181 réponses à ce sujet

[Teddie Sage]

One of the reasons why I did not enjoy DA2 and the Hawke character in particular, is because it created a dissonance. The Warden is a true hero. A legend. Hawke on the other side always felt like a "nouveau riche pimp screw-up" to me. Essentially a nobody that gets undeserved praise.

DA:O and DA2 are in a crass conflict because of this. I do not acknowledge DA2 as a proper sequel to DA:O.

It looks like that honour will fall to DA:I. In order to have the most enjoyable experience and to put things in the proper light, I will make Hawke as insignificant as possible (thanks to the Keep). No killing high dragons and Varric won't be his friend either. His greatest accomplishments will be surviving his mother and siblings, scraping Sela Petrae from the bottom of the sewers for Anders, betraying Isabella to the Arishok and somehow managing to survive the Mage-Templar conflict. Probably by hiding under Sandal's bed. Oh, and unleashing Corypheus, of course.

That will hopefully reduce the amount of Hawke's undeserved mentions.

Wow... Someone clearly has anger issues.

[sylvanaerie]

Are we still bashing on Hakwe?  And her evil twin Hawke?

Poor kid.  The redheaded step child of Dragon Age.

[Alejandrawrr]

Whew lordT. Thank the Maker I wasn't here during DA2's run, the amount of petulance and brattiness from what I presume are adults in regards to Hawke is just too much   

as a sidenote: I love my Warden and Origins as much as the next guy, but it's significantly overrated on this site (or at least, by a vocal minority). It was essentially one RPG/fantasy cliche after another, DA2's story was much better and less expected in most aspects, it was just certain gameplay mechanics and I suppose the lack of much choice in pivotal plot points which were marks against it compared to it's predecessor. Not bashing DAO or the Warden, as I have probably 2x as many playthroughs in Origins compared to DA2, and I'm certainly more connected to my Warden than I am to Hawke (and I would love to see the former make an appearance again), but seriously.

[HellaciousHutch]

99.9% certain you won't be able to ignore Hawke, especially when the developers themselves have stated in some live streams that Hawke is important to the overall story of Inquisition (same with Morrigan).

[WildOrchid]

The funny thing is, one can make the Warden much much worse than this. Hell, your Warden can be a total psycho and not even be the one to finish off the Archdemon in the end, and then you can get the glory for someone else's noble sacrifice. In the end, the Warden is only a true hero if you wish him/her to be. It's not something that's automatic.

 

Honestly, my city elf basically coasted to victory on the shoulders of Loghain.

 

Burn.

Sometimes I wonder if all those Hawke haters ever think at all.

[Paul E Dangerously]

If you do, he just needs to stride off into the sunset saying something about "No? Ah, that's fine..I have to go meet the Hero of Ferelden anyway."

[phantomrachie]

No, maybe I'm not explaining myself correctly.

 

I doubt Bioware devs don't like Origins plot, characters, or story. Never tried to imply the contrary. I think they want to "forget" about Origins because they think it's archaic, gameplay wise. The fact that they bring back Hawke again, and not the warden, it's like another little step to try to give relevance to a game they feel it's closer their new look of the franchise.

 

Of course, I don't share your opinion about DA2. You call it rectification, and I call it homogenization. But I feel that's just a matter taste.

 

They can't give the Warden a cameo in a game, there are WAY too many ways to mess it up.

 

Here are just a few of the challenges with giving the Warden a cameo.

 

• The Warden was a silent protagonist, so they can't speak to the Inquisitor in the same way Hawke can.
• The Warden had no personality (as in sarcastic, diplomatic, aggressive) so BioWare can't make reasonable assumptions on how the Warden should be behaving like the can with Hawke.
• It is possible for the Warden to be dead, so they can't have a meaningful cameo, were as it's not possible for Hawke to be dead.
• The Warden's story was about the 5th Blight & its aftermath, which is over now, Hawke's story was about  Mages V Templar's & The Qunari, which is still going on.

