1942 réponses à ce sujet

[Grieving Natashina]

Um, why is this an either or thing?  Did including a gay character take away focus from the overall story?  Did the various straight characters?  Heck, would you come into a thread asking for different romances for straight guys, " Stop suggesting romance ideas, they need to focus on the story?"  I post in that straight male LI thread all the time, and funny that I haven't seen a lot of people pull this attitude.   You know, we could consider all romance content to be "taking away focus from the story" when truthfully it's a great bonus for a lot of fans.

 

Patrick and Karen Weekes both expressed interested at GaymerX last year in doing an asexual or demisexual romance.  I'll happily pull up the link if anyone wants to see.  The whole panel with them is excellent.  Patrick Weekes is the new head writer, so I can certainly see him taking this into consideration.  

 

With that in mind, the regulars in this thread are coming up with ideas.  If you think that BW is spending too much time including non-traditional romances, you're free to start your own thread.  I don't post in here much, but I've always supported this idea 100%.    I lurk in this thread a lot, and I've seen almost no one ask for an extra romance in this game or the next, only to have one of the 6-8 in the next game be demisexual.  Certainly none of the posters that come in here far more often than I do.  A bi-romantic demisexual would allow everyone to see what a demisexual relationship could be like.  No one has "lose" representation, and my ace/demi friends can gain some.  In terms of "taking away story focus" this would be no better or no worse than any other romance arc.

 

However, thanks for keeping this thread bumped.  

[RINNZ]

Remember folks, if you don't have anything nice to say then don't say it at all. I've learned a great deal from this thread (ignoring the little jests towards the straight male gamer) and I don't wanna see it shut down.

[Grieving Natashina]

Remember folks, if you don't have anything nice to say then don't say it at all. I've learned a great deal from this thread (ignoring the little nests of the straight male gamer) and I don't wanna see it shut down.

I'm feeling the exact same way.  I have a better understanding of ace/demisexuality now because of this thread than I did when Hana first started it.  It's good stuff and I hate seeing comments like that.  I find it sadly funny that the straight male LI thread has almost none of that attitude.

[RINNZ]

I'm feeling the exact same way.  I have a better understanding of ace/demisexuality now because of this thread than I did when Hana first started it.  It's good stuff and I hate seeing comments like that.  I find it sadly funny that the straight male LI thread has almost none of that attitude.

I dunno. I can't do anything about it.

Devils advocate mode. Maybe they come in because everytime a romance thread related to heterosexuality or started by a straight male poster, the thread is instantly flooded with non constructive posts, snark and condescending attitudes and gets shut down in like, an hour.

That's my take.

[Grieving Natashina]

I dunno. I can't do anything about it.

Devils advocate mode. Maybe they come in because everytime a romance thread related to heterosexuality or started by a straight male poster, the thread is instantly flooded with non constructive posts, snark and condescending attitudes and gets shut down in like, an hour.

That's my take.

<glances over at the current straight male LI thread at 43 pages mostly on topic>  Well, that's certainly not the case here.    For threads like the poster that was obsessed with Cassandra, this can happen.  Usually having someone spam, "Cass looks like a man" (which he did one night and I'm leaving the extra language out of it,) will lead to a mockery and a swift shut down.    If the conversation is productive and the posters are civil, it can last as long as any other thread does.  

 

I think some folks are simply weirded out by something they can't understand.  For a lot of people, asexuality or demisexuality is beyond their scope of understanding.  I don't claim to completely understand it either, but I like reacting with an open mind and open heart rather than just go, "You're wasting you time."  Besides, I try to support as many different representation threads and ideas as I can.  The same old has gotten boring, and frankly BioWare is one of the only companies with a party system willing to try this character idea.

[RINNZ]

<glances over at the current straight male LI thread at 43 pages mostly on topic>  Well, that's certainly not the case here.    For threads like the poster that was obsessed with Cassandra, this can happen.  Usually having someone spam, "Cass looks like a man" (which he did one night and I'm leaving the extra language out of it,) will lead to a mockery and a swift shut down.    If the conversation is productive and the posters are civil, it can last as long as any other thread does.  
 
