Got to say I half expected this topic to be instantly flooded with negative posts - very glad to see i was wrong
Being honest I have to admit I was pretty ignorant as to the exact meaning of terms like demisexual - something helpful posters, like Kallen, have clarify a great deal. Have to agree with what others have said in that having it in game in a way that made clear that it was a demisexual romance/character could be challenging but not impossible.
Both more inclusivity and variety are very welcome in gaming, and Bioware does seem to be one a very small number of game companies that have a commitment to either. So done well its something I'd be very interested to see.
Yeah, it's difficult because that dialogue might resonate with some people but completely go over the heads of others. The challenge is to present demi-sexuality in such a way that it 'counts' as representation to the people who care about it, but without having to use the word "demisexual" in game (since it would be just as out of place as one of the characters in DA calling themselves 'heterosexual' or 'gay'-- correct me if I'm wrong but those words are never actually spoken in the games, right? Because those are modern terms that don't really fit the language of Thedas?).
You're right Jade, within game lore the terms we use for sexuality don't exist.
lol people are taking this romance business way too seriously
No, the people making suggestions such as this simply want everyone to be able to find a romance option in-game that they can find appealing and enjoy role-playing. It's also a good way to raise awareness about such things. I for one think that including demisexuality would be lovely even if I had never heard of it before this post. No, especially because I had never heard of it before. It should only be done if it can done right; however, lest ye inadvertently give rise to unwanted and harmful misinformed stereotypes. It would be a tricky one to pull off, but such a romance sounds as though it would be highly rewarding.
Semyaza82, RevilFox, Hanako Ikezawa et 2 autres aiment ceci
lol people are taking this romance business way too seriously
The OP of this thread was educational and polite, and has fostered an interesting discussion about how different kinds of romance can be written and explored in Bioware RPGs. This is a very calm thread where people are talking respectfully about characterization, so I really don't understand this comment.
Semyaza82, Puppy Love, RevilFox et 5 autres aiment ceci
lol people are taking this romance business way too seriously
It's easy to say this when one sees their preferred kind of romance every where in media without having to search for it.
Is it possible that Bioware won't add this kind of relationship to their next game? Sure, of course. But I can't see anything wrong with asking for it or discussing how it might be implemented. If talking about romances in games isn't your bag, there's tons of other threads for your enjoyment.
Semyaza82, Puppy Love, RevilFox et 3 autres aiment ceci
The OP of this thread was educational and polite, and has fostered an interesting discussion about how different kinds of romance can be written and explored in Bioware RPGs. This is a very calm thread where people are talking respectfully about characterization, so I really don't understand this comment.
Some people just aren't happy unless they belittle things that others like that they themselves do not. At least that's my way of trying to put logic into that comment of theirs anyway.
I don't think one can represent a demisexual character beyond a doubt in-game without Word of God just flat-out saying what they are. I mean, they can be included, but as some others have said, they won't be identified as such in-universe and there's almost certainly no subculture for them to attach to.
I don't think one can represent a demisexual character beyond a doubt in-game without Word of God just flat-out saying what they are. I mean, they can be included, but as some others have said, they won't be identified as such in-universe and there's almost certainly no subculture for them to attach to.
Does that matter? Without Word of God, Merrill is an example of a demi character that people who are looking for representation, like Kallen, can point to when asked what they want. If the majority of people just assume she's bi...who cares?
Honestly I feel like demisexuality should be restricted completely to player controlled head cannon. It's far too vague and hard to implement in a game where the romance content is already extremely limited. I can't help to think that this challenge could potentially take away from an already taxed writing budget. In short, I would rather see more variety of romance options of the bisexual, gay, and lesbian variety that is just barely represented as it is.
Does that matter? Without Word of God, Merrill is an example of a demi character that people who are looking for representation, like Kallen, can point to when asked what they want. If the majority of people just assume she's bi...who cares?
I suppose it depends on what kind of representation people want.
I suppose it depends on what kind of representation people want.
I don't want to put words in Kallen's mouth, but I think it was originally stated (in other threads) that Merrill would have been great if not Word of Godded as Bi.
Does that matter? Without Word of God, Merrill is an example of a demi character that people who are looking for representation, like Kallen, can point to when asked what they want. If the majority of people just assume she's bi...who cares?
This is exactly my thought on it. It doesn't matter if they are or aren't officially declared that way in gay or Word of God. As long as it's left ambiguous enough so that people can head canon it, that's really all that matter.
I support this request. I'm a huge supporter of this request because I feel that the more diversity the better. It allows stories that haven't been told and allows people to see representation in a medium that doesn't really offer it elsewhere.
