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A Request for Demisexuality in Bioware Games


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#51
Hanako Ikezawa

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That's why I think it would be best if the LI knew what they were about, instead of the PC being their first and the one who made them feel this way. Can't be confused with orientation confusion if the LI isn't confused. It also wouldn't feed into the stereotype of the demisexual as "just a normal person who wants a special snowflake romance"

This made me think of a common problem for demisexuals. Since they only form attraction after building a strong bond, they tend to get 'friendzoned' by the target of their affection. We never had a love interest who had that happen top them in the past before. They either always got with their past love but it didn't last, never got a love at all, or just never cared for one at all. 

 

Got to say I half expected this topic to be instantly flooded with negative posts - very glad to see i was wrong :)

 

Being honest I have to admit I was pretty ignorant as to the exact meaning of terms like demisexual - something helpful posters, like Kallen, have clarify a great deal. Have to agree with what others have said in that having it in game in a way that made clear that it was a demisexual romance/character could be challenging but not impossible.

 

Both more inclusivity and variety are very welcome in gaming, and Bioware does seem to be one a very small number of game companies that have a commitment to either. So done well its something I'd be very interested to see.

To be honest, I half expected it to as well. 

Glad I was able to help give information. :)

 

I don't want to put words in Kallen's mouth, but I think it was originally stated (in other threads) that Merrill would have been great if not Word of Godded as Bi.

You are correct. From when DA2 was released to when Gaider said she was bisexual at GaymerX this year, so for over three years, I thought I had representation through Merrill.

 

Its possible to be biromantic demisexual but you can't be bisexual demisexual. Well maybe someone could but I don't know how they'd define it.

Well, according to one of the sites I got the information from one can be demisexual and bisexual by "appending a gender orientation to the label". So Merrill for example would be demi-bisexual. Sort of like how people who are asexual can be heterosexual as well, thus are ace-heterosexual.

 

I try to see it as like an X and Y axis graph.

The X axis is the orientations like heterosexual, bisexual, homosexual, pansexual, etc. and explain what genders one may develop an attraction.

The Y axis is the orientations like asexual, demisexual, and sexual and explain how one may or may not develop an attraction.

When together it shows the possible combinations. Same applies to the romantic spectrums. 

 

Comment under spoiler cut for sizing courtesy.

 

That is a fairly dismissive comment.  I sincerely hope you didn't mean for it to be read as it was.

 

First of all, this is a request.  You don't have to agree with it.  But there's no need to bring criticisms of people trying to avoid a very sensitive topic.  Your example with Iron Bull's pansexuality, for example, heckles people because pansexuals already face erasure by people shoving them into the bisexual label.  Which doesn't fit.  More than that, Bull has been confirmed as pansexual, so people are simply correcting you if you call him bisexual.  I sure as hell wouldn't want to be called bi if I was pan, and I would tell people as much if they asked.  You don't have to do this aggressively, either, so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you've run into some zealous posters that have soured your perspective.

 

Second, representation of invisible groups is important.  Perhaps not to you, but to me it is.  Half the people I know think that the "A" in LGBTQIA stands for "Allies"...it doesn't.  Asexuals, to whom the letter is meant to refer, are often overlooked and underrepresented in media, like many other LGBTQIA groups.  I don't know the last time I saw an asexual character that was confirmed as asexual...Sherlock Holmes from BBC's Sherlock, I believe, was confirmed as asexual.  So we make do with what we can.  Characters like Ariadne from Inception, Sherlock Holmes from the novels by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, and my homeboy Bilbo Baggins from The Hobbit, have all been suspected and headcanoned as asexual.  But this is what we're left to most of the time - and it's difficult, because asexuality does not imply a lack of romance.  It states a lack of interest in sex.  Which makes it easy for people to simply write it off or assume they are a sexual character shown outside of sexual situations.

 

This is particularly difficult for demisexuals, who fall in that gray-A spectrum and are unfortunately stuck in something of a middle.  It is even more difficult because you face the dilemma of how to write these characters without erasing their sexualities...too far one way and they come across as sexual, and too far the other and people might think they're asexual (rare, but it's been known to happen).  That is why I want to see it done.  I want to see it tried because I have never seen a character made where its creator just says "yep, this character is demi, deal with it."  End of conversation, it's confirmed, no one can argue it.  Instead asexuality and demisexuality are left to linger in the shadows of doubt - are they or are they not? - while others can have confirmation for sexual characters, a privilege that some sexualities and asexualities are not entitled to.  Just because it's difficult does not mean it shouldn't be tried.  And while I'm usually wary of simple solutions, Word of God is easy enough to dispel any comments naysayers might have that contradict it.

