Which in turn makes such requests pointless.
Why would it be pointless? Nobody has been asking for the character to come out and say they are Demisexual. Considering the term likely doesn't even exist, it would be fairly jarring if they did. But just because they don't state it doesn't mean they can't BE Demisexual. I also don't understand why people think this would be difficult to convey, considering they've essentially done it already in Merrill.
To be fair, I actually don't think Kallen is even asking for a Demisexual romance. Just a Demeisexual character within the game. As to the question of how one could effectively convey Demisexuality, just play DA2 and romance Merrall. If it wasn't for Word of God saying she was bisexual, it would be very easy to assume that she was Demisexual.
If all the OP is wanting is for the inclusion of demisexual characters, and yet this has already allegedly been done in a previous BioWare game, then why does this thread exist? It seems to me the OP just wants an affirmation that such a sexuality is being recognized by the writers. It seems more practical and efficient to just use headcanon as writers rarely flesh out these characters entirely.
If all the OP is wanting is for the inclusion of demisexual characters, and yet this has already allegedly been done in a previous BioWare game, then why does this thread exist? It seems to me the OP just wants an affirmation that such a sexuality is being recognized by the writers. It seems more practical and efficient to just use headcanon as writers rarely flesh out these characters entirely.
Kallen has stated a number of times (at least in other threads, if not in this one, which makes it understandable that you might not know) that they were very happy with Merrill until earlier this year, when it was confirmed that she was bisexual and not Demisexual. If Gaider had never said that Merrill was Bisexual rather than Demisexual, this thread probably wouldn't exist. Although I'm really glad it does, because just because something has been done one time doesn't mean it should never happen again.
Demisexual eh.... Huh. Learn something new every day. So it's basically a sexuality that branches off of bisexuality? It seems to me the only real difference is that one doesn't have any sexual feelings until deeply bonding on an emotional level or something. Is that right?
Kallen has stated a number of times (at least in other threads, if not in this one, which makes it understandable that you might not know) that they were very happy with Merrill until earlier this year, when it was confirmed that she was bisexual and not Demisexual. If Gaider had never said that Merrill was Bisexual rather than Demisexual, this thread probably wouldn't exist. Although I'm really glad it does, because just because something has been done one time doesn't mean it should never happen again.
Who cares what Gaider says? You shouldn't let his views or his "canon" override your own. Certainly there was an uproar when he brought Leliana back to life, for those who killed her, and he more or less said along the lines of "deal with it." I don't remember Merrill, or any of the companions in DAII (maybe Isabela) ever explicitly stating they were bisexual. As far as I'm concerned, their dialogue is more indicative of who they are sexually than the comments of the DA lead writer after the fact. Again, this idea of demisexuality could actually be applied to a few of the companions over the years for BioWare (Tali would probably be a potential candidate), so I really don't see this as an issue if you incorporate your own headcanon.
Demisexual eh.... Huh. Learn something new every day. So it's basically a sexuality that branches off of bisexuality? It seems to me the only real difference is that one doesn't have any sexual feelings until deeply bonding on an emotional level or something. Is that right?
I think you have the gist. At least as far as I understand it. The only thing is that I think any sexual attraction orientation (hetero, homosexual, and bi) can be demisexual. It's not just bisexuals.
Who cares what Gaider says? You shouldn't let his views or his "canon" override your own. Certainly there was an uproar when he brought Leliana back to life, for those who killed her, and he more or less said along the lines of "deal with it." I don't remember Merrill, or any of the companions in DAII (maybe Isabela) ever explicitly stating they were bisexual. As far as I'm concerned, their dialogue is more indicative of who they are sexually than the comments of the DA lead writer after the fact. Again, this idea of demisexuality could actually be applied to a few of the companions over the years for BioWare (Tali would probably be a potential candidate), so I really don't see this as an issue if you incorporate your own headcanon.
