1942 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I think a few are confusing the over-idealization of buff men with the sexualization that happens to mainly female characters, although the former is almost as bad.  Sexualizing would be more of turning someone into purely an object of desire, or merely a plot point.   I don't think I need to say anything more, as I'm pretty sure everyone is with it familiar by now. That's terrible, awful, disgusting and happens to female characters far too often.  Plus, I think some of the straight/bi men, the supposed audience for that, are very sick of it.

 

The over-idealization of a particular type of guy, in this case much like the pics above me, tend to push those ideals to the point of being unhealthy.  It leaves little room for any other body types or such to be shown.   Tragically, as a result of this, eating disorders, especially anorexia, is one the rise among teen boys. This idealization falls in line with the sexualization oftentimes; you have the over-sexualizated woman with the over-idealizated man. 

 

That kind of sexist BS towards both men and women hurts everyone.  It makes me a little sad.  

 

And I'll quit derailing Kallen's thread.  Sorry, went off on a bit of a tangent.

Isn't there something nicknamed "manorexia" that manifests as working out way too much?

[Grieving Natashina]

Isn't there something nicknamed "manorexia" that manifests as working out way too much?

Never heard of the word itself, but I've heard of the concept.  

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

Isn't there something nicknamed "manorexia" that manifests as working out way too much?

According to Urban Dictionary, it is:

1) Male form of Anorexia Nervosa where the person becomes psychologically obsessed with any visible quantity of fat tissue and diets, drinks, or uses drugs compulsively in an intentional attempt to get thinner. 
2) Psychological disorder in males denoted by obsession with their body image, usually musculature. Manorexics often resort to compulsive weight lifting, use of dietary supplements, or steroids in an attempt to build muscle mass to look "perfect". The end result of uncontrolled Manorexia is grotesquely large muscles.

[eyezonlyii]

Isn't there something nicknamed "manorexia" that manifests as working out way too much?

Yea that's a thing. Just as "tanorexia" was at one point. 

[Grieving Natashina]

 

 

According to Urban Dictionary, it is:

1) Male form of Anorexia Nervosa where the person becomes psychologically obsessed with any visible quantity of fat tissue and diets, drinks, or uses drugs compulsively in an intentional attempt to get thinner. 
2) Psychological disorder in males denoted by obsession with their body image, usually musculature. Manorexics often resort to compulsive weight lifting, use of dietary supplements, or steroids in an attempt to build muscle mass to look "perfect". The end result of uncontrolled Manorexia is grotesquely large muscles.

 

Huh, learn something new every day.  It certainly makes sense like that.

[berrieh]

The OP doesn't say a single thing about being able to romance them, though I already know that this is what they want. And considering the fact that demi-sexuality has next to no importance in romancing someone in a BioWare game, where smex is pretty much the end of it in most cases, the results would be the same. 

 

The journey might be written differently - I think that is the goal. I think it's a pretty poorly written romance if we only focus on that last stupid smex scene. Wanting the writing to continuously improve and evolve for romances seems like only a good thing to me (and I'm already well-represented so it's not about representation for me at all). 

 

Sorry, but as I stated in my original post, I think that is highly subject to interpretation.

An expression of affection =/= an expression of sexual interest. Neither does interest in forming a deep friendship or emotional bond. I would also suggest that, as a bard, Leliana may have the presence of mind and skills needed to manipulate someone into not friend-zoning her even if she herself is not quite ready to go there.

I can't speak for the relationship arc with a male warden, as I have not experienced it. I can speak only for the particular relationship path(s) I have experienced. Someone mentioned the 3-or-4some with Isabela, but it looked to me like Leliana went along with it so as not to be excluded from the warden's sexcapades, not necessarily because she was sexually intrigued by the prospect. She certainly displayed a distinct jealous / possessive streak when it came to her relationship with the warden.

 

I've only seen female Warden/Leliana romance as well, for what it's worth. But I don't think "not quite ready to go there" is the same as demisexual. To be demisexual, you would have to not even consider "there" until you had a substantial bond. Like not even realize "there" existed. I think Leliana expresses attraction (not the desire to have sex with you, as she is not ready to) quite early in the game. You can initiate those conversations almost immediately at camp after she joins you. As to a jealous streak, I find that unrelated. However, if it's merely to the point about the 3-some, perhaps - never did that scene and very unsure about it. 

