339 réponses à ce sujet

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

What? Cat got your key board?

Nope my wife says no posting at the dinner table. She's the boss.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

*deep sigh* I am well aware of the varied hue of people of color. While Isabella and Josephine may be of color, they are not of African descent. Vivienne is the only playable character you can't romance. That is my point. Vivienne is obviously African. Why is she not a romance option? THAT is MY point. Sheez!

Neither is Vivienne technically, since there is no Africa in the world of Thedas. She is of Rivaini descent, making her and Isabela the same race since Isabela is also of Rivaini descent. Meaning that Isabela is black. A lighter shade sure, but still black. 

 

Unh-huh. They didn't have to write in Bastien. That drafted Bianca has been around since DA:II. They chose not to have her as romance option. I never read about anyone clambering to have Varric as a romance option. He's sidekick material. Don't want to see him naked.

You clearly haven't read much of this forum then. Ever since DA2 first came out there have been lots of people wanting Varric to be a romance option. 

[Catilina]

Not or won't? Most folks are content in their comfort zone. Never daring to step out and view the world for the perspective of the "other". I have Caucasian friends, Native American friends, gay, lesbian and transgender friends. I make an effort to know them. I want to see the world from their perspective. I want to know them. And I've come to love them. My friends have made my life interesting and exciting. For me, now, there is no " other".

Not AND wont.

 

What do you want to hear?

[GoldenGail3]

Not AND wont.
 
What do you want to hear?

I think he's confused, Catlina.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Not AND wont.
 
What do you want to hear?

(Chuckle to self) Not surprised..or confused. Completely lucid.

[GoldenGail3]

(Chuckle to self) Not surprised..or confused. Completely lucid.

You seem confused to me. Maybe you should say something definite of what you mean.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

You seem confused to me. Maybe you should say something definite of what you mean.

What's to say? What's is it that you think I'm confused about? Is it because I said my reason why Vivienne is not a romance option because of her race that got you upset? Or is it me talking about race and racial stereotypes of women of color in video games that makes you uncomfortable? Sorry if I made you feel that way but I'm simply voicing my opinions from my own perpectives and as an observer, and you don't have to believe what I say, nor to take it personal, believe what you want to believe.

[GoldenGail3]

What's to say? What's is it that you think I'm confused about? Is it because I said my reason why Vivienne is not a romance option because of her race that got you upset? Or is it me talking about race and racial stereotypes of women of color in video games that makes you uncomfortable? Sorry if I made you feel that way but it is my opinion from my perpectives, and you don't have to believe what I say, nor to take it personal, believe what you want to believe.

No. I don't think she is. And not am I taking this personally. Your the one who so blindly believes she was suppose to be a romance when their is no reason to believe otherwise, and so you blame it on her skin color, which is false and assumption. And nor am i uncomfortable, please stop making these accusations. And explain to me; why isn't Varric a romance option or Cole for that matter - and yet you choose to whinge about Vivienne, a woman that tells you NO at every romance turn, isn't a romance? I'd like to know why you choose to blame it on her skin color when Josephine and Isabela both are dark skinned beauty's that you can romance? Is just be becuase they don't count becuase "They have too light of a skin color?" Unlike Vivienne?

Okay; I'm done with this stupid, idiotic discusssion.

[GoldenGail3]

Nope my wife says no posting at the dinner table. She's the boss.

OH - I personally don't think you were that old - since you decided to take my message seriously. IT WAS SCARCASM. And then you got all excited and shite when you did. I was being polite towards you by saying "You took this the wrong way..." Which you didn't understand until I said it the second time around. Lol...... Not to be a cyber bully or anything... Just pointing out....

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

No. I don't think she is. And not am I taking this personally. Your the one who so blindly believes she was suppose to be a romance when their is no reason to believe otherwise, and so you blame it on her skin color, which is false and assumption. And nor am i uncomfortable, please stop making these accusations. And explain to me; why isn't Varric a romance option or Cole for that matter - and yet you choose to whinge about Vivienne, a woman that tells you NO at every romance turn, isn't a romance? I'd like to know why you choose to blame it on her skin color when Josephine and Isabela both are dark skinned beauty's that you can romance? Is just be becuase they don't count becuase "They have too light of a skin color?" Unlike Vivienne?
Okay; I'm done with this stupid, idiotic discusssion.