That's fine if it works for you. But there are some people who have never, or very rarely, felt that they have been represented in any video game. Finding out that a character that you previously thought represented you doesn't, based on the word of the guy in charge of the writing team, can be pretty damaging.
I've combed the thread.
I definitely don't know where we are.
That's fine if it works for you. But there are some people who have never, or very rarely, felt that they have been represented in any video game. Finding out that a character that you previously thought represented you doesn't, based on the word of the guy in charge of the writing team, can be pretty damaging.
No video game represents anyone. If they represented the average person and his/her mundane lifestyle, that would be a rather boring and uninteresting game. Video games are entertainment, just like sports and film. If they aren't exciting, enjoyable, and engage the person, they aren't very effective in doing what they were made to do.
I'm not sure how anyone could assume Merrill was demisexual if BioWare never stated that to start. Honestly, I believe BioWare would just be better off not dealing with romance at all, as clearly nothing they do can ever please everybody. They've done far more than any other developer, and yet they still receive criticism for being more inclusive? That seems unfair and unreasonable to me.
Again, I fail to understand why what Gaider says has any meaning at all, as his words aren't re-writing these characters or their dialogue. Judge the characters on what they say, rather than what some third party claims they are. Sexuality is a sensitive subject, and a complicated one. The world is far behind in trying to understand it, especially if you don't identify as heterosexual or homosexual.
While I believe BioWare's efforts are admirable in trying to appeal to as many different groups as they can, I also believe it's a futile endeavor. You can't please everyone, and ultimately this issue of romance seems to cause more drama than provide joy for players (at least on these forums, which are admittedly a small extreme of the community).
I understand why people care, and it's certainly important. But I also believe people need to realize and understand that BioWare is a video game developer. They are not a political action group. They are not a government or a non-profit organization. They will try to be as open and welcoming as they can, but it's honestly not their job or their purpose. They are here to make great stories with characters we care about. Sexuality is just an element that has become a major part of BioWare in more recent years due to their willingness to offer more options than any other competitor.
If they are able to continue to expand upon that and promote more disenfranchised groups, kudos to BioWare. If they are not for whatever reason, they still have done far more than any other developer. How many games do you know of where there are characters who identify as straight, gay, bi, and have their own identities and motivations? Most games just assume everybody is heterosexual by default, so I think people really need to appreciate the work BioWare has done and continues to do.
I have hard time understanding why Merrill being bisexual means she is not demisexual. Demisexuality is about sexual attraction happening due to specific reasons (emotional bond). It is not about gender
I think that Bioware have unintentionally written a demisexual character
This is a very valid point. I also still refuse to buy Gaider's claim that every companion in DA2 is "bisexual" as they were clearly made available to both genders so the player could decide who they would romance without being restricted. His efforts were nothing more than backpedaling due to upsetting the bisexual fan base who did not appreciate how bisexuality was handled in DA2. Again, as BioWare continues to make diverse and interesting characters, it really should be up to player opinion and the imagination to decide what these companions are. It is your story after all. Headcanon or not.
Eh, no, I meant that Merrill is both demisexual and bisexualThis is a very valid point. I also still refuse to buy Gaider's claim that every companion in DA2 is "bisexual" as they were clearly made available to both genders so the player could decide who they would romance without being restricted. His efforts were nothing more than backpedaling due to upsetting the bisexual fan base who did not appreciate how bisexuality was handled in DA2. Again, as BioWare continues to make diverse and interesting characters, it really should be up to player opinion and the imagination to decide what these companions are. It is your story after all. Headcanon or not.
I have learned more about different sexualities here in BSN than in real life.
I'm not an expert on the subject, but I'm fairly sure that having a passing acquaintance with someone isn't enough for a Demisexual.
True, but it is enough for a demisexual to know if they want to get to know the person better (not in a sexual manner at that time...more friendship/platonic).