 

Ultimately, what we think we observe in the behaviors of others is very much subject to interpretation. There are a couple of influential factors that I think may be worth mentioning:

1) I think women in general have a much broader spectrum with expressions of platonic affection than men generally do.

2) People who are on the "sexual" end of the spectrum are probably a lot more likely to read things as sexual triggers than those who are closer to the demisexual / asexual end of the spectrum.

And no, I'm not trying to suggest that Leliana was intentionally written to be demisexual - only that she can be interpreted as such. I don't know whether authorial intent (WOG) should carry that much weight.

"All worthy work is open to interpretations the author did not intend. Art isn't your pet — it's your kid. It grows up and talks back to you." - Joss Whedon

 

I think the interpretation seems flimsy if it's based upon the fact that she waits to have sex with you (which seems to be the basis). Is it based upon anything else in her behavior? 

 

So now BioWare not only needs to consider making different sexual orientations but also cover the spectrum of peoples' libidos? Where does it end? How about an otherkin NPC and you have to romance all of their headmates as well?

 

Why not look for a dating simulation game?

 

I don't think the OP said they needed to. It's a request. The OP never suggested outrage at its lack of inclusion or anything. I saw a thread asking for mabari puppies the other day, and no one was huffy about it (I want some mabari puppies too, btw). 

 

 

People have a tendency to make things more complicated than they are. I'm a fan of the acronym KISS.

 

Lets say there is a guy who is only physically and romantically attracted to red-haired women. While his extreme preference for gingers might place him a bit outside the norm, it wouldn't be inaccurate to say he's heterosexual. Would we really need to create a separate subgroup of heterosexual to describe his preferences?

 

So that's sort of my issue with demisexual. Depending on how it is described it either sounds like someone who is asexual, or someone who is straight, bi, or gay who doesn't take sex lightly.

 

Is it a problem to examine the attraction spectrum? I mean, I'm a straight, sexual woman (I believe that's the term for what we might consider "normal") who has no issues identifying as my own gender, etc, etc. I'm basic. I'm generally represented, except where women are left out. I don't even understand all the new Tumblr labels sometimes, though I do try and listen and grasp it (like here). But who am I to say to someone their labels or sense of self doesn't matter? If people who are only attracted to red-haired women want to label it and see it represented, what's the harm? I don't really think that's a spectrum we can see exists as clearly as this one (attraction) or sexual orientation. But it wouldn't hurt anyone. 

 

It seems more simple to me to allow people express these aspects of themselves than to be frustrated by it, to me. 

 

Demisexual, as Kallen describes it, fits in with how asexuality is described by asexuals.

 

For the record, most people I've seen who describe themselves as asexual don't seem to experience the secondary attraction listed in the OP. Or they express that they don't (what they feel, I can only take their word for). That doesn't mean they don't have sex. They might to fit in or make a relationship work because they crave companionship or even release stress or whatever. But they don't experience the secondary attraction. 

 

A demisexual in a relationship would appear and experience attraction almost exactly as a "regular sexual" in a relationship (though obviously any issues, like attraction to others outside the relationship, wouldn't exist - but that is true of many relationships NOT involving demisexuality too). 

 

An asexual in a relationship might fake it but would never experience sexual attraction. They might experience love, companionship, and other related romantic emotions, but not sexual attraction. 

 

At least I think that seems to be the difference. The breakdown of primary and secondary sexuality in the OP really made sense to me. 

[Br3admax]

1) No one is suggesting it should be earth shattering. I'm not demisexual, the inclusion of a character who is would mean pretty much nothing to me on a personal level but to Op and perhaps others it would matter.

Then make it up, because honestly, you would never know unless told otherwise. If what you're searching for is a writer saying you're okay and that this person is like you, you're defeating the purpose. You don't want representation; you want gratification. 

 

 

 

2) The fact this thread exists shows that at least one person does care about it. As for it not being any ones business, I don't think that really applies when talking about a hypothetical fictional character. You stating that it isn't representation doesn't change the fact that is what Kallen is asking for.

