1942 réponses à ce sujet

[XMissWooX]

Instead of getting "out of the two heterosexual male gamer options, all we got was Cassandra who looks like a dude and Josephine, who is too disney-esque", you're going to get "out of the two heterosexual male gamer options, one is demisexual and the other is asexual, why is there no sexual option?" and this is actually a valid problem.

Out of curiosity, are people truly all that bothered by romances which don't feature sex scenes?
I know I appreciate sex scenes because they offer extra content with my chosen LI. I couldn't care less whether that content was sexual or not, however.

[berelinde]

Out of curiosity, are people truly all that bothered by romances which don't feature sex scenes?
I know I appreciate sex scenes because they offer extra content with my chosen LI. I couldn't care less whether that content was sexual or not, however.

Demisexual people do have sexual feelings once they feel emotionally intimate with the object of those feelings, so having demisexual characters would not preclude sex scenes.

 

The thing about demisexuality is that the word is not part of Dragon Age's lexicon. None of the modern words containing "sexual" are. Writers can portray heterosexuality, homosexuality, pansexuality, and asexuality by including scenes where LI's are only interested in a particular gender and by introducing characters who state that love doesn't depend on plumbing, or who are not interested in physical intimacy at all. How would a writer convey that a particular character was demisexual without using the word? Have them say "I've never felt this way about anyone before"? They all say that. Yeah, I suppose you could have them go into explanations, but that could become pedantic very quickly. What would conversation with a demisexual character look like?

 

Edit: To my surprise, I found that I really enjoyed Josephine's romance. It got off to a really, really slow start and I almost threw in the towel long before her personal quest started, but once it did get moving, it was great. So for me, Josephine's romance was a success, and Solas's romance was a failure. The problem with Solas was that I never felt any connection with him. He was only comfortable being intimate in the Fade, and I really missed the ability to kiss him whenever. It would have made me feel more connected to the character. Josephine's garden scenes were great. So good, in fact, that I didn't mind the lack of a sex scene in the slightest.

Modifié par berelinde, 26 mai 2015 - 01:15 .

[Toasted Llama]

Out of curiosity, are people truly all that bothered by romances which don't feature sex scenes?
I know I appreciate sex scenes because they offer extra content with my chosen LI. I couldn't care less whether that content was sexual or not, however.

Well... yes. Similarily people don't romance IB because of the sub/dom part. No implication of sexual contact may be too "prude" for some people or may make the romance arc too bland uninteresting all together.

People are bothered by the weirdest things in romances (like someone's jawline >_>), as is evident by the many threads on the BSN and the many complaints scattered on YT videos, reviews and what not.

[Laughing_Man]

Edit: To my surprise, I found that I really enjoyed Josephine's romance. It got off to a really, really slow start and I almost threw in the towel long before her personal quest started, but once it did get moving, it was great. So for me, Josephine's romance was a success, and Solas's romance was a failure.

 

For me it was the opposite, started somewhat interested, and just lost interest halfway in. (I knew about the "no sex scene" thing going in, and that didn't really bothered me.) The over-use of the "Josephine-Kissing-With-One-Leg-Up" animation also grated on my nerves.

 

Out of curiosity, are people truly all that bothered by romances which don't feature sex scenes?
I know I appreciate sex scenes because they offer extra content with my chosen LI. I couldn't care less whether that content was sexual or not, however.

 

Depends. If the game had no sex scenes at all? I wouldn't be bothered by it. Otherwise, I would simply have to ask: Why not have a sex scene?

 

If it was due to exhausting political reasons, or making some kind of a gender / sexuality related statement, I would simply move to the other romance option unless the first seemed very appealing on its own merits. Because I hate political crusading in my entertainment.

 

I guess it's similar to the original topic somewhat. And the same as real-life in a way: Would you pursue a long-term romantic relationship with someone who has no interest in sexual activities assuming that you have the interest?

 

I would be honest and say that simply no, I wouldn't be interested, no matter how amazing the other person is, because it would frustrate me to no end, and that is a good way to create a living-hell for both sides in any relationship.

 

Could I role-play someone who is interested in this type of romance? Maybe, but not easily. I wouldn't really be able to "feel" it.

I might play through it for the novelty of it, but that's about it.