The only way to bring the Warden back, is to make a new game were the Warden is the protagonist.

[TheJediSaint]

I, for one, look forward seeing Hawke again in DAI.

 

I hope Hawke and my Inquisitor will have awesome adventures together.

[WildOrchid]

They can't give the Warden a cameo in a game, there are WAY too many ways to mess it up.

 

Here are just a few of the challenges with giving the Warden a cameo.

 

• The Warden was a silent protagonist, so they can't speak to the Inquisitor in the same way Hawke can.
• The Warden had no personality (as in sarcastic, diplomatic, aggressive) so BioWare can't make reasonable assumptions on how the Warden should be behaving like the can with Hawke.
• It is possible for the Warden to be dead, so they can't have a meaningful cameo, were as it's not possible for Hawke to be dead.
• The Warden's story was about the 5th Blight & its aftermath, which is over now, Hawke's story was about  Mages V Templar's & The Qunari, which is still going on.

The only way to bring the Warden back, is to make a new game were the Warden is the protagonist.

 

Can I like this post x100 times?

Especially those 2 bolded parts are very good points.

[Salaya]

Define how it's "archaic gameplay-wise"? To suggest gameplay is to make reference towards the antiquated combat, of which was the major criticism of DAO, and rightfully so. Are you referring to the art-style change? I personally wouldn't consider that gameplay and it was certainly an improvement over DAO. Unless you are perhaps referring to the silent protagonist instead or perhaps the lack of a dialogue wheel? I'm not quite sure I'm following how BioWare is trying to forget anything. They certainly have been taking steps to improve and streamline systems that were otherwise poorly conveyed or excessive in nature previously.

 

I refer to combat and dialogue, mostly. But more little details I don't see the point refering here -because I think it adds nothing to this thread discussion-. Criticism and perception are subjective things. Wether there were people who criticized DAOs combat or the contrary, does not prove it was bad or good in any means. I personally loved it. Hence, those steps to "improve" gameplay seem exactly the contrary to me.
 

 

 

With respect to Hawke, his story was never finished. DA2's purpose was to explain his origin and for Leliana and Cassandra to find him. We knew all along Hawke would be integral in ending the Mage-Templar War, so this should not come as a surprise to anyone. As far as the Warden is concerned, while I believe his input would make sense, his purpose is certainly not as strong as Hawke's. BioWare will more than likely provide closure and explain any loose ends as to why the Warden "vanished" at the closing events of DA2.

 

I don't see how anything of this serves as proof of Hawke being relevant to DA:I. It's reasonable? Yes. But it would be also reasonable that she wouldn't have appeared. Plots are creative stories that may or may not have logical connections. And that is perfectly ok.

 

 

DAO's combat was atrocious. It was slow. It was awkward and clunky. It wasn't responsive. Excluding the tactical cam on PC, it was outright terrible and somewhat perplexing why BioWare would release a game with such antiquated game mechanics. DA2 was much faster, more responsive, and overall led to a more enjoyable experience. It inevitably was too quick, losing its weight, and the game came across more as a hack and slash than a party-based RPG. DAI looks to balance the strengths of DAO and DA2 into a system that provides something for everyone.

 

I don't think DAO's combat was anything of that. I really enjoyed Origins combat; I found it spectacular and fun. I had no issues with its speed or hypothetical clunkyness; on the contrary, it felt plausible (note that I have said plausible and not realistic). What surprises me is Bioware decided to erase all this to streamline the experience in the worse sense possible.

 

On the other hand, I could describe DA2 gameplay with just one word: childish. The speed, the simplicity and the hordes of enemies felt exteremely boring to me. I see why other people thinks DA2 is funnier, but that was not my case.

 

I understand a lot of people thinks as you, and also that a lot of people thinks as me, and it's ok. Obviously, I also think Inqiuisition is another step in many ways towards DA2 simplification, and I don't like it. But that's something I think right now, I don't deny the chance of Inquisition being a great game, maybe I change opinion when I play it: right now, for what I've seen, I have serious doubts.