While the fact that one person wants something matters very little to a video game company, and yes I'm sure there are more, that actually has nothing to do with what I said. The point is: at the point where you would actually know someone is "demi-sexual," you've already invaded their habits, their feelings, and their sexuality. Even then, in a world where a character has only talked about their sexuality in the absolute most basic, and applicable, sense, it's a waste of time and highly offensive, honestly, to even get the chance to find out. In a romance, why someone is attracted to you is literally the least important thing. The fact that they are should be enough.

 

3) I was not saying that homosexuality and being demisexual were the same, I was pointing out the fact that the end result not looking terribly different doesn't change a desire for representation of type of character.

That's great. What I said is that the result is obviously not the same. You don't need to put someone under a microscope to know they're homosexual, and you don't need to question them extensively to know their attractions. 

 

You're right it would be unnoticed by most - I'm not sure what the problem with that is. OP didn't say 'Please make sure that everyone playing the game can't possible fail to notice that this character is demisexual'.

It will go unnoticed by anyone period. It's a wasted resource. Actually, even that is claiming to much, because the difference between a "demisexual" and anyone else to the outside person in the romance, and that is what we are, shouldn't matter and in game won't. 

As for resources, I don't understand what extra resources you think they would need to employ? All OP is asking is that when they come to thinking up characters for the next game they consider having one that is demisexual.

Because the recorded dialogue to say, "Hey I'm demisexual and I don't find you attractive right now, but I might later," could actually go towards much more personal dialogue that matters in the long term. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

In a romance, why someone is attracted to you is literally the least important thing. The fact that they are should be enough.

I disagree. There are many more things that are of lesser importance in a relationship. In fact, I'd argue why someone is attracted to you is one of the more important things that need addressing. Are they in love with you for you? Are they attracted to your wealth, influence, etc rather than you for you? That is a very important distinction. 

[eyezonlyii]

To add some levity to this discussion (a slight derail I'm sorry), I just wanted to say I learned a new sexuality just now.

 

I am also autosexual. 

 

Carry on

[Grieving Natashina]

I disagree. There are many more things that are of lesser importance in a relationship. In fact, I'd argue why someone is attracted to you is one of the more important things that need addressing. Are they in love with you for you? Are they attracted to your wealth, influence, etc rather than you for you? That is a very important distinction. 

Happily married lady here and I can attest to this.  Two of my closest friends were very attracted to each other and dated for years.  Crazy about each other in fact.  However, a couple of years after they finally got married, they realized that they weren't attracted to each other as people.  It had been mostly a physical thing, and when it died, so did the marriage.  I know that seems like an odd story to share in a thread about demisexuality, but I wanted to point out that why you're attracted to someone is actually far more important that just being attracted to them.  

 

For my part, I find my husband's kindness, mind and humor the attraction, as well as the physical and emotional.  I've gone through a period in my marriage with him where, due to him developing a protracted illness, we physically could not have sex.   It was our love, friendship (such a key part of marriage that most forget in the rush of initial love)  and attraction to each other as people, more than any base romantic or sexual attraction, that got us through that.

 

If our attraction had been based on such surface things as just sex, or money, or security, or influence, it would have not been enough to get us through that time period and out the other side still walking side-by-side. 

[Lady Nuggins]

 

Then make it up, because honestly, you would never know unless told otherwise. If what you're searching for is a writer saying you're okay and that this person is like you, you're defeating the purpose. You don't want representation; you want gratification. 

 

If you never see characters who are like you, and never have them acknowledged as being like you even when you do find them, I imagine it would be extremely validating to have a writer say "yes, this character is X" even if it's not explicit in the game.  I know a lot of people were deeply touched to learn that IB is pansexual, even though it is unlikely that anything in-game will distinguish him from the bisexual characters.  It's just acknowledgement that people like them exist, and that someone was thoughtful enough to write about someone like that.

 

It will go unnoticed by anyone period. It's a wasted resource. Actually, even that is claiming to much, because the difference between a "demisexual" and anyone else to the outside person in the romance, and that is what we are, shouldn't matter and in game won't. 

 

Because the recorded dialogue to say, "Hey I'm demisexual and I don't find you attractive right now, but I might later," could actually go towards much more personal dialogue that matters in the long term. 

