really don't care one way or the other about that, the pace is a little quicker, but that is a good thing as the combat system in DAO was broken anyway.  The battles seem exactly the same whether at the crossroads or running into bandits/apostates/templars in the hills.

 

the sidequest givers operate exactly the same as any of the ones in lothering or ostagar.

[JosephShrike]

DA:O had a ton of fetch quests. The Chanter's Board, the Mage Collective, and the Irregular missions being the big ones. There were also ones like it Lothering to find/craft poisons, traps, and potions, which I suppose could arguably be more interactive tutorials which is fine. The point is that both DA games had them and it didn't ruin the game. Like people have already said, I think people are remembering DA:O too fondly. I've been replaying it in anticipation for DA:I (mainly so I can remember all the choices for the Keep) and while the characters and story are still very good, they are pretty much running at odds with how clunky and unresponsive the mechanics are, especially in the combat department. Give me a good story with good characters, better combat, and I'm happy to do as many fetch quests as you want in between.

[wcholcombe]

Dagna, Ruck, all the prep missions in Redcliff, Every other dalish elf, personal companion sidequests that were uncovered by spending time with the character and either required no combat or completely unique combat scenarios like Leliana's, all with significant story choices. On and on. The Chanter's Boards etc. you could just run into on the way like DA2's crafting components. Not much fetching required. And even a number of those types resulted in interesting conversations and choices. I haven't seen anything like that in DA:I's promo material yet. I hope they really do get more impressive in the game. Small sample, like they said.

Prep missions in Redcliff were fetch quests. They were the very definition of fetch quests.  Dagna was interesting convo, and Ruck you completed just following the game- both of those are late game quests, the area they are in is lothering which didn't have much depth to it either.  They have said that if you develope relatioinships with the companions you will unlock quests that give them more depth-but that didn't happen in ostagar or lothering in DAO.

 

We know from Cameron Lees on mouth that there are quests-such as the ball at the winter palace- that involve politics and intrigue to settle.  But just like in DAO, that is late game stuff, it wasn't in Lothering or Ostagar.

[wcholcombe]

Could be. They did say it skipped the opening story section, too. I could see that being because of serious spoilers, like we don't know who all dies at the first, for instance. I'm sure there's a good reason for it.

Also, in the previews, you couldn't go to redcliff or Val Royueax. Redcliff you were outleveled and the one preview that someone tried it they got party wiped and the preview ends after the CGI of you entering VR.  They are trying not to give the story away.

[wcholcombe]

Dragon Age Inquisition likely has more than ten times the number of side missions in Origins, if not more. They can't all be dialogue and story-heavy.

 

Also, the choice and consequence trailer specifically mentioned companion-specific side missions, and showed a snippet of the Inquisitor talking to Cassandra about what is presumably hers.

Also, we have seen one relating to Josephine in the skyhold preview.

[TheCreeper]

People don't seem to quite get that most of the quests we've been seeing in these videos, and the one subject to the most complaints, are basically DA:I's verison of the Chantry Board Quests, this is exactly like playing around in Lothering and only doing those quests only this time it's slightly more immersive. Yeah they're not compelling but these sorts of quests have been around since the very beginning and it's very dishonest to argue otherwise.

[Meltemph]

People don't seem to quite get that most of the quests we've been seeing in these videos, and the one subject to the most complaints, are basically DA:I's verison of the Chantry Board Quests, this is exactly like playing around in Lothering and only doing those quests only this time it's slightly more immersive. Yeah they're not compelling but these sorts of quests have been around since the very beginning and it's very dishonest to argue otherwise.

I doubt they dont get it. I'd bet they are purposely interpreting it like they do.

[Keroko]

Yeah, no.
Firstly, the difference between teleporting on the map and you seeing where you are going on the map and then maybe encountering enemies etc. isn't huge, but it's there.
It's a throwback from the BG series, and it was a nice touch. You know, BG, the game DA was the "spiritual successor" to.
It may not seem much, but to a BG fan, it's a big deal.
And it was gone by the time DA2.

 

Okay, so it's a teleport with a cleverly disguised loading screen occasionally interrupted by random encounters. As fun as those random encounters could be, that is still just teleporting to the quest location. If you want actual travel, you're going to be looking at games like KotoR if you want to keep it simple, Skyrim if you want it more complex.
 
Also Dragon Age the franchise was never intended to be the spiritual successor of BG. Origins was the spiritual successor, but the franchise itself was always intended to be its own thing with each game having its own mechanics and story, set in the same world.
 