I think some folks are simply weirded out by something they can't understand.  For a lot of people, asexuality or demisexuality is beyond their scope of understanding.  I don't claim to completely understand it either, but I like reacting with an open mind and open heart rather than just go, "You're wasting you time."  Besides, I try to support as many different representation threads and ideas as I can.  The same old has gotten boring, and frankly BioWare is one of the only companies with a party system willing to try this character idea.

See, I KNEW that would bite me in the ass. The reason I didn't mention that one was because I couldn't remember if that person was straight or not. Matter of fact, I haven't been in there in quiet some time.

[Grieving Natashina]

See, I KNEW that would bite me in the ass. The reason I didn't mention that one was because I couldn't remember if that person was straight or not. Matter of fact, I haven't been in there in quiet some time.

It's a thread for straight male LIs, with some other ideas thrown in.  The sexual preference of the OP has little to do with it, because I think that's beside the point.  I consider it no different than this thread or the gay KISA thread.  If someone has an idea or a request, and isn't a jackass about it, I find myself throwing in some support.  I'm fine with a more variety for straight male characters next time, due to two brunettes with pro-Chantry leanings as the choices.  

 

 It's the threads that start with, "I'M A STRAIGHT GUY AND MY OPTIONS LOOK LIKE MEN!  BIOWARE IS CATERING TO THE UGLY FEMINISTS" that gets flamed.  This person in the active thread, who did start on a slightly shaky foot, started a thread specifically to ask for more of a variety in the romances for straight male PCs for the next game.  They have been very open to ideas, and receptive to feedback.  Even takes some constructive criticism well too.  They've asked some questions with an open mind.  They didn't feel the need to declare that the LIs were ugly, nor any such nonsense like stating that there was "too many" LGBT+ romances with every other post.  The person was civil and got responded to in kind. 

 

There's almost no fighting, no serious flaming and not much off-topic save the random goofiness that can affect all of us on the forums from time to time.  

[Seraphim24]

I think some folks are simply weirded out by something they can't understand.  For a lot of people, asexuality or demisexuality is beyond their scope of understanding.  I don't claim to completely understand it either, but I like reacting with an open mind

 

I think for me it really just means gamer, Firefly fan, whatever, all those kinds of silly stories that combine comedy and drama and so on, but just extremely traditional (Beauty and the Beast) when it comes to sex and sexuality. Like Firefly (or anime, or JRPGs, or even Nintendo games) is a completely different style of interaction than you see in like big Hollywood movies.

 

That's probably why I was in the gay KISA thread for awhile, it's like keep the dark streaky aspects but make it a mega level KISA at the same time (although I'm straight though).

 

I'd rather they focused more on the overall story quality than trying to include every little minority in the game.

 

You know.......................

 

I have a need for compelling restorative things in my life, which frequently don't try to squeeze every little minority in the game, in fact, they don't really deal with political issues at all.

 

I guess in that sense I have a problem with Dragon Age, but I also don't because for all the things that are fun and good to play there is something to be said for an almost equal number of things that are there for when things aren't fun that still have value.

 

I guess what I'm saying is, even if I didn't value DA (or this place) as a source of entertainment, it's still a source of interest. Some games need to be entertainment, without that, I think we would all be in serious trouble, but I'm not sure all games need to be entertaining.

 

I feel similarly about Life is Strange, it's not necessarily entertaining, but it's interesting.

 

We're still stuck in the sense that these games are presented primarily as entertainment but I think that will start changing over time.

[Gamedam Meister]

https://twitter.com/...945288182341632

 

Gamedam Meister ‏@GamedamMeister

@Mike_Laidlaw I was just curious. Since Bioware has been open to exploring sexualities, has the thought of a demisexual character come up?

 

Mike Laidlaw @Mike_Laidlaw 

@GamedamMeister I don’t actually know what that is, so not to me.