I don't want to put words in Kallen's mouth, but I think it was originally stated (in other threads) that Merrill would have been great if not Word of Godded as Bi.
Isn't it possible to be both bisexual and demisexual?
Aren't they techincally the same but different wording?
So my understanding (and it's a really novice understanding of the romantic spectrum) is that the romantic spectrum can be used to modify (or clarify) the sexuality spectrum. But not the other way around. But, I might be completely wrong about that.
So my understanding (and it's a really novice understanding of the romantic spectrum) is that the romantic spectrum can be used to modify (or clarify) the sexuality spectrum. But not the other way around. But, I might be completely wrong about that.
Because I just looked up biromantic and the one thing the caught my attention was: The sexual counterpart to biromantic is bisexual
A biromantic demisexual would not experience primary sexual attraction to men or women, but would be capable of feeling romantic attraction (and then secondary sexual attraction) to both. Merrill fits that criteria because she falls in love with both m&f hawke. Isabela fits bisexual because she is sexually attracted to both before she has romantic feelings.
A bisexual demisexual is a contradiction, because it's saying that they do experience sexual attraction without romantic attraction, but also not.
Some people walk in contradictions though, so I'm sure its possible for someone, somewhere to identify with that? But it's not quite what Kallen is talkin g about.
Developers are going to use words most of their audience can understand. I have to say I'm annoyed by the pansexual declaration of Iron Bull, because now the definition police need to constantly declare that he is NOT bisexual he is PANsexual. I don't think any of the characters are ever going to declare their sexuality in game, we will see only who they are available to, men, women, both, neither. I really don't want more than that in a game. It allows me to fill in the spaces and not have my preferences erased. Having a demisexual character in the game would be fine with me, as a love interest I just see it as exclusionary. We've seen how upset people can't romance the character of their choice or when they do not like a character's hairstyle. Having a character you're not sure you're romancing and isn't sure you're romancing them, one who you have to jump through hoops for to maybe be attracted to you seems like it might as well not be a romance. Maybe it would be interesting, but if the person I wanted to romance in game was gay and demisexual I would be upset. My options are few and then it would be taken away. I'd much prefer characters like Merrill being possibly demisexual or Sebastian possibly being asexual than a black marker being drawn across what most would consider a romance story. I think most people have a similar idea of what romance is and looks like- maybe their ideal partner looks different, but we expect kindness and flirtation. I wouldn't suddenly want my inquisitor cast in a dom/sub relationship, or dating someone interested in cuckolding or a polyamorous relationship. I was just playing DA2 and I somehow managed to romance Fenris and Merrill- both were wearing their love token outfits. Suddenly I knew something else about them and Hawke. Yes, it was a glitch, or maybe just an opening I could fill in- I feel like that is enough. If I tried to date Fenris and he suddenly waned to bring in a third I would have felt cheated- dealbreaker, but without expressly written lines, as a player I could decide what all of that meant. In summation, I don't feel it is helpful to dissect a character down to their most precise sexual identity. Write a character and a romance, let the player fill in the rest. Have the romances be different enough to satisfy the widest group and largest audience.
Because I just looked up biromantic and the one thing the caught my attention was: The sexual counterpart to biromantic is bisexual
So, as I said, I'm still figuring it out myself. Trying to explain it is a really good way for me to process my thoughts. So, I'm starting to view it as two different spectra: one for romantic attraction and one for sexual attraction. So a biromantic experiences romantic attraction to both males and females and a bisexual experiences sexual attraction to both males and females. At least, I think that's how I'm seeing it right now. All this being said, I can't actually see myself using the romantic spectrum as a self-identifier. I'm happy with identifying as just plain ol' gay.
A biromantic demisexual would not experience primary sexual attraction to men or women, but would be capable of feeling romantic attraction (and then secondary sexual attraction) to both. Merrill fits that criteria because she falls in love with both m&f hawke. Isabela fits bisexual because she is sexually attracted to both before she has romantic feelings.
A bisexual demisexual is a contradiction, because it's saying that they do experience sexual attraction without romantic attraction, but also not.
Some people walk in contradictions though, so I'm sure its possible for someone, somewhere to identify with that? But it's not quite what Kallen is talkin g about.
...I hope I got all that right XD
This is really well-written and so much clearer than I can explain it.