And secondly, I honestly can't see why someone who's played both games would want to say the side quests in them are the "same".
DA2 has basically no travelling, no exploring.
DA:O - does. Whether it's the Brecilian Forest of the Deep Roads -bigger maps that had side passages etc., or much deeper companion quests... DA:O side quests and stories were so much deeper than DA2 it's not even funny.

What travel? What exploring? Travel was done by walking to the nearest edge of the map and clicking the destination you want to go. Once there, you follow the main roads and that's it. The side passages you mention were short and lead to dead ends with nothing interesting or useful. That's no more exploring than worming your way through the streets of lowtown is.

[Scerene]

People don't seem to quite get that most of the quests we've been seeing in these videos, and the one subject to the most complaints, are basically DA:I's verison of the Chantry Board Quests, this is exactly like playing around in Lothering and only doing those quests only this time it's slightly more immersive. Yeah they're not compelling but these sorts of quests have been around since the very beginning and it's very dishonest to argue otherwise.

haha, yes they are getting it, but willfully filtering out anything that doesnt support their whining. Yesterday i was checking a DAI article on gamespot, and some moron posted something about how they should bring back the huge character creator they had in DAO, and why they didnt include body sliders in DAI cc, completely ignoring the fact that DAI cc is  a million times deeper than dao, which never even had body slider to begin with. Basically even when DAI does a feature much better than origin, something new is made up to hold against DAI which is based on a much higher standard than origins ever achieved. Then when another topic comes up, theyll bring up a feature that DAI does better than origin, but make up a reason to hold it to a much higher standard and ironically keep arguing that these inferior features from DAO that were much improved upon in DAI( something they themselves agree) are infact, still better in DAO(something that is prevalent in this very thread). Honestly many people are absolutely intent on despising anything bioware does, and switch back and forth between reasons and justifications to do so, even if said reasons contradict the previous ones, and no matter how deluded or devoid of rationality they are.

[Andres Hendrix]

Wat? So all this time, all you wanted to say is everyone uses the fade for magic? Seriously? I thought you were trying to make the argument that Quanri mages are no different then Thedas mages.

I think that is just what you had in your own head lol. I did not argue once that Qunari mages and circle mages are the same in tems of schools. I first used the Socratic Method to ask if there are in fact two separate forces used in magic in Dragon Age--meaning two completely different categories of forces, Magic, and ‘Separate Force’. That was not the case, I then argued that the main differences were the schools, (or variables, variables vary) not Magic as the natural governing force.All mages pertian to that natural governing force.

[berrieh]

I don't understand people attacking tihs review.

 

It is a fact that DA:I side quests are very Mass Effecty... You click, port somewhere, kill 5 mobs, port back.

Especially the "missions". Click map on table, etc.

 

At this point, my pre-order aside, the more I'm hearing about the game, the more scared I am.

I am honestly of the DA2 phenomenon all over again.

I want a deep, immersive RPG.

I'm dreading we might be getting another "expensive, shiny turd" thing on here.

All shine and "omg graphics"... but when you dig in, the depth isn't there.

 

You don't port to any place within the area, do you? You can only enter areas through specific points or campsites, right? Also...I ported to the Brecilian Forest and Orzammar and such in DAO and places where I couldn't directly port (from Orzammar to the map, having to go through the stupid Frostbacks) were just annoying, it's not like there was anything new to see going back. DA:I will have actual exploration - stuff to see, actual "random encounters" as there is some evolution of the world around you (how random, I'm unsure, but better than those scripted loading-screen interruptions in DA:O). 

 

Second of all, plenty of the side quests in DA2 were involved. The Bone Pit stuff, for example, even evolved over all 3 acts. The wife who disappeared was interesting. Lots of the story was told through optional quests. The act structure made it feel like there were less side quests overall, but I don't think so. Maybe slightly less because of that short 3rd act. Though, in my view, the only REAL fetch quests in DA2 were the Herbalist guy's because all the other "fetch quests" didn't even call upon you to fetch anything; you just got a thing automatically. There were also better companion and story quests in DA2, in my view, and it's not like the game was mostly fetching stuff. There was hardly anything to fetch. And most of the optional content in DA:O I don't even do when I replay because it's that boring. Yes, Dagna is awesome, but collecting nugs is not. People just remember the good ones is all. I skip very little in DA2 when I replay, personally. (DA2 has less content overall, as it was super-rushed, but I don't think the content it has is inferior in terms of story-purpose.) 