 

Gamedam Meister ‏@GamedamMeister

@Mike_Laidlaw Thank you for answering.

Here's a thread on the BSN about it if you are curious: 

http://forum.bioware...-bioware-games/…

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

https://twitter.com/...945288182341632

 

Gamedam Meister ‏@GamedamMeister

@Mike_Laidlaw I was just curious. Since Bioware has been open to exploring sexualities, has the thought of a demisexual character come up?

 

Mike Laidlaw @Mike_Laidlaw 

@GamedamMeister I don’t actually know what that is, so not to me.

 

Gamedam Meister ‏@GamedamMeister

@Mike_Laidlaw Thank you for answering.

Here's a thread on the BSN about it if you are curious: 

http://forum.bioware...-bioware-games/…

 

I can't say that's not disheartening, but thank you for asking Gamedam Meister. 

[Saphiron123]

Ugh, this is an argument that needs to die a horrible death.

The term "demisexual" is a very recent one, it's true. I've heard a couple stories as to where it was first used, but let's assume for the sake of argument that it was Tumblr. It could have been, I'm not sure. But the truth is that it doesn't matter where the term came from, because it's just a label for something that was already there. People were demisexual before there was a word for it. People were asexual before there was a word for it. The hard thing to understand about any of the LGBT+ community is that it's very different than race in that it's difficult to impossible to look at someone and know what their orientation is. Sometimes it's difficult to impossible to know what YOUR orientation is. And that's why being able to put a word to it is important. Because if you have a word for it, then if someone else identifies as the same thing you no longer feel like you're alone. Primarily because of the internet it's now possible to get in contact with other people who identify like you do and work through your feelings and issues to discover who you really are. Did the term "demisexual" come about because of the internet? Yes. But that's not a bad thing...it's a good thing. Why anyone would ever say otherwise when just HAVING a term for it has helped people figure out who they are is beyond me.

I once saw a woman on tumblr unironically argue for mayonnaise as a non-binary gender. It's getting a bit out of hand. The world has men, and it has women (well, and hermaphrodites and people who have genetic disorders I suppose). Men and women are attracted to men and/or to women. Sex drive and interest in sex isn't a gender, it's a sex drive. Some have a strong one, some are basically indifferent. Some physically enjoy sex, others do not.

It's simpler then the tumblr crowd makes it out to be. No such thing as a dragonkin (that would be young confusion), mayonnaise isn't a non-binary gender, we can convince ourselves to identify with anything but in the end you have a very basic set of possibilities on the table. We're human, we have chromosomes, we have sexual preferences and sexual drives.

[KaiserShep]

Wait. Mayonnaise? The frak is happening?

[Toasted Llama]

Wait. Mayonnaise? The frak is happening?

Transtrending, as some people like to call it. Thinking up genders just so that one can throw themselves into a minority group and get bonus pity points. That said, by no means am I trying to say genders beyond man/woman don't exist, just that one's gender is placed somewhere on a triangle of 3 poles: none, masculine and feminine. That does not include Mayonnaise.

As far as demisexuality is concerned, I already herp-derped my opinion on demisexuality in a previous post. OP might recognize me, hai! My own opinion has shifted slightly though and I like to see it as the axis idea that was mentioned earlier in this thread, with gender orientation determined on the x and type of attraction determined on the y.

Holding that perspective I think in theory it's great of Bioware were to feature asexual and demisexual romances, but I'm afraid you're going to get issues as most sexual individuals can't get into a relationship with an asexual individual unless there's a compromise (and not many people are willing to compromise I can tell you that from personal experience) and I don't think there's enough resources to represent every sexuality properly.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is...

Instead of getting "out of the two heterosexual male gamer options, all we got was Cassandra who looks like a dude and Josephine, who is too disney-esque", you're going to get "out of the two heterosexual male gamer options, one is demisexual and the other is asexual, why is there no sexual option?" and this is actually a valid problem.