Whoa whoa whoa!! Relax! Let's take this nice and slow. First of all I did romanced Isabella and Josie with my male character and I never said their skin color isn't good enough for me, I don't even give a damn how light or how dark they are anyway. I'm just dissapointed that I can't romance an actual black woman with my male character in DA:I and I just stated the obvious of why she's not a LI and I love black women and women of color. And I just don't see Varric and Cole attractive to me (cause I'm a man and I don't see other male characters attractive. Romancing Cole is like romancing a 4 yr old anyway.)

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Whoa whoa whoa!! Relax please! Let's take this nice and slow. First of all I did romanced Isabella and Josie with my male character and I never said their skin color isn't good enough for me, I don't even give a damn how light or how dark they are anyway. I'm just dissapointed that I can't romance an actual black woman with my male character in DA:I and I just stated the obvious of why she's not a LI and I love black women. I don't see Varric and Cole attractive to me (cause I'm a man and I don't see other male characters attractive. Romancing Cole is like romancing a 4 yr old anyway.)

Isabela is just as black as Vivienne since they are both Rivaini, with the only difference being Vivienne is a darker shade than Isabela. 

[ModernAcademic]

People seem to be confusing skin colour with ethnic traits and thinking they're all one and the same...

 

There are white skinned people with African traits in my country. And dark skinned people with Caucasian traits. Also dark skinned people with Indian traits. And Indians with some Caucasian traits.

This is quite common here because relationships between different ethnicities is a flagrant part of our History.

 

N7 Phantom is right to request a dark skinned woman with African traits. There has been NO romance so far with such a character in the franchise.

And Bioware is supposed to be inclusive...where are the Asians in the games, for instance? Why no Asian looking people? We have a horned people with grey skin, Caucasian elves, but no Africans or Asians? Is Thedas an European world only?

 

Stop harassing him.

[ModernAcademic]

There's even a dark skinned Vulcan with African traits in Star Trek.

 

 

When was the last time you saw a legitimate dark elf in DA? Are there any at all?

 

What is Bioware waiting for to include more African (and Asian, please) characters?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Stop harassing him.

How is explaining things harassing him? Harassment is calling Bioware racists for not having a black woman be a love interest.

[nightscrawl]

People seem to be confusing skin colour with ethnic traits and thinking they're all one and the same...

There are white skinned people with African traits in my country. And dark skinned people with Caucasian traits. Also dark skinned people with Indian traits. And Indians with some Caucasian traits.
This is quite common here because relationships between different ethnicities is a flagrant part of our History.

N7 Phantom is right to request a dark skinned woman with African traits. There has been NO romance so far with such a character in the franchise.
And Bioware is supposed to be inclusive...where are the Asians in the games, for instance? Why no Asian looking people? We have a horned people with grey skin, Caucasian elves, but no Africans or Asians? Is Thedas an European world only?

Stop harassing him.

You do realize that not all black Africans look the same, right? Now, there is something to be said for certain features being generally used as beauty standards, and I will agree that Vivienne typically does not fall into that in representative media at large. BUT, to continually claim that Bioware's SOLE reason for not having her be a love interest is because of racism is absurd.

[Xilizhra]

When was the last time you saw a legitimate dark elf in DA? Are there any at all?

Fenris is pretty dark. I think one or two elf NPCs in DAI are as well.
 

As for Asians... well, I would disagree that they aren't present; Halward Pavus is clearly Indian, and Dorian has plenty of traits of the same. If you're referring to East Asians, maybe they'll be the Executors.

[nightscrawl]

David Gaider already addressed this issue in the romance announcement thread over a year ago:
 

Vivienne, as a black woman, not being a LI:

I get that some people are disappointed. That's fair--she's pretty awesome, and could have made for an interesting romance if she had been concepted for one. Considering that one could also make an argument about a black woman being present in the game solely to be a fetishized sex object (as if no-one ever made this argument about Isabela?), or that this brings up awkward discussions about skin color vis à vis Josephine, I'm not sure this is a good road to go down. I would hope a character could make for great representation in the game, and do so by being a great character and not solely by whether or not they're available to be romanced, and that this will be evident once someone plays.