 

Third of all, the DA:I quests do seem to have flavor. You don't get to make choices terribly often, it seems, but the actual gameplay footage we've seen has shown things these guys missed. That makes their view a bit suspect. But, really, why I'm skeptical is because they set out to evaluate it not as a game, but as DA:O2. The guy basically admits that's what he wants. If that's what you want, this game is not it. Bioware never claimed it is. They claimed they learned lessons from both games and continued to evolve. 

 

Aside from certain Chanter's Quests, every single side quests in DA:O involved a mix of travelling, exploring and fighting.

 

 

All you do to travel in DA:O is click on the map. There is literally no exploring (levels are a straight line with a few corners) and the traveling is done mostly on the loading screen. I love helping Dagna because she's adorable (and thus always do, despite my annoyance at the loading screens), but the actual gameplay of leaving Orzammar, walking through the Frostbacks, clicking the Tower, talking to the FE, and then clicking Orzammar again is not particularly compelling. Neither is collecting love letters. Neither is going to places of power. I just don't get the sense that every side quest in DA:O is an adventure. 

 

 

...No? Pretty much all sidequests in Origins where "Get quest, map travel to location, kill stuff, get quest item, return."

"Travelling" in Origins was mostly done by clicking on the map as well, if you recall.

 

This was my impression. Traveling in DA:I looks really interesting since we even have mounted travel within the region, etc. 

 

Yeah, no.

Firstly, the difference between teleporting on the map and you seeing where you are going on the map and then maybe encountering enemies etc. isn't huge, but it's there.

It's a throwback from the BG series, and it was a nice touch. You know, BG, the game DA was the "spiritual successor" to.

It may not seem much, but to a BG fan, it's a big deal.

And it was gone by the time DA2.

 

DA2 had a few of these scripted interrupts too (Fenris being hunted, for example). Less, to be sure (but it is a much shorter game), but those aren't random encounters in DA:O. They're scripted. Their timing changes slightly based on party composition sometimes, but they happen at roughly the same points each time. I like DA:O but the more I played it, the more I noticed that. It broke any sense of immersion it added the first time. 

 

In a game with open areas, you can have more random encounters while actually exploring. Why doesn't that sound better? 

 

Umm have you watched any of the gameplay vids?

 

The 60 minute gameplay had lots of conversations, some simple some more in depth. Corporal Vale and the Horse breeder had in depth convos-if you are qunari, the lord of horse insults you and mocks you for your feet dragging the ground when you ride, the revered mother had depth,  if you read the hunter who gives you the kill ram's quest note, you understand plainly why he doesn't want to go back out with the templars and mages to go hunting.  The conversations with NPCs from what we saw are the same type of stuff you got ostagar and lothering. I won't compare it to the origin, because I haven't seen the prologue, but it is supposed to be very story heavy.

 

This is where my cognitive dissonance comes from. Even in the low-spoiler vids we have, the NPCs seem to have a fair amount to say, compared to those in DAO. It just doesn't mesh with what this vid said.

[aries1001]

Must be why they immediatly close threads when a "what is an rpg" discussion pops up. Best to blurr the genres as much as possible, an keep a foot in both camps (action and rpg).

 

Maybe - byt my point was more about that Bioware now essentially seem to think that Skyrim is the -holy grail - of the rpg genre. And thus the correct way to go when developing a modern day rpg - as they, Bioware, probably would call it. Also, I'm not sure that Bioware really will get maybe 5 million or even 2-3 million of the players that played Skyrim to buy and play DA: Inquisition.
Also this: Skyrim was released in 2011 e.g. about three years ago. And a lot of things have happened in those years. Let me point you towards Divinity: Origin Sin, Wasteland and Planescape Torment: Tides of Numera etc. These games all have that old shcool feeling which awards both exploring and being able to to be reflective about what the player is doing in the game...

[Meltemph]

I think that is just what you had in your own head lol. I did not argue once that Qunari mages and circle mages are the same in tems of schools. I first used the Socratic Method to ask if there are in fact two separate forces used in magic in Dragon Age--meaning two completely different categories of forces, Magic, and ‘Separate Force’. That was not the case, I then argued that the main differences were the schools, (or variables, variables vary) not Magic as the natural governing force.All mages pertian to that natural governing force.

Oh, I only got into the subject becuse I thought somehwere along the lines someone said they didnt understand why Qunari(the religion) mages would be treated/viewed as something different then Qunari(horned race but dont grow up in the religion) mages.

[Hillbillyhat]

Dagna, Ruck, all the prep missions in Redcliff, Every other dalish elf, personal companion sidequests that were uncovered by spending time with the character and either required no combat or completely unique combat scenarios like Leliana's, all with significant story choices. On and on. The Chanter's Boards etc. you could just run into on the way like DA2's crafting components. Not much fetching required. And even a number of those types resulted in interesting conversations and choices. I haven't seen anything like that in DA:I's promo material yet. I hope they really do get more impressive in the game. Small sample, like they said.