 

As I understand it, other than WoG and a couple lines of banter, most people here agree that Merrill could be read as demisexual.  No special lines about her demisexuality (which doesn't exist for any other orientation in the game) would be necessary for her to be a canon demisexual character.  If Gaider came into this thread tomorrow and said that she is demisexual-biromantic, most people would accept that as the canon truth.  In that case, a character who is canonically demisexual would not necessarily require any more resources than any other character romance.  Nor would it have to be limited to only demisexual players, as tons of people who are not demisexual enjoy the Merrill romance.  

 

And yes, it may go unnoticed by the vast majority of players, just as I doubt anybody will know, outside of WoG, that Iron Bull is pansexual rather than bisexual.  But that's actually an argument in favour of considering a character like that, because it literally costs nothing.  It wouldn't take away options from other orientations, it wouldn't require any special cinematics.  

[Xilizhra]

If you never see characters who are like you, and never have them acknowledged as being like you even when you do find them, I imagine it would be extremely validating to have a writer say "yes, this character is X" even if it's not explicit in the game.  I know a lot of people were deeply touched to learn that IB is pansexual, even though it is unlikely that anything in-game will distinguish him from the bisexual characters.  It's just acknowledgement that people like them exist, and that someone was thoughtful enough to write about someone like that.

 

 

As I understand it, other than WoG and a couple lines of banter, most people here agree that Merrill could be read as demisexual.  No special lines about her demisexuality (which doesn't exist for any other orientation in the game) would be necessary for her to be a canon demisexual character.  If Gaider came into this thread tomorrow and said that she is demisexual-biromantic, most people would accept that as the canon truth.  In that case, a character who is canonically demisexual would not necessarily require any more resources than any other character romance.  Nor would it have to be limited to only demisexual players, as tons of people who are not demisexual enjoy the Merrill romance.  

 

And yes, it may go unnoticed by the vast majority of players, just as I doubt anybody will know, outside of WoG, that Iron Bull is pansexual rather than bisexual.  But that's actually an argument in favour of considering a character like that, because it literally costs nothing.  It wouldn't take away options from other orientations, it wouldn't require any special cinematics.  

Er, aren't those lines of banter sort of destructive to the concept of demisexuality? She's attracted to both the qunari and Hawke even while they're not in a relationship.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Er, aren't those lines of banter sort of destructive to the concept of demisexuality? She's attracted to both the qunari and Hawke even while they're not in a relationship.

She found the Qunari as aesthetically pleasing. That's not necessarily the same as being sexually attracted to someone. If I find a man or woman as physically attractive, that does not mean I am sexually attracted to them. As for Hawke, what dialogue are you referring to? 

[Xilizhra]

She found the Qunari as aesthetically pleasing. That's not necessarily the same as being sexually attracted to someone. If I find a man or woman as physically attractive, that does not mean I am sexually attracted to them. As for Hawke, the game has been known to have dialogue glitches. 

"The Champion of Kirkwall, going into battle naked! Why can't I ever have that dream?"

 

That seems fairly unambiguous.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

"The Champion of Kirkwall, going into battle naked! Why can't I ever have that dream?"

 

That seems fairly unambiguous.

When does she say that? 

[CrimsonN7]

To add some levity to this discussion (a slight derail I'm sorry), I just wanted to say I learned a new sexuality just now.

 

I am also autosexual. 

 

Carry on

 

So I take you're... firing on all cylinders then, hur hur hur

 

*I'll just show myself out*

[Xilizhra]

When does she say that? 

Right before the final battle, when you take the humorous dialogue option. Only tested with mages, but it's not romance-dependent.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Right before the final battle, when you take the humorous dialogue option. Only tested with mages, but it's not romance-dependent.

By that point there is a strong emotional bond, and thus sexual attraction could have occurred for her regardless of if the romance was started.

[Xilizhra]

By that point there is a strong emotional bond, and thus sexual attraction could have occurred for her regardless of if the romance was started.

Unless you didn't level her friendship or rivalry much either way, and just didn't have her turn on you because you sided with the mages.

[olgaroni]

She found the Qunari as aesthetically pleasing. That's not necessarily the same as being sexually attracted to someone. If I find a man or woman as physically attractive, that does not mean I am sexually attracted to them.