I do think you and others are missing the point in regards to Viv and race to an extent. Going by what we know of Viv, she is a strong independent black woman, who is ambitious, have goals that she is working hard to reach and she likes to look fabulous. A lot of these things fall into stereotypical traits. If you go into circles where black women discuss these traits/stereotype, what they say very often they would want to see in order to humanize these characters and tear apart the stereotype, is allowing her/them to be vulnerable(!), shown as worthy of love/desirable and showing/receiving affection. And these aspects are very often presented in a romantic context. This partly relates to that this stereotype is often default single, and particularly never shown to be open, affectionate or vulnerable with a romantic partner because of that.

Furthermore while you have the Jezebel as the hypersexual, another very widely spread stereotype is The Mammy who is basically treated as asexual. There is no in between here. "At best" you got the Sapphire who nags and nags and emasculates her husband and puts everybody down. That has now partly morphed into the "Angry Black Woman" and what all of these common stereotypes share, is an utter lack of positive romantic relationships, which also not so subtly suggests that black women in general are not good romantic partners or even potential ones.

So it does not boil down in "wanting to bone" her as some might think. It is simply that the path with most potential to humanize and flip the bird to those stereotypical traits lie in the romantic path. And it loses out even more because romance is done from the player's perspective. So you also lose out on many people (potentially) running into this stereotype, and then being an interactive part in going against it. Lastly it is not related to Josephine remotely who has a different personality and does not seemingly present those stereotypical traits.

While arguments can be made to boil down any character into a trope-- often to the point of purposefully blurring out any characteristics that don't match the trope in order to do so-- I do understand that tropes can potentially be harmful in aggregate, particularly to minorities.

My point was that the opposite argument about Vivienne being present only for fetishization purposes could be made, were she a LI, so suggesting that her not being a LI is also somehow problematic very much presents a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation... aside from rather pointedly ignoring Josephine, in a sense of "but I wanted Vivienne more" kind of way. Which, as I said, I get. Vivienne is awesome. But let's not pretend that people wouldn't make arguments to one end or another regardless.

Insofar as to whether Vivienne specifically matches any tropes, "Strong Independent Black Woman" or otherwise, I suggest playing the game and seeing for yourself before assuming that what you fear might be is what she actually is, or that a romance would be required to "humanize" her as a result.

-----

At least the poster David quoted had the decency to say, "So it does not boil down in 'wanting to bone' her as some might think," which is more than I can say for some in this thread.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 15 janvier 2016 - 07:45 .

[ModernAcademic]

You do realize that not all black Africans look the same, right? Now, there is something to be said for certain features being generally used as beauty standards, and I will agree that Vivienne typically does not fall into that in representative media at large. BUT, to continually claim that Bioware's SOLE reason for not having her be a love interest is because of racism is absurd.

 

With all due respect, I believe you shold be making that remark to the people who questioned him about Isabela not being black.

She's not. She's a Caucasian type of woman with dark skin. Why does she even have straight hair?

 

 

And I'm not calling Bioware racist - I have no idea whether OP made such statement or not, since I'm not about to read the entire thread - , but I do agree he has the right to question why there are NO African characters in the game aside from Vivienne.

 

Bioware is known to have an inclusive policy. It goes to great lengths to create afantasy world where women are not discriminated. So where is the inclusive policy regarding different ethnic groups? 

 

Or as the OP put it, why is the only dark skinned woman with African traits in the game non-romanceable? 

 

And let's not forget about the Arabs. Though if you consider the Qunari symbol and religious philosophy a fictional representation of Islam - Qunari, Quran, a holy book written by a prophet, usage of squares as their symbol, Sten talking about the smells of Seheron, the collective thinking, placing the group above the self, a very Eastern concept -, then we won't see them at all. They've become oxmen in the game. 