 

[phantomrachie]

Can I like this post x100 times?

Especially those 2 bolded parts are very good points.

 

I'm thinking of putting these points in my status update on BSN. I feel like I have to make them at least once every few weeks. 

[Salaya]

They can't give the Warden a cameo in a game, there are WAY too many ways to mess it up.

 

Here are just a few of the challenges with giving the Warden a cameo.

 

• The Warden was a silent protagonist, so they can't speak to the Inquisitor in the same way Hawke can.
• The Warden had no personality (as in sarcastic, diplomatic, aggressive) so BioWare can't make reasonable assumptions on how the Warden should be behaving like the can with Hawke.
• It is possible for the Warden to be dead, so they can't have a meaningful cameo, were as it's not possible for Hawke to be dead.
• The Warden's story was about the 5th Blight & its aftermath, which is over now, Hawke's story was about  Mages V Templar's & The Qunari, which is still going on.

The only way to bring the Warden back, is to make a new game were the Warden is the protagonist.

 

You know, that it's easier to bring back Hawke does not exclude the possibility of bringing her for the reasons I mentioned.

 

I never denied the fact that is extremely easy to bring Hawke back, compared to the Warden. I simply don't like it for the reasons I've already explained, and I also believe they do it because they want, in part, to erase Origins legacy.

 

Also,it would be even easier not to bring her, so I don't really see your point.

[sylvanaerie]

What part of DAO's combat did you prefer?  Because for me, the animations of my Mage Hawke finally looking like she knew how to use a staff were far superior to the putt...putt....putt of my Surana's attack animation.  One of the chief reasons I made my Surana an AW was specifically so she could use a shield and blade and at least do one of the 3 combat animations in Origins I actually enjoyed watching:the shield slam.

 

The other 2 were that backward stab finishing move 2 handed spec users have and that spinning, dance like animation Zev got off when his decapitate finishing move triggered.

 

Three damn moves.  That's it.  In hours of gameplay.  After a dozen games of that crap I just started doing /killallhostiles during every fight.

 

Now I won't say combat in DA2 was flawless.  The endless waves of paratrooper bandits/etc swooping out of...no where...was just...silly.  But overall I found DA2 combat at the least not snooze inducing.  I never found it boring, and it was one of the things I did feel was an improvement over Origins.  I literally dozed off playing Origins during long dungeon slogs and endless repetitive plodding combat against darkspawn.  I can't say I ever did that playing DA2.

 

DAI combat looks to be...interesting...not sure if I can even handle it tbh.  But I'm curious about it anyway.  That's a good thing, I think.

 

So, if you don't want Hawke in the game at all..does that viewpoint also encompass the Warden as well, because the warden has even less relevance, unless the Inquisitor is battling the wardens, in which case, that's a whole other can of worms being opened there.  

 

Or is it just that you would rather not have either?  If I had my druthers, I'd have neither.  This isn't the old protagonists' story, this tale is about the Inquisitor, but I'm willing to wait and see what Bioware has in mind.  If the appearance of my Hawke is short, and plot relevant I won't mind a brief stint.  I suspect this is the case, but I'm willing to hold my opinion in reserve till I can actually see what's going on and why it's happening.

[Heimdall]

 
I never denied the fact that is extremely easy to bring Hawke back, compared to the Warden. I simply don't like it for the reasons I've already explained, and I also believe they do it because they want, in part, to erase Origins legacy.

You think they want to erase Origins' legacy? Why? I suppose they do in the sense that they want to move on to a new story with new Plotlines and not constantly revisiting old Plotlines.

[Paul E Dangerously]

You think they want to erase Origins' legacy? Why? I suppose they do in the sense that they want to move on to a new story with new Plotlines and not constantly revisiting old Plotlines.

 

The only fashion it's remotely similar to Origins is in racial choice. Certainly not the character build system.

 

You'd think DA2 were the more well-received game, given that it's drawing much more heavily from it.

[Muspade]

and I also believe they do it because they want, in part, to erase Origins legacy.