 

So yes, I fully support the idea for a demi LI in a future title.  And I will continue to do so.  Thank you Kallen for putting this out there, and thank you to the posters that have been amenable to the concept.

Exactly. In all of my years of playing games, watching anime and television shows, reading books, etc there have been only around two dozen characters who may even possibly be demisexual, and only a few of those have some evidence to help support that assertion rather than just a feeling. To give a rather surprising example to me, one of them is Master Chief Petty Officer Spartan John-117. But like you said with asexual characters, they are almost never confirmed as such. For example none of the possibly demisexual characters on my list have been confirmed as such, at least to my knowledge. 

 

You are welcome. :)

And I also thank all the positive posters here. :)


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#52
veeia

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The game doesn't last until eternity, the time period in DA2 was exceptionally long, but most are maybe a few months, regardless, the time period we would be talking about here is still the initial "getting-to-know-you" section.  I am not saying these things aren't interesting, but in a game not specifically about romances, killing off romance options for some people would feel unfair.  It would be like if a straight romance suddenly declared they were gay.  Upset gamers.  

 

Pansexual and bisexual are almost identical and mostly overlapping.  Pansexual does not mean you are only attracted to those who have no gender signifiers, only that those are unimportant.  Gender signifiers can be cosmetic, based on personal style or fitness choices, and therefore changed or modified or recoded.  So while the difference may be important to some who chose to identify as pansexual they really don't create a difference as the object they are focused on can shift.  If the definition of pansexuality relies on saying it does not recognize gender and gender is socially created and agreed upon and not a solid scientific structure then it is a distinction and not a definition.

 

Bisexuality does does not erase pansexuality, just like queer does not erase gay.  I am both.  If I want to be precise I can say gay male.  I may identify a subset of men I find attractive, but only calling me gay does not erase any part of me.  

 

A character who was demisexual would not take away from gay or straight relationships. There are plenty of demisexuals in relationships with heterosexual, bisexual, and pansexual people, etc. Merrill is thrown out in this thread as an example of one, and her being a romance didn't take away from anyone? It was only additive because demisexuals could find representation in her. 

 

Also, I am not going to argue about the difference between bi & pan in this thread, because I have a feeling it would end up derailing too much, but you don't get to decide for other people what their identity is or how they label it. It's okay to be confused or think they are essentially the same, but it's kind of crappy to not use people's preferred terms if your'e aware of them like people are with IB. 


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#53
DaySeeker

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Re: Clever Name

 

I am not against representation of the sexualties you mentioned, and many you haven't, but i don't think video games are the media for it, or at least not RPG's.  I argue for a degree of ambiguity so people can fill in the cracks with what they like, as I mentioned in a previous post.  I watched a few seasons of Dexter and he came across to me as asexual, his wife was a beard, he didn't seem interested in sex with her, but he seemed to care about her.  I believe this later changed and they made him definitely hetero, but before that I found him interesting.  A TV show or movie where the viewer has no control or choices, who has a chance to get to know a character is a better venue than a video game which has an audience that expects and wants.  They do not want to be denied.  There were pages of people complaining about characters not being available to them or their physical appearance not being exactly what they wanted- the complaints for even more gates to love interests would be huge and in important ways to many kill the reason for even having romances.  Demisexuality and asexuality seems like it would exclude a large number of people if it were explicitly stated.  Sebastian's relationship was asexual and in my head his talk of previous lovers was his attempts to do what he thought he must.  He may have tried to have sex and failed each time.  He may have exaggerated because he was uncomfortable sharing that much at that point.  It was enough for me to see him as asexual and if the developers just let the romance be what it was without them saying he was heterosexual and that somehow excluding any possibility of asexual to the players (which again, I don't see why it would have to) then anything not stated could be what I imagined. 


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#54
WizzoMaFizzo

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Thedas hasn't invented the internet or high school RP yet

http://factualwiley....ost/46405111996



#55
DaySeeker

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Iron Bull has not declared his sexuality to me.  I haven't played the game, maybe he will.  If he tells me he wants to be identified as pansexual, fine.  His writer has said he is.  I don't see that as the same thing.  My limited reading of IB is that he's not that interested in definitions.  My Inquisitor is going be gender coded as male when I romance him because that is the character I like to make.  He can find whoever he likes attractive as long he is good to my character.



#56
LiquidLyrium

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Actually, m!Shep's romance with Kaidan read as demisexual to me, in ME3. But that sort of ties in with the issue Bioware has of LIs treating the PC differently/disclosing different things based on the PC's gender, which is a feature I haven't really liked in the past? I mean I get saying/doing slightly different things with a different gendered PC, but disclosing different things is sorta not cool. (This is just an example I know off the top of my head, not a comment on any specific LI: Like Anders not telling f!Hawke about his relationship with Karl.) I would totally be into a demisexual romance, though.