 

Anyway, I'm not up for a discussion where the word racism is being tossed around. Perspective can be lost quite easily when that happens and things can take a nasty turn. This is a lost opportunity to have a serious debate about an aspect which has been overlooked in DA and discuss in what better way the fundamental characteristics of many ethnical groups could be accurately portrayed and figure in the franchise.

[Xilizhra]

With all due respect, I believe you shold be making that remark to the people who questioned him about Isabela not being black.

She's not. She's a Caucasian type of woman with dark skin. Why does she even have straight hair?

Um, it's extremely possible for someone to have both dark skin and straight hair.

 

 

And let's not forget about the Arabs. Though if you consider the Qunari symbol and religious philosophy a fictional representation of Islam - Qunari, Quran, a holy book written by a prophet, usage of squares as their symbol, Sten talking about the smells of Seheron, the collective thinking, placing the group above the self, a very Eastern concept -, then we won't see them at all. They've become oxmen in the game.

Er, that'd be Isabela.

[nightscrawl]

And I'm not calling Bioware racist - I have no idea whether OP made such statement or not, since I'm not about to read the entire thread - , but I do agree he has the right to question why there are NO African characters in the game aside from Vivienne.
 
...

Anyway, I'm not up for a discussion where the word racism is being tossed around.

Then perhaps you should have read the posts of the person you defended before defending them. I will admit that N7Phantom, the person you defended, has never actually used the word "racism" or "racist" in their posts. BUT they did repeatedly claim that the SOLE reason that Bioware chose to not have Vivienne be an LI is because she is "a black woman," which, let's be honest, is calling Bioware racist without using the word.

 

At any rate, the whole tone of this discussion is disgusting, using terms like "chocolate love" and so forth. David Gaider was absolutely right in using the word "fetishization." N7Phantom has made it clear time and again that they want to fk a black woman and is upset that Bioware intentionally and maliciously deprived them of that chance -- "they don't want us to make love to a REAL black woman."

 

I am ALL for discussion of representation and inclusion in these games. I don't care at all about realism or whathaveyou when it comes to that sort of thing. But that is not the primary argument being made.

 

 

[edit]

This is my final post in this thread.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 15 janvier 2016 - 08:59 .

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Well I'm gonna eat some good ol' popcorn and enjoying the love you guys have been giving me, (sobbing) it's all I've ever wanted.......

[YourFunnyUncle]

If you can't be bothered to read the thread, I'll summarise the content of N7Phantom's arguments for you then, ModernAcademic:

 

"Why can't I have sex with Vivienne? I want to get some of that that hot booty. The only reason we can't romance Vivienne is that BioWare don't want us to make love to a hot African lady. Oh and by the way Isabela is a disgusting filthy Jezebel character."

 

The clear implication of all his posts is that BioWare didn't let us romance Vivienne for purely racist reasons.

 

If he'd been making any kind of intelligent coherent argument about the lack of non-European-looking people in the game world, then that would've been different. There are such arguments to be made as you point out. Sadly, we've not seen them in this thread since he necroed it..

[Catilina]

Well I'm gonna eat some good ol' popcorn and enjoying the love you guys have been giving me, (sobbing) it's all I've ever wanted.......

Look at: You won already.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

People seem to be confusing skin colour with ethnic traits and thinking they're all one and the same...
 
There are white skinned people with African traits in my country. And dark skinned people with Caucasian traits. Also dark skinned people with Indian traits. And Indians with some Caucasian traits.
This is quite common here because relationships between different ethnicities is a flagrant part of our History.
 
N7 Phantom is right to request a dark skinned woman with African traits. There has been NO romance so far with such a character in the franchise.
And Bioware is supposed to be inclusive...where are the Asians in the games, for instance? Why no Asian looking people? We have a horned people with grey skin, Caucasian elves, but no Africans or Asians? Is Thedas an European world only?
 
Stop harassing him.

It is harassment. All because of a dissenting opinion. By defending me you've opened yourself to being harassed. I can tell you like my dad told me. Stand in your truth, even if you stand alone.

[Catilina]

It is harassment. All because of a dissenting opinion. By defending me you've opened yourself to being harassed. I can tell you like my dad told me. Stand in your truth, even if you stand alone.

BUT: who wants to hurt you? I ask it enquiring.