[Seraphim24]

Transtrending, as some people like to call it. Thinking up genders just so that one can throw themselves into a minority group and get bonus pity points. That said, by no means am I trying to say genders beyond man/woman don't exist, just that one's gender is placed somewhere on a triangle of 3 poles: none, masculine and feminine. That does not include Mayonnaise.

As far as demisexuality is concerned, I already herp-derped my opinion on demisexuality in a previous post. OP might recognize me, hai! My own opinion has shifted slightly though and I like to see it as the axis idea that was mentioned earlier in this thread, with gender orientation determined on the x and type of attraction determined on the y.

Holding that perspective I think in theory it's great of Bioware were to feature asexual and demisexual romances, but I'm afraid you're going to get issues as most sexual individuals can't get into a relationship with an asexual individual unless there's a compromise (and not many people are willing to compromise I can tell you that from personal experience) and I don't think there's enough resources to represent every sexuality properly.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is...

Instead of getting "out of the two heterosexual male gamer options, all we got was Cassandra who looks like a dude and Josephine, who is too disney-esque", you're going to get "out of the two heterosexual male gamer options, one is demisexual and the other is asexual, why is there no sexual option?" and this is actually a valid problem.

 

Demisexual is sexual, just rarely, problem solved.

 

If you are suggesting somehow that people who give it up rarely are often forced to compromise, I would agree, but in my experience that's from the perspective of the demisexual person, the more promiscuous, sexual heterosexual male gamer or whatever tends to desire the more chaste types, not the other way around.

 

Heck even someone like Josephine (that I don't really see as demisexual anyway) who isn't even a companion is probably pretty freaking popular.

 

Edit: To confirm, a quick scan of youtube that Josephine's full romance is the most popular by far in terms of views,  etc.

[Toasted Llama]

Demisexual is sexual, just rarely, problem solved.

 

If you are suggesting somehow that people who give it up rarely are often forced to compromise, I would agree, but in my experience that's the other, more promiscuous side that tends to desire the more chaste types, not the other way around.

.... wait what? ... what is--- I don't even--

Please clarify your point. Because I know from personal experience that sexual people need to have their sexual desires fulfilled or otherwise they cannot be in a relationship. Even if someone is demisexual and not just asexual, that's still a problem, as with some sexual individuals there is either a timelimit or they can't "romantically" love someone unless that love is "solidified" by the means of sex. The asexual or demisexual person HAS to compromise if they want to be in a relationship with a sexual person. But forcing them to compromise in a romance in a video game is (or can be seen as) erasure.

[Seraphim24]

.... wait what? ... what is--- I don't even--

Please clarify your point. Because I know from personal experience that sexual people need to have their sexual desires fulfilled or otherwise they cannot be in a relationship. Even if someone is demisexual and not just asexual, that's still a problem, as with some sexual individuals there is either a timelimit or they can't "romantically" love someone unless that love is "solidified" by the means of sex. The asexual or demisexual person HAS to compromise if they want to be in a relationship with a sexual person. But forcing them to compromise in a romance in a video game is (or can be seen as) erasure.

 

Obviously, and I said the person that's compromising is a demisexual person, the sexual people will be in the relationship with the demisexual person and they will tolerate that person's indiscretions because presumably they offer something else. I also know this from personal experience.

 

I'm simply saying you put this "sexual" person in front of a group of people, and put a relatively chaste (but not completely asexual person) person in front of the same group of people, most people prefer the latter, assuming everything else about them is the same.

 

That's important because it tells you what people would ideally like to see, which in this case is apparently someone like Josephine, not a hypersexual person or whatever.

 

The fact that people would have to strain to meet a character's standards or expectations is fine by me, no sense putting your characters in reach when you can give them that unattainable quality.

[Toasted Llama]

Obviously, and I said the person that's compromising is a demisexual person, the sexual people will be in the relationship with the demisexual person and they will tolerate that person's indiscretions because presumably they offer something else. I also know this from personal experience.