The female mage warden, returns to the tower in Broken Circle to find that Cullen has been tortured by Desire Demons but has resisted for days/weeks when his other Templar companions gave in. He also states that they used visions of her to tempt him. So either he has unusually strong willpower or...he is demisexual, he was attracted to the warden but not in a sexual manner which saved him from the worst of the lust/desire temptations.
Demisexual eh.... Huh. Learn something new every day. So it's basically a sexuality that branches off of bisexuality? It seems to me the only real difference is that one doesn't have any sexual feelings until deeply bonding on an emotional level or something. Is that right?
It is more commonly seen as branching from asexuality, whilst some are attracted to both sexes, others are not. However, yes, sexual attraction is secondary and emotional investment comes first.
The worst problem is being attracted to someone, wishing to get to know them better...and getting friendzoned. Story of my life.
I must say that before I came across the expression demisexual, I just thought that I fell into the 'old romantic' subset...but I'm getting on in years.
Honestly, I believe BioWare would just be better off not dealing with romance at all, as clearly nothing they do can ever please everybody. They've done far more than any other developer, and yet they still receive criticism for being more inclusive? That seems unfair and unreasonable to me.
I think it's fair to say that we're not going to agree on this, and I don't really see the discussion moving past where we currently are, however I would like to address this point. Nobody is criticising Bioware for not having Demisexuality in their games. Everyone around here sees how well Bioware is doing with their diversity, and this thread is simply saying that there is still more that can be done. If I'm speaking out of line for any of the treat regulars here, please correct me, but I'm fairly sure we all very much appreciate and respect the things that Bioware is doing. But that doesn't mean that we can't also ask for more. Nobody is saying that every sexuality needs to be represented in every game, but everyone would like to see their sexuality represented sometimes, and Bioware is the only company I can see being asked to provide that, simply because of how amazing of a job they are doing already. That the requests are this specific is a fantastic indicator of how far ahead of the curve Bioware is when it comes to this kind of thing, considering some companies are still being asked to just include women in any kind of meaningful way.
Eh, no, I meant that Merrill is both demisexual and bisexual
She is demibisexual
All DA2 LIs but Sebastian are bisexual
I understand what you are saying. I recognize that one can be demisexual and bisexual. My point about Gaider was due to the fact that he as criticized heavily for how bisexuals were handled in DA2 due to the player-sexual nature of characters. My point was that besides Isabela and Anders, none of the characters gave the indication that they were bisexual by their dialogue. That's why in DAI every character will have a strict and defined sexuality.
I think it's fair to say that we're not going to agree on this, and I don't really see the discussion moving past where we currently are, however I would like to address this point. Nobody is criticising Bioware for not having Demisexuality in their games. Everyone around here sees how well Bioware is doing with their diversity, and this thread is simply saying that there is still more that can be done. If I'm speaking out of line for any of the treat regulars here, please correct me, but I'm fairly sure we all very much appreciate and respect the things that Bioware is doing. But that doesn't mean that we can't also ask for more. Nobody is saying that every sexuality needs to be represented in every game, but everyone would like to see their sexuality represented sometimes, and Bioware is the only company I can see being asked to provide that, simply because of how amazing of a job they are doing already. That the requests are this specific is a fantastic indicator of how far ahead of the curve Bioware is when it comes to this kind of thing, considering some companies are still being asked to just include women in any kind of meaningful way.
Fair enough. I still don't understand why the words of a writer are more important than the dialogue and what the characters actually say and who they are, but to each his/her own. We'll see what BioWare does. They have only indicated they may do an asexual character in the foreseeable future. They haven't suggested any other kind of sexuality. As I stated before though, some of these characters in past BioWare games could be argued to have other sexualities just based on how they act.
I understand what you are saying. I recognize that one can be demisexual and bisexual. My point about Gaider was due to the fact that he as criticized heavily for how bisexuals were handled in DA2 due to the player-sexual nature of characters. My point was that besides Isabela and Anders, none of the characters gave the indication that they were bisexual by their dialogue. That's why in DAI every character will have a strict and defined sexuality.