 

You'd need a game like DA2 though, maybe, where the gameplay spans several years/a long time however I think. Or else something across several titles, like with Kaidan and M!Shep.



#57
veeia

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You're right, IB has not said he's pansexual nor will he say he is that or bisexual because those words do not exist in Thedas. I mispoke to say it's his preferred term.  He may have lines of dialogue that indicate this, although I don't know how they'd do that. My point does still stand for real life pansexuals though. 

 

However, for people who identify as pansexual, having that label attached to him by his writer is huge, and while you don't have to agree with it or read him that way, neither do you have to condescend to people who want to keep that. That's why I got frustrated by your "definition police" line, because they aren't trying to police anyone, they just don't have any other characters that represent them, and when someone denies them that, it's like taking away the one thing they have.So it hurts, and they get upset. 

 

@Wizzo....Not even going to touch that poorly written "gotcha!" blog post. Even if the word has weird origins, most things do. Etymology is a fascinating subject. That doesn't invalidate the concept nor the people who have found meaning in it. I'm also not a fan of the "ha ha look at these weird, sad things teenage girls do! they're so dumb! " tone that permeates that post. Being a person is hard, and being a person who doesn't quite understand where they fit in is even harder. I've seen all the anti-demisexual arguments out there, and they all seem to boil down to equating teenage girls with being "attention wh*res" and I aint about that misogynistic life. 


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#58
xXxshemlifexXx

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"No sex until emotional bond" kind of sounds functionally identical to how every romance in the DA games has played out anyway.

 

Besides Zev, Morrigan and Isabela I guess.


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#59
eyezonlyii

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This is exactly my thought on it.  It doesn't matter if they are or aren't officially declared that way in gay or Word of God.  As long as it's left ambiguous enough so that people can head canon it, that's really all that matter.
 

So, as I said, I'm still figuring it out myself.  Trying to explain it is a really good way for me to process my thoughts.  So, I'm starting to view it as two different spectra:  one for romantic attraction and one for sexual attraction.  So a biromantic experiences romantic attraction to both males and females and a bisexual experiences sexual attraction to both males and females.  At least, I think that's how I'm seeing it right now.  All this being said, I can't actually see myself using the romantic spectrum as a self-identifier.  I'm happy with identifying as just plan ol gay.


This is how my seventh grade teacher explained it to us many many moons ago. Sex and gender are two different things. Sex is male or female and gender is how one expresses their sex. It's simple and worked so far for me.
Now get off my lawn!

#60
Hanako Ikezawa

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Actually, m!Shep's romance with Kaidan read as demisexual to me, in ME3. But that sort of ties in with the issue Bioware has of LIs treating the PC differently/disclosing different things based on the PC's gender, which is a feature I haven't really liked in the past? I mean I get saying/doing slightly different things with a different gendered PC, but disclosing different things is sorta not cool. (This is just an example I know off the top of my head, not a comment on any specific LI: Like Anders not telling f!Hawke about his relationship with Karl.) I would totally be into a demisexual romance, though.

 

You'd need a game like DA2 though, maybe, where the gameplay spans several years/a long time however I think. Or else something across several titles, like with Kaidan and M!Shep.

I'd be fine with that. For example sort of like how it took two games for Garrus and Tali to be interested in Shepard romantically, but unlike them this character was planned from the startto do that as part of the overall romance arc of the character. 

 

 

"No sex until emotional bond" kind of sounds functionally identical to how every romance in the DA games has played out anyway.

 

Besides Zev, Morrigan and Isabela I guess.

It's not "no sex until emotional bond", it's "no sexual attraction until emotional bond". So while many LIs do wait a while before the sex scene occurs, they are still attracted to the protagonist from early on. That and other factors exclude them from being demisexual. 


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#61
GodBrandon

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What has the world come to

#62
eyezonlyii

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What has the world come to


The same thing it came to in the other thread.
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#63
Nefla

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Sounds interesting, and if any game company could pull it off BioWare could. :)



#64
Gothfather

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Honestly I feel like demisexuality should be restricted completely to player controlled head cannon.  It's far too vague and hard to implement in a game where the romance content is already extremely limited.  I can't help to think that this challenge could potentially take away from an already taxed writing budget.  In short, I would rather see more variety of romance options of the bisexual, gay, and lesbian variety that is just barely represented as it is.  

 

Just my own preference on the matter though.  

 

[bold added by me]

 

I'm a bit confussed here.