 

I'm simply saying you put this "sexual" person in front of a group of people, and put a relatively chaste (but not completely asexual person) person in front of the same group of people, most people prefer the latter, assuming everything else about them is the same.

 

That's important because it tells you what people would ideally like to see, which in this case is apparently someone like Josephine, not a hypersexual person or whatever.

I either really don't get your point or you're really not grasping this at all.

First of all: Cassandra was preferred way more than Josephine. Plus I don't even think Josephine was demisexual? Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but she was explicitly stated as bisexual.

Second of all: Sexual people (the majority of the human population, by the way...) would never prefer a demisexual person over a sexual person if personalities are put aside, as sexual people obviously fit better with other sexual people, their sexual desires sync perfectly.

[bondari reloads.]

Obviously, and I said the person that's compromising is a demisexual person, the sexual people will be in the relationship with the demisexual person and they will tolerate that person's indiscretions because presumably they offer something else. I also know this from personal experience.
 
I'm simply saying you put this "sexual" person in front of a group of people, and put a relatively chaste (but not completely asexual person) person in front of the same group of people, most people prefer the latter, assuming everything else about them is the same.
 
That's important because it tells you what people would ideally like to see, which in this case is apparently someone like Josephine, not a hypersexual person or whatever.
 
The fact that people would have to strain to meet a character's standards or expectations is fine by me, no sense putting your characters in reach when you can give them that unattainable quality.

Who is "they"? What indiscretions? Is there a popularity contest between sexualities? Why can a person only be " attained" through sex?
Josephine is boring as hell imo. But she's not a demisexual I think.

[Seraphim24]

I either really don't get your point or you're really not grasping this at all.

First of all: Cassandra was preferred way more than Josephine. Plus I don't even think Josephine was demisexual? Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but she was explicitly stated as bisexual.

Second of all: Sexual people (the majority of the human population, by the way...) would never prefer a demisexual person over a sexual person if personalities are put aside, as sexual people obviously fit better with other sexual people, their sexual desires sync perfectly.

 

I just checked, I don't know how accurate youtube is but yeah Josephine had like 600k and Cassandra was at maybe 250k, plus that's considering Josephine has basically nothing else other than her purist thing going for her, she can't fight worth a damn, she doesn't have Cass's soldierly in the field credentials, but that alone is worth a lot to people apparently. Also, apparently you can be demi bisexual or any other variation, I'm straight so I can't say much on that topic.

 

Again though experience says quite the opposite, although it's definitely true that people are all searching for something quite specific at times. For example, I doubt most gamers or whatever would fit in well with Taylor Swift or whoever, just personality wise they're so far apart. But I mean where is your never statistic coming from anyway? Here is one conversation in my life from someone who slept around a lot to me "When a person doesn't give it up, it makes you want it more." I don't really know how it can be any more clear than that.

 

I must confess as someone who doesn't sleep around I really don't have any sense of what it must be like, I just as well assumed that people who do so are having fun and that's great for them, but if you insist on having this discussion (As Llama did), I don't see the logic of putting the demis on the chopping block.

 

Who is "they"? What indiscretions? Is there a popularity contest between sexualities? Why can a person only be " attained" through sex?
Josephine is boring as hell imo. But she's not a demisexual I think.

 

I didn't bring up the popularity contest, I was reporting on the results of a popularity contest in all the youtube videos, Josephine is winning, period. Llama was suggesting for some reason that her brand of sexuality should be cut because it wouldn't be desirable or fraustrating to "sexual" gamers or something which didn't make sense in light of all the data suggesting the complete opposite.

 

it reminds me vaguely of the people saying gamers don't want to see strong female characters or something and yet Tomb Raider sold like 5.8 million or something, it just doesn't hold up in terms of the facts, or League of Legends which has tons of female characters for people to play.