I'm pretty sure that even if Gaider didn't say anything Merrill would still be bisexual (because she is capable of being sexually attracted to both sexes) and every DA2 LI (except Sebastian, of course). It's not like they have to create a whole dialogue just to explain to the PC that the character find this or that sex attractive, or both. Especially since in Thedas these terms do no exist (lesbians are called poetesses or sth like that)
The writers decide what characters are and what characters aren't. Not the PC, not the player. We just interpret them
I'm pretty sure that even if Gaider didn't say anything Merrill would still be bisexual (because she is capable of being sexually attracted to both sexes) and every DA2 LI (except Sebastian, of course). It's not like they have to create a whole dialogue just to explain to the PC that the character find this or that sex attractive, or both. Especially since in Thedas these terms do no exist (lesbians are called poetesses or sth like that)
The writers decide what characters are and what characters aren't. Not the PC, not the player. We just interpret them
I don't believe you understand the difference between player-sexual and bisexual then. Characters were made "bisexual" in DA2 for the purpose of the player choosing who they wanted to romance. If you speak to all the companions, with the exceptions of the ones I pointed out earlier, there is no indication that they are bisexual. Just because you can have a dialogue, build their approval, and then complete the romance arc doesn't mean they are bisexual. That is why there was a large outcry by the bisexual community because the characters weren't "bisexual." They were player-sexual, as it was put, and there was a huge backlash because of it. Gaider and BioWare have continuously stated all the companions are "bisexual" to save face due to how poorly they were handled.
That's why in DAI, companions that are bisexual (Iron Bull, Josephine, etc.) are bisexual from the start, and not based off the choices the player makes. Does that make sense? I think it's important everyone understand this in order to realize why BioWare is approaching sexuality and romances the way they are now.
Chari, I think the issue with Merrill may have more to do with the larger way the devs handled talking about sexualities in DA2...that was a super heated and ill defined conversation for a long time.
That being said, I think extra textual validation has a huge impact for people who are involved in discussing these things online with other people. There are some instances where ambiguity from the creators is needed...like it would be pretty crappy if Gaider said "this is the intended way to play the Landsmeet." because then we could no longer discuss our individual choices without people saying they were "wrong" and wouldn't add any real value to the conversations.
But to take another example, Gaider saying that Dorian was intended to be a man of color made that argument go away, which made discussing Dorian much more pleasant and more importantly, less stressful for fans of color who kept having to "justify" why they read him that way.
This ties back into my original point too, because Gaider did not feel comfortable clarifying about Fenris, because that conversation had been going on for so long and was so heated....on paper it's not so different to say whether or not he is a PoC, within the context it was more divisive.
That's why it would be great IMO to have a character who is read as demi and validated by the writers upfront. But this is all about dealing with a small section of the fans and the online communities that spring up around them...so its important to keep that in perspective.
Eh, no. That's a strange comparison. The Landsmeet is a series of events, actions, dialogues which happen during our playthrough (in sorta real time) hence we can influence the future outcome. Merrill's sexuality was defined by herself years prior to meeting Hawke. We deal with the canon, remember it. We just make our own world states using canon tools. We have no power over canon things like characters' personalities, sexualities, past choices and experiences etc
Player does not and should not define NPCs traits. Unless your PC is demigod or sth. A player can define only the future and the present
Not to mention that Merrill being bisexual does not invalidate her being demisexual. There are demibisexuals, demiheterosexual etc sexual. Demisexuality is about needing a bond to feel attraction, it's not about the gender, so...