You'd think DA2 were the more well-received game, given that it's drawing much more heavily from it.

Certainly had more engaging combat.

[WildOrchid]

to erase Origins legacy.

 

They aren't trying to erase anything. Origins' story is over.

[Heimdall]

The only fashion it's remotely similar to Origins is in racial choice. Certainly not the character build system.
 
You'd think DA2 were the more well-received game, given that it's drawing much more heavily from it.

Hm? World traveling? Larger variety of environments? A form of tactical view? I'm fairly certain they didn't get those from DA2.

The combat was actually one of the better received parts of DA2, though both games recieved criticism for their combat (Despite what some people on these boards would have you believe).

From what I've seen, the character build system isn't like either previous game. It's new. I actually like that about Bioware devs, they're not afraid to experiment with the formula unlike a lot of AAA series I could mention.

[Paul E Dangerously]

Certainly had more engaging combat.

 

One step forward, three steps back. Encounter design that was an unmitigated disaster. Too many enemy HP sinks. Sped up to the extent they just went from 50% to 150%.

[Muspade]

One step forward, three steps back. Encounter design that was an unmitigated disaster. Too many enemy HP sinks. Sped up to the extent they just went from 50% to 150%.

 Notice how I said "Combat" and not "Encounter design". 

[Paul E Dangerously]

 Notice how I said "Combat" and not "Encounter design". 

 

It's all interconnected.

[phantomrachie]

You know, that it's easier to bring back Hawke does not exclude the possibility of bringing her for the reasons I mentioned.

 

I never denied the fact that is extremely easy to bring Hawke back, compared to the Warden. I simply don't like it for the reasons I've already explained, and I also believe they do it because they want, in part, to erase Origins legacy.

 

Also,it would be even easier not to bring her, so I don't really see your point.

 

I would argue that it's not only easier to bring Hawke back than it is the Warden but that it is almost impossible for the Warden to be brought back in a game with a different protagonist. 

 

To bring the Warden back in any meaningful way BioWare would have too;

• Give the Warden a voice because it would be weird if they didn't talk and all other NPCs did or provide a reason why they can't talk, (and personally any reason I can think of for this sounds silly)
• Give the Warden a personality or leave them without one. Any personality they give might contradict the one you created for them and if they have no personality they'll come across as bland.
• Make the Dark Ritual Cannon or find another reason for the Warden to be alive. BioWare can't put time & effort into creating a meaningful cameo for the Warden, if all players are not going to experience it.

Add that to the fact that BioWare have used some of the Exalted March Expansion as a quest in DA:I and it means that they simply want to finish off Hawke's story like they orginally wanted to but weren't able too not that they are trying to erase the Warden but

[Eudaemonium]

 Notice how I said "Combat" and not "Encounter design". 

 

I think this is a distinction that often gets overlooked. The encounter design in DA2 was pretty ghastly, by all measures. The actual combat, however, was rather fun and fluid and was one of the few things that kept you going through the ghastly encounter design. By and large, the actual combat mechanics were pretty well-received outside of very specific circles. I know a lot of people who got more into DA2 than Origins because they found the combat and gameplay a lot more engaging but eventually lost interest due to factors like the extremely narrow environments and endless wave encounters.

[sylvanaerie]

I think this is a distinction that often gets overlooked. The encounter design in DA2 was pretty ghastly, by all measures. The actual combat, however, was rather fun and fluid and was one of the few things that kept you going through the ghastly encounter design. By and large, the actual combat mechanics were pretty well-received outside of very specific circles. I know a lot of people who got more into DA2 than Origins because they found the combat and gameplay a lot more engaging but eventually lost interest due to factors like the extremely narrow environments and endless wave encounters.

 

This.  I wish I could "Like" this post 1000 times.  This was my experience with the combat in the 2 games.

[TheJediSaint]

They aren't trying to erase anything. Origins' story is over.

Only half the Keep is dedicated to the choices you made in Origins.  Clearly they're trying to pretend it never happened.