Developers are going to use words most of their audience can understand. I have to say I'm annoyed by the pansexual declaration of Iron Bull, because now the definition police need to constantly declare that he is NOT bisexual he is PANsexual. I don't think any of the characters are ever going to declare their sexuality in game, we will see only who they are available to, men, women, both, neither. I really don't want more than that in a game. It allows me to fill in the spaces and not have my preferences erased. Having a demisexual character in the game would be fine with me, as a love interest I just see it as exclusionary. We've seen how upset people can't romance the character of their choice or when they do not like a character's hairstyle. Having a character you're not sure you're romancing and isn't sure you're romancing them, one who you have to jump through hoops for to maybe be attracted to you seems like it might as well not be a romance. Maybe it would be interesting, but if the person I wanted to romance in game was gay and demisexual I would be upset. My options are few and then it would be taken away. I'd much prefer characters like Merrill being possibly demisexual or Sebastian possibly being asexual than a black marker being drawn across what most would consider a romance story. I think most people have a similar idea of what romance is and looks like- maybe their ideal partner looks different, but we expect kindness and flirtation. I wouldn't suddenly want my inquisitor cast in a dom/sub relationship, or dating someone interested in cuckolding or a polyamorous relationship. I was just playing DA2 and I somehow managed to romance Fenris and Merrill- both were wearing their love token outfits. Suddenly I knew something else about them and Hawke. Yes, it was a glitch, or maybe just an opening I could fill in- I feel like that is enough. If I tried to date Fenris and he suddenly waned to bring in a third I would have felt cheated- dealbreaker, but without expressly written lines, as a player I could decide what all of that meant. In summation, I don't feel it is helpful to dissect a character down to their most precise sexual identity. Write a character and a romance, let the player fill in the rest. Have the romances be different enough to satisfy the widest group and largest audience.
I find the use of the term "definition police" to be kind of offensive here, because Pansexuality and Bisexuality are actually two different things. Calling people who point this out the "definition police" is implying that there is no difference other than the letters. Here is a pretty good distinction between the two: http://www.differenc...and-pan-sexual/
As for the rest...I have no problem with any of the things you described, to be honest. I'm not personally interested in all of them, and plenty of things you didn't mention, but if they wanted to make a LI who was? Zero issue with me. I actually like the idea of having some relationships that just don't work out for reasons beyond just not liking the other person. If the dom/sub relationship is something they happen to be into and I'm not, I think that's sort of an interesting, complex issue that I have no problem exploring in game. I don't think all romances need to be eternal to be successful.
People get upset because calling IB bisexual reminds them of having their own pan sexuality erased. They aren't policing, they are asking for their identity to be respected.
There's a lot in your post to deconstruct and talk about, but I'm on mobile so I'll have to let someone else do it, or I'll chat later
Developers are going to use words most of their audience can understand. I have to say I'm annoyed by the pansexual declaration of Iron Bull, because now the definition police need to constantly declare that he is NOT bisexual he is PANsexual. I don't think any of the characters are ever going to declare their sexuality in game, we will see only who they are available to, men, women, both, neither. I really don't want more than that in a game. It allows me to fill in the spaces and not have my preferences erased. Having a demisexual character in the game would be fine with me, as a love interest I just see it as exclusionary. We've seen how upset people can't romance the character of their choice or when they do not like a character's hairstyle. Having a character you're not sure you're romancing and isn't sure you're romancing them, one who you have to jump through hoops for to maybe be attracted to you seems like it might as well not be a romance. Maybe it would be interesting, but if the person I wanted to romance in game was gay and demisexual I would be upset. My options are few and then it would be taken away. I'd much prefer characters like Merrill being possibly demisexual or Sebastian possibly being asexual than a black marker being drawn across what most would consider a romance story. I think most people have a similar idea of what romance is and looks like- maybe their ideal partner looks different, but we expect kindness and flirtation. I wouldn't suddenly want my inquisitor cast in a dom/sub relationship, or dating someone interested in cuckolding or a polyamorous relationship. I was just playing DA2 and I somehow managed to romance Fenris and Merrill- both were wearing their love token outfits. Suddenly I knew something else about them and Hawke. Yes, it was a glitch, or maybe just an opening I could fill in- I feel like that is enough. If I tried to date Fenris and he suddenly waned to bring in a third I would have felt cheated- dealbreaker, but without expressly written lines, as a player I could decide what all of that meant. In summation, I don't feel it is helpful to dissect a character down to their most precise sexual identity. Write a character and a romance, let the player fill in the rest. Have the romances be different enough to satisfy the widest group and largest audience.
Comment under spoiler cut for sizing courtesy.
That is a fairly dismissive comment. I sincerely hope you didn't mean for it to be read as it was.