That is just your way of interpreting it though. Interpreting this line as Merrill stating that she is liking a horde of muscular, shirtless men in a sexual way is as valid as your theory. 

There is also the dialogue about the dirty spells we have already discussed in another thread and which happens no matter if Merrill is romanced or not.

Merrill is very interested in sex, which contradicts the first of your points in recognising a demisexual.

 

Tvtropes may not be an official source, but it lists the "covert pervert" trope for Merrill.

 

So I would say Merrill orientation is not clearly demisexual even if Gaider's clarification would not exist.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That is just your way of interpreting it though. Interpreting this line as Merrill stating that she is liking a horde of muscular, shirtless men in a sexual way is as valid as your theory. 

There is also the dialogue about the dirty spells we have already discussed in another thread and which happens no matter if Merrill is romanced or not.

Merrill is very interested in sex, which contradicts the first of your points in recognising a demisexual.

I know it is just my interpretation. Hence me saying it doesn't necessarily mean she is sexually attracted to them. It also doesn't necessarily mean she isn't sexually attracted to them, which due to WoG claiming her as bisexual is now the more likely option. 

 

No, it doesn't. Demisexuals have primary sexual desires, aka they like sex because it gives them personal pleasure. There are demisexuals who for example masturbate because of this. For all we know, the "dirty spells" could have been for her. 

[Pasquale1234]

I've only seen female Warden/Leliana romance as well, for what it's worth. But I don't think "not quite ready to go there" is the same as demisexual. To be demisexual, you would have to not even consider "there" until you had a substantial bond. Like not even realize "there" existed. I think Leliana expresses attraction (not the desire to have sex with you, as she is not ready to) quite early in the game. You can initiate those conversations almost immediately at camp after she joins you.

I'm not convinced that what she is expressing is sexual attraction - thus the discussions I've put forth about how people interpret signs of affection versus signs of sexual attraction.

A demisexual who knows herself and has been in love before may very well recognize the warden as someone with whom she could fall in love and find sexually attractive in time. If she is open to having that happen, then she might want to keep that door open instead of slamming it shut and being permanently friend-zoned.
 

As to a jealous streak, I find that unrelated. However, if it's merely to the point about the 3-some, perhaps - never did that scene and very unsure about it.

I offered her jealousy / possessiveness as a reason why she might accompany her beloved warden in a 3-4some.
 

I think the interpretation seems flimsy if it's based upon the fact that she waits to have sex with you (which seems to be the basis). Is it based upon anything else in her behavior?

I guess I can ask the same sort of question of those who insist that she comes on to the warden and expresses sexual attraction early on. What is it about her behavior that so undeniably expresses sexual attraction?

[olgaroni]

I know it is just my interpretation. Hence me saying it doesn't necessarily mean she is sexually attracted to them. It also doesn't necessarily mean she isn't sexually attracted to them, which due to WoG claiming her as bisexual is now the more likely option. 

 

No, it doesn't. Demisexuals have primary sexual desires, aka they like sex because it gives them personal pleasure. There are demisexuals who for example masturbate because of this. For all we know, the "dirty spells" could have been for her. 

The "dirty spell" dialogue is a callback to an earlier conversation between Anders and Isabella about some "electricity spell" Anders used in the Pearl for sex. Merrill says she wants to make things more exciting. (Whatever that means.)

 

I'm really not against a demisexual character in the future, but given the dialogue in the game and Gaider's comment I don't think Merrill is one.

I also think it would be very challenging to write this the right way, because most people are so unfamiliar with this way of feeling and the writers would need a lot of explanation.

[HuldraDancer]

She found the Qunari as aesthetically pleasing. That's not necessarily the same as being sexually attracted to someone. If I find a man or woman as physically attractive, that does not mean I am sexually attracted to them. As for Hawke, what dialogue are you referring to? 

 

Sorry for barging in when the question was answered and this was not addressed to me but I skimmed and didn't see anyone mention it so I'll throw in that there is a party banter she has with Aveline where she expresses a fondness for Hawke though according to the wiki you only get this on her friendship path

 

 

• Merrill: That's good. Is it because you're fond of Hawke? I kind of am.
• Aveline: How very nice for you. Keep it to yourself.
• Merrill: I'd rather keep it with her/him.

 

sorry for the odd font copied and paste it right from the wiki.