I feel that poor D.Gaider didn't even think about Fenris being or not being a poc. As far as I know he doesn't even really influence his appearance, that's desginers' job. Not to mention that the definition of poc is very vague even among poc. Some say a poc just has to be darkskinned, some say it's not true. Some call dark-skinned caucausian poc, some say it's not true. Plus it's Thedas, not Europe. And Fenris is elf and we know very little about them. Do they even separate ethnicities within the race?.. I think that he made a pretty good decision not to poke the hive with a stick
I don't believe you understand the difference between player-sexual and bisexual then. Characters were made "bisexual" in DA2 for the purpose of the player choosing who they wanted to romance. If you speak to all the companions, with the exceptions of the ones I pointed out earlier, there is no indication that they are bisexual. Just because you can have a dialogue, build their approval, and then complete the romance arc doesn't mean they are bisexual. That is why there was a large outcry by the bisexual community because the characters weren't "bisexual." They were player-sexual, as it was put, and there was a huge backlash because of it. Gaider and BioWare have continuously stated all the companions are "bisexual" to save face due to how poorly they were handled.
That's why in DAI, companions that are bisexual (Iron Bull, Josephine, etc.) are by sexual from the start, and not based off the choices the player makes. Does that make sense? I think it's important everyone understand this in order to realize why BioWare is approaching sexuality and romances the way they are now.
Playersexuality is ****, no offense. But it's just ****. And it's a good thing they got rid of it
There is canon, there is a world which was created by the developers and writers in which we can play. Every figure, character and event in it was created by them, not us. We can play with these "toys", we can play these events, we can choose in a way how the proceed but we still choose from a canon set. The only toy we can use and change is our PC, the only clay toy you we can shapeshift as we please (and only to certain extent)
The Dragon age and Mass effect aren't the game in which we can choose what traits NPCs possess. Just like you can't change real people's traits. That's basically a good writing which creates realistic and well-made characters
Merril and others are bisexual because she is capable of feeling sexual attraction to both sexes. Just because Hawke in your playthrough happens to be of a certain sex doesn't mean she can't feel attraction to another sex. She has a capability to feel this sexual attraction either way
Some vagueness is always good but never forget that the creator can take it away any minute. Headcanons are fun but they're like deep forests - people get lost in them and forget about reality
Playersexuality is ****, no offense. But it's just ****. And it's a good thing they got rid of it
There is canon, there is a world which was created by the developers and writers in which we can play. Every figure, character and event in it was created by them, not us. We can play with these "toys", we can play these events, we can choose in a way how the proceed but we still choose from a canon set. The only toy we can use and change is our PC, the only clay toy you we can shapeshift as we please (and only to certain extent)
The Dragon age and Mass effect aren't the game in which we can choose what traits NPCs possess. Just like you can't change real people's traits. That's basically a good writing which creates realistic and well-made characters
Merril and others are bisexual because she is capable of feeling sexual attraction to both sexes. Just because Hawke in your playthrough happens to be of a certain sex doesn't mean she can't feel attraction to another sex. She has a capability to feel this sexual attraction either way
Some vagueness is always good but never forget that the creator can take it away any minute. Headcanons are fun but they're like deep forests - people get lost in them and forget about reality
I agree player-sexuality was bad and causing unintended consequences. That's why I fully support the way in which BioWare is approaching relationships in DAI. I believe it's far more realistic and far more respectful.
I understand the nature of the canon and what the writers have stated. What would make that argument more compelling, in my eyes, is if we actually encountered scenarios where companions may have been flirtatious with someone other than the PC. When all the affection is solely depicted at the PC, it makes it hard to determine and ground the full validity of these characters because they don't have the capacity to build relationships with others in the same way. They are made to be romance options for the player, and herein lies part of the problem with how sexuality is executed in BioWare games.
I thought how BioWare approached Aveline was a nice departure from the norm because she was able to build a relationship with someone outside of the PC. I believe BioWare should do more of that rather than giving this impression that the hero is so "irresistible" that he/she can persuade his/her way into anyone's bed. Race gating and gender gating will help resolve this issue to some degree, but having other 3rd parties as potential options for companions is an interesting idea going forward.
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