 

Romances based on race gender and sexuality of Inquisitor.

 

number of romances any race gay male can romance = 2

number of romances any race gay female can roamce = 2

number of romances any race straight male can romance = 2

number of romances Dwarf, Qunari straight female can romance = 2

number of romances human straight female can romance = 3

number of romances elf straight female can romance = 4

number of romances any race bi men can romance = 4

number of romances any dwarf qunari bi female can romance = 4

number of romances any human bi female can romance = 5

number of romances any elf bi female can romance = 6

 

Number of companions of a given sexuality and gender

 

1 gay male

1 gay female

1 bi female

1 pan male

1 straight female

3 straight men

 

 

This breakdown shows pretty equal representation both in the sexuality of the companions and in the options available to your inquisitor based on sexuality and gender. If the romance options of the bisexual, gay, and lesbian variety are just barely represented, then so are romances for herto men. Half the straight female inquisitors also get the same representation.

 

what are you suggesting by your last statement? It seems like you are implying that there was token representation but its not really true. I thought things were done really well. What bothers me about your last sentence is that gives credence to people who say "oh those people are never happy no matter what you do." I can't understand the complaint you have i mean WTF how many romances must they have so that its not "barely represented."

 

[to anyone]

I think BioWare was hugely representative in DA:I and i defy anyone to prove it otherwise. And in your argument remember unequal =/= unfair. Sports players on a team, musicians in an orchestra all get paid unequal amounts but its still fair. So your argument have to go address this.



#65
Lee80

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-snip-

One gay male love interest (Dorian) throughout the whole series does not count as great representation.  We are getting there slowly but surely, but we still have a long way to go.  If you can't see that, then I won't waste my time with you.  Happy posting. 


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#66
Gothfather

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People get upset because calling IB bisexual reminds them of having their own pan sexuality erased. They aren't policing, they are asking for their identity to be respected.

There's a lot in your post to deconstruct and talk about, but I'm on mobile so I'll have to let someone else do it, or I'll chat later :)

I agree but there is always going to be a dichotomy of how we view ourselves and how others view us. People can't read our minds.  And given that gender and sexuality is extremely hard to view in another person beyond broad strokes of looks male/looks female for gender and seems to like what looks like women/seems to like what looks like men or likes what seems to be both. Its very hard or near in possible for people to not get it wrong for anything that is nuanced.

 

Gender and sexual identiy is important but other people will also have to identify you in terms that make sense to them. I don't think there is anyway to solve the dichotomy and I think we should be a little more understanding that it exists. Some people will never understand some of the nuances and its not because they are being disrespectful its they just have no experiences to give them a frame of reference. And because it doesn't make sense to them its very hard for them to think in these terms or even remember them beyond the short term. look how hard it is for many open minded people to explain things on this thread. Its not easy. And I haven't even touched on the fact that people can identify themselves as X be told the definitions of X and Y and disagree because they are X but they are like y according to the definition. So even people within a given gender or sexuality can disagree which doesn't make it any easier to try and explain nuanced genders and sexuality let alone deal with the dichotomy of "my persception of myself and other people's perception of me."

 

And to be clear this dichotomy exists for all forms of identity, how you view yourself about everything will be different from how others view you. Also I am sure we have all experience cases where someone else know us better than we knew ourselves about a specific feature of ourselves.



#67
(Disgusted noise.)

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Well, semantically, all pansexuals are bisexual, but not all bisexuals are pansexual. So, while I understand the desire for visibility and specificity, the objections are like a gay man objecting to being referred to as LGBT or queer. It's not your most preferred label, but it's also not inaccurate, and constantly jumping on people about it can come off a little combative.



#68
Who Knows

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Unless Iron Bull expresses interest towards one or more characters outside of the gender binary, the writer clarification that he is pansexual seems like fluff.

It is like Dumbledore being declared gay when there was nothing of that in the books.


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#69
In Exile

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See I read those and Demisexual does not at all spring to mind. I don't know if you can have representation when most people don't even realise its being represented.

 

Just to be clear I support representation of people's sexuality, but I think its important to do it well. I think its better not to have representation then to have poor representation, but other people might disagree. And frankly I don't know what the right answer is.

 

Representation isn't necessarily about everyone knowing. Often it is, and it usually should be, because visibility is important. But to take the examples people have used in this thread, simply writing a character that fits without the labels as a cue for those who share the orientation would be a big step forward. 