First of all, this is a request. You don't have to agree with it. But there's no need to bring criticisms of people trying to avoid a very sensitive topic. Your example with Iron Bull's pansexuality, for example, heckles people because pansexuals already face erasure by people shoving them into the bisexual label. Which doesn't fit. More than that, Bull has been confirmed as pansexual, so people are simply correcting you if you call him bisexual. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be called bi if I was pan, and I would tell people as much if they asked. You don't have to do this aggressively, either, so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you've run into some zealous posters that have soured your perspective.
Second, representation of invisible groups is important. Perhaps not to you, but to me it is. Half the people I know think that the "A" in LGBTQIA stands for "Allies"...it doesn't. Asexuals, to whom the letter is meant to refer, are often overlooked and underrepresented in media, like many other LGBTQIA groups. I don't know the last time I saw an asexual character that was confirmed as asexual...Sherlock Holmes from BBC's Sherlock, I believe, was confirmed as asexual. So we make do with what we can. Characters like Ariadne from Inception, Sherlock Holmes from the novels by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, and my homeboy Bilbo Baggins from The Hobbit, have all been suspected and headcanoned as asexual. But this is what we're left to most of the time - and it's difficult, because asexuality does not imply a lack of romance. It states a lack of interest in sex. Which makes it easy for people to simply write it off or assume they are a sexual character shown outside of sexual situations.
This is particularly difficult for demisexuals, who fall in that gray-A spectrum and are unfortunately stuck in something of a middle. It is even more difficult because you face the dilemma of how to write these characters without erasing their sexualities...too far one way and they come across as sexual, and too far the other and people might think they're asexual (rare, but it's been known to happen). That is why I want to see it done. I want to see it tried because I have never seen a character made where its creator just says "yep, this character is demi, deal with it." End of conversation, it's confirmed, no one can argue it. Instead asexuality and demisexuality are left to linger in the shadows of doubt - are they or are they not? - while others can have confirmation for sexual characters, a privilege that some sexualities and asexualities are not entitled to. Just because it's difficult does not mean it shouldn't be tried. And while I'm usually wary of simple solutions, Word of God is easy enough to dispel any comments naysayers might have that contradict it.
So yes, I fully support the idea for a demi LI in a future title. And I will continue to do so. Thank you Kallen for putting this out there, and thank you to the posters that have been amenable to the concept.
Remmirath, Tayah, RevilFox et 7 autres aiment ceci
I find the use of the term "definition police" to be kind of offensive here, because Pansexuality and Bisexuality are actually two different things. Calling people who point this out the "definition police" is implying that there is no difference other than the letters. Here is a pretty good distinction between the two: http://www.differenc...and-pan-sexual/
As for the rest...I have no problem with any of the things you described, to be honest. I'm not personally interested in all of them, and plenty of things you didn't mention, but if they wanted to make a LI who was? Zero issue with me. I actually like the idea of having some relationships that just don't work out for reasons beyond just not liking the other person. If the dom/sub relationship is something they happen to be into and I'm not, I think that's sort of an interesting, complex issue that I have no problem exploring in game. I don't think all romances need to be eternal to be successful.
The game doesn't last until eternity, the time period in DA2 was exceptionally long, but most are maybe a few months, regardless, the time period we would be talking about here is still the initial "getting-to-know-you" section. I am not saying these things aren't interesting, but in a game not specifically about romances, killing off romance options for some people would feel unfair. It would be like if a straight romance suddenly declared they were gay. Upset gamers.
Pansexual and bisexual are almost identical and mostly overlapping. Pansexual does not mean you are only attracted to those who have no gender signifiers, only that those are unimportant. Gender signifiers can be cosmetic, based on personal style or fitness choices, and therefore changed or modified or recoded. So while the difference may be important to some who chose to identify as pansexual they really don't create a difference as the object they are focused on can shift. If the definition of pansexuality relies on saying it does not recognize gender and gender is socially created and agreed upon and not a solid scientific structure then it is a distinction and not a definition.
Bisexuality does does not erase pansexuality, just like queer does not erase gay. I am both. If I want to be precise I can say gay male. I may identify a subset of men I find attractive, but only calling me gay does not erase any part of me.
I'd much prefer characters like Merrill being possibly demisexual or Sebastian possibly being asexual than a black marker being drawn across what most would consider a romance story.
Also, I just want to call out this specific point. You can make an argument that Merrill is demisexual. I tend to believe this is, despite Word of God. But Sebastian is in no way asexual. He is sexually attracted to people and interested in sex, he just abstains from it. That's not the same thing.
Retour en haut