Most of those quests I've done hours into the game. Redcliffe quests were basically talk for a few minutes and fetch materials. The problem with using Redcliffe quests is that they were still connected to the main story in some way which was preparing for a battle. Leliana's side quest is specific for the character and we know that we're going to get similar quests just by looking at one of the most recent trailers.

 

Also why would DAI show a large amount of in depth side quests that are probably in some way connected to the main story or spoilers about certain characters? A year ago Bioware has been more secretive when it came to plot or even major character spoilers. There is room to be critical, but I'm still not seeing enough of DAI to consider all side quests to be dumbed down in comparison to DAO or 2. Hell whats better about DAI so far seems to be that basically all the quests have a impact on plot progression in someway.

[wcholcombe]

Go watch the previews by Lady Insanity or even Angry Joe.

 

Granted Angry Joes mostly spoils the prologue, but both of them seem to love the game

 

and Ashe flat out trashes the idea that DAI isn't a deep story driven narrative. Plus she has other videos talking about race references and a little reference to how your decisions are reflected in game from previous games.

[cindercatz]

@wcholcombe & @hillbillyhat -I never found the video with the quests you brought up (horse trader etc.), but it sounds good the way you tell it. What I'm hoping to see with sidequests are more integration into the main plot and a lot more story content and dialogue. No 'I need so-and-so, and I can pay' stuff without more dialogue to give real context. I'm not saying it's not there. I'm saying I hope it is. DA2 had a lot of 'I'll pay!' type sidequests, which was the point of comparison. In DA:O, even the chanter's board quests usually had decent context by text or dialogue or both, and story context for the chanter's one line responses, which were funny. DA2's version was just a random item and a random return, albeit with some amusing befuddlement.

 

@Meltemph -Combat- I love the stronger tactical elements, the emphasis on what I called "battlefield tactics" when I asked for them, and the more interesting level and encounter design, that whole package. What I was referring to as less "crafted", what bums me out about it, are the action gamey mechanics that got all those huge threads: the attack trigger, the 8 ability slot limit, and the unsynched attack chains with no auto defense (so the basic combat is more interesting to watch and build stats for, and I can just focus on the tactics). I play mostly real time, so hopefully I can play the whole thing real time in tac cam, because I'm not doing the attack trigger, and hopefully we've got extensive custom tactics programming available (which was the bit of most recent info I was referring to), because my playstyle will be pretty much extinct if not. That's where I'm worried, so when I hear 'actioney combat', that's pretty much exactly what I'm worried about.

 

edit: Will do, for non-spoilery reviews. I'm trying not to spoil myself in the last week though. I bought the game months ago.

haha, yes they are getting it, but willfully filtering out anything that doesnt support their whining. /snip/ Honestly many people are absolutely intent on despising anything bioware does, and switch back and forth between reasons and justifications to do so, even if said reasons contradict the previous ones, and no matter how deluded or devoid of rationality they are.

I was never whining.  I was just saying this little pseudo review video seems honest and fair enough, and I agree with the reviewers themselves that it's not nearly large enough a sample size to make a critical judgement about anything, really. These kind of knee jerk irrational attacks on anything that's not completely promotional bug me. I don't like it when people pile on and mob somebody because they don't completely agree with you. And I like sober opinions in review media.

 

I also don't like being mischaracterized. I'm sure it's not thrilling for them either. Ho-hum as it is. I expect it.

[TKavatar]

 and hopefully we've got extensive custom tactics programming available (which was the bit of most recent info I was referring to), because my playstyle will be pretty much extinct if not. 

 

Unfortunately the extensive tactics system of DAO and DA2 doesn't exist in DAI. It's been massively "streamlined" and we have lost a ton of options.

 

[Little Princess Peach]

But Op we can jump now we can freaken JUMP!

[cindercatz]

Oh god that tactics video was brutal..

Thanks for the heads up.

 

At least we have a 'when appropriate' option for abilities.. That's going to cause problems. I also noticed there's no custom behavior ai, movement and specific targeting, when not to attack etc. Mostly looks the tactics I actually avoided are our only options >< other than potion use, and that was always just a one script line last resort. Damn. This confirms my fears, I guess.

[Varus Praetor]

I was hoping for either the option to script behavior like "keep at range" or the need to not use them due to smart AI.  Unfortunately it sounds like companions are kind of garbage at that and like to run into the badness a lot.