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#70
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Re: Clever Name

 

I am not against representation of the sexualties you mentioned, and many you haven't, but i don't think video games are the media for it, or at least not RPG's.  I argue for a degree of ambiguity so people can fill in the cracks with what they like, as I mentioned in a previous post.  I watched a few seasons of Dexter and he came across to me as asexual, his wife was a beard, he didn't seem interested in sex with her, but he seemed to care about her.  I believe this later changed and they made him definitely hetero, but before that I found him interesting.  A TV show or movie where the viewer has no control or choices, who has a chance to get to know a character is a better venue than a video game which has an audience that expects and wants.  They do not want to be denied.  There were pages of people complaining about characters not being available to them or their physical appearance not being exactly what they wanted- the complaints for even more gates to love interests would be huge and in important ways to many kill the reason for even having romances.  Demisexuality and asexuality seems like it would exclude a large number of people if it were explicitly stated.  Sebastian's relationship was asexual and in my head his talk of previous lovers was his attempts to do what he thought he must.  He may have tried to have sex and failed each time.  He may have exaggerated because he was uncomfortable sharing that much at that point.  It was enough for me to see him as asexual and if the developers just let the romance be what it was without them saying he was heterosexual and that somehow excluding any possibility of asexual to the players (which again, I don't see why it would have to) then anything not stated could be what I imagined. 

 

RPGs are absolutely the media for it. In fact, of all video-games, and even most entertainment, they're best suited, because of how much an RPG is just embracing of the concept of a self-insert. You're not just seeing something, you're actively participating in it. 

 

So a demisexual PC, and a demisexual LI, are both important aspects to representation. 


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#71
Gothfather

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One gay male love interest (Dorian) throughout the whole series does not count as great representation.  We are getting there slowly but surely, but we still have a long way to go.  If you can't see that, then I won't waste my time with you.  Happy posting. 

 

I can see that you are using the past as an excuse not to admit you have fair representation in the "now." If you constantly hold the past over people especially when they are making consistant strides forward, you only encourage them to say, "why bother? Why go beyond representing the majority when the minority will complain that its not enough because in the past you ignored us? Its cost more, it requires more effort to be inclusive and our reward is more complaints?"

 

I do not claim that in history of gaming isn't a more or less empty wildreness when it comes to representation but Bioware has actually move very fast. When you compare how slow the progress was before the flood gates have opened up really rather quickly with regards to Bioware. Dragon age: origins is just barely 5 years old, given the development time of games is multiple years they have moved VERY fast. Seriously what doe sbioware have to do before they get applause for their inclusiveness instead of more griping?

 

If the only reward for enlightenment is condemnation of not being enlightened sooner, I ask you in all serious how do you think that will be perceived and recieved?


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#72
Gothfather

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Representation isn't necessarily about everyone knowing. Often it is, and it usually should be, because visibility is important. But to take the examples people have used in this thread, simply writing a character that fits without the labels as a cue for those who share the orientation would be a big step forward. 

 

For my clairification...

 

So is Merrill representation of demisexuality or does the official "stamp" of her being bisexual override/overshadow her ability to be a demisexual representative? 



#73
RevilFox

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For my clairification...

 

So is Merrill representation of demisexuality or does the official "stamp" of her being bisexual override/overshadow her ability to be a demisexual representative? 

It depends on who you talk to. I'm not a demisexual, but I consider her to be one despite Word of God. But Kallen, who IS demisexual, does not consider her one because of Word of God. Frankly, I find Kallen's opinion on this matter more important than my own.


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#74
Natashina

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I'm also going to defer to Kallen on this one.  For some, including Kallen, Merrill is not demisexual.  She is bisexual, confirmed as such by David Gaider at GaymerX this year.  Look, I can't pretend to completely understand where Kallen is coming frin, due to being bisexual myself.  However, I do know the sting of having my sexual representation erased by Word of God, and it's terrible.  It hurts.  

 

Frankly, this kind of romance seems quite doable.  It would not only allow me to RP through a different set of eyes (my big reason for loving RPGs,) but I think I would enjoy a romance like this.  I enjoy the idea of romancing someone that is demisexual, with focus more on romance than sex.  Also, I think this would be valuable in a way.  There is so much misunderstanding about demisexual/asexuality, that I think a demi character could help clarify.  It would take a lot of work by the writers, and might be very tricky to do.  I can see the value in such a romance and I fully support it.

 

If you disagree with her, then that's fine, but try to remain respectful.  And don't tell her, "Merrill is good enough," because Merrill is not considered a representation of Kallen's sexuality.  For now, the Feedback forums has been requests for games going forward, i.e DA4 and beyond.  Since Merrill, while close, was not a demisexual, I think this is a wonderful idea for future games.


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#75
Kantr

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To go off topic a bit. Isnt everyone (aside from psycopaths) demi-sexual to an extent?