[Toasted Llama]

I just checked, I don't know how accurate youtube is but yeah Josephine had like 600k and Cassandra was at maybe 250k, plus that's considering Josephine has basically nothing else other than her purist thing going for her, she can't fight worth a damn, she doesn't have Cass's soldierly in the field credentials, but that alone is worth a lot to people apparently. Also, apparently you can be demi bisexual or any other variation, I'm straight so I can't say much on that topic.

http://forum.bioware...nce-vote-share/

http://strawpoll.me/3156631/r
Youtube views mean diddly squat because it's not uncommon for people to look up content they missed on youtube. Plus, Josephine is bisexual and therefore could also simply be benefitting from the fact that she's available to more people. As in: both genders.

 

Again though experience says quite the opposite, although it's definitely true that people are all searching for something quite specific at times. For example, I doubt most gamers or whatever would fit in well with Taylor Swift or whoever, just personality wise they're so far apart. But I mean where is your never statistic coming from anyway? Here is one conversation in my life from someone who slept around a lot to me "When a person doesn't give it up, it makes you want it more." I don't really know how it can be any more clear than that.

As far as your anecdote goes about that conversation with person who slept around a lot - I have my own experiences that say the complete opposite, but because I'm not going to go into my private life, so you're just going to have to take my word for it.

People have expectations in a relationship; when these expectations aren't met in a reasonable time frame (that time frame CAN vary from person to person), they move on because the relationship doesn't work out for them. When in the early lovey-dovey stage, many sexual people have desires and want these desires to be fulfilled. This is why many sexual people aren't compatible with a demisexual person, personalities aside.

 

Llama was suggesting for some reason that her brand of sexuality should be cut because it wouldn't be desirable or fraustrating to "sexual" gamers or something which didn't make sense in light of all the data suggesting the complete opposite.

You're really twisting my words here to hilariously ridiculous extremes, but okay. If that makes you sleep at night.

Also "her brand of sexuality"? Wot?

[bondari reloads.]

Llama, your signature is really appropriate right now.

I'm still confused as to whether you Kefka argue for or against a demisexual character? For I think it could be a very powerful characterization device if sensibly executed. The Weekeses (?) could make that happen.

[daveliam]

Yeah, the argument that Josephine's romance is the most popular based on YouTube views is pretty weak.  My gut is that she has the most YouTube views because she's one of the least popular romances.  I know that I've never watched the three romances that I've completed in-game on YouTube (Dorian, Bull, and Blackwall).  I have watched Cullen and Josephine on YouTube, though, and that's because I never intend to actually play them.

[Grieving Natashina]

Yeah, the argument that Josephine's romance is the most popular based on YouTube views is pretty weak.  My gut is that she has the most YouTube views because she's one of the least popular romances.  I know that I've never watched the three romances that I've completed in-game on YouTube (Dorian, Bull, and Blackwall).  I have watched Cullen and Josephine on YouTube, though, and that's because I never intend to actually play them.

Forgive the offtopic, but out of curiosity, are you going to roll up a female elf for the Solas romance?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Basically, what I'm trying to say is...

Instead of getting "out of the two heterosexual male gamer options, all we got was Cassandra who looks like a dude and Josephine, who is too disney-esque", you're going to get "out of the two heterosexual male gamer options, one is demisexual and the other is asexual, why is there no sexual option?" and this is actually a valid problem.

Well, chances are that Bioware would not have both an asexual and demisexual be the two options for a certain orientation because they like to provide options for players. It would be sort of like now, where they would have one "regular" Bioware romance, as in has a sex scene, and one "irregular" Bioware romance, as in not having a sex scene and/or being a demisexual or asexual romance. 

[Toasted Llama]

Well, chances are that Bioware would not have both an asexual and demisexual be the two options for a certain orientation because they like to provide options for players. It would be sort of like now, where they would have one "regular" Bioware romance, as in has a sex scene, and one "irregular" Bioware romance, as in not having a sex scene and/or being a demisexual or asexual romance. 

Hmm... I suppose that could work, though it does feel like that would still be unfair to demisexual/asexual individuals. (like the lesbian/gay and the bisexual/pansexual romance being lumped together like in DA:O) Although I guess it's still better than nothing.