[Seraphim24]

http://forum.bioware...nce-vote-share/

http://strawpoll.me/3156631/r
Youtube views mean diddly squat because it's not uncommon for people to look up content they missed on youtube. Plus, Josephine is bisexual and therefore could also simply be benefitting from the fact that she's available to more people. As in: both genders.

 

As far as your anecdote goes about that conversation with person who slept around a lot - I have my own experiences that say the complete opposite, but because I'm not going to go into my private life, so you're just going to have to take my word for it.

People have expectations in a relationship; when these expectations aren't met in a reasonable time frame (that time frame CAN vary from person to person), they move on because the relationship doesn't work out for them. When in the early lovey-dovey stage, many sexual people have desires and want these desires to be fulfilled. This is why many sexual people aren't compatible with a demisexual person, personalities aside.

 

You're really twisting my words here to hilariously ridiculous extremes, but okay. If that makes you sleep at night.

Also "her brand of sexuality"? Wot?

 

Yeah those polls are a tiny fraction of a fraction of a sample of people who play the games generally (in the hundreds of thousands/millions on YT)

 

As far as the anecdote (which for some reason you don't want to share, even though I just did) goes people can say whatever they want but I know how they are going to act, and they act according to my idea and not yours 9 times out of 10.

 

I don't know who you are using as an example of a "demisexual" person but I'd also say just because someone throws a label around doesn't make it  I've seen people who identify as hardcore sadomasochists that strike me as more "demisexual" oriented than self-identified asexuals or whatever. If someone is genuinely sort of monogamous and kind of chaste with their sexuality that is invariably a highly desirable quality in a person, I've seen that play out millions of times with 100% accuracy, I've pretty much never once seen it go the other way around, all other things taken as equal.

 

Anyway I'm pretty sure we're never going to see eye to eye here.

 

Yeah, the argument that Josephine's romance is the most popular based on YouTube views is pretty weak.  My gut is that she has the most YouTube views because she's one of the least popular romances.  I know that I've never watched the three romances that I've completed in-game on YouTube (Dorian, Bull, and Blackwall).  I have watched Cullen and Josephine on YouTube, though, and that's because I never intend to actually play them.

 

Uh, least popular, because most views................................................ and compared to your non-existent evidence?

 

Llama, your signature is really appropriate right now.

I'm still confused as to whether you Kefka argue for or against a demisexual character? For I think it could be a very powerful characterization device if sensibly executed. The Weekeses (?) could make that happen.

 

I don't think anyone in Bioware can ever make one because none of them are one (or close to one) personally, I'm more just interested in discussing the ideas to be quite honest, it's beyond their ken, completely.

[daveliam]

Uh, least popular, because most views................................................ and compared to your non-existent evidence?

 

Your argument makes no sense to me.  If so many people have played Josephine's romance, why would they watch it on YouTube?  Sure some people will watch content that they've played and enjoyed.  But I don't think that's the main reason for watching these scenes on YouTube.  Most people watch content on YouTube that they didn't choose to play.  That would mean that there would be an inverse relationship between number of YouTube views and popularity.  Unless you mean the most 'popular' in terms of which one is the most popular on YouTube, then your argument is sound.  But to take YouTube views and try to turn that into evidence about gameplay choices.......not convincing at all.  Since you are a fan of "evidence", then go ahead a provide evidence that there is a relationship between YouTube views and in-game popularity of choices. 

[Seraphim24]

Your argument makes no sense to me.  If so many people have played Josephine's romance, why would they watch it on YouTube?  Most people watch content on YouTube that they didn't choose to play.  That would mean that there would be an inverse relationship between number of YouTube views and popularity.  Unless you mean the most 'popular' in terms of which one is the most popular on YouTube, then your argument is sound.  But to take YouTube views and try to turn that into evidence about gameplay choices.......not convincing at all.  Since you are a fan of "evidence", then go ahead a provide evidence that there is a relationship between YouTube views and in-game popularity of choices. 

 

Yeah every single comment on the first page (save maybe 1) is from people who have obviously played through her campaign.

 

Here see for yourself

 

 

You can actually see the exact same thing played out from before, scrolling down somewhat, someone goes

 

"What the ***?! No sex scene!? *******"

 

I'm 100% ok with that kind of reaction, based on the logic I suggested in other contexts.

[daveliam]

Yeah every single comment on the first page (save maybe 1) is from people who have obviously played through her campaign.

 

Here see for yourself

 

 

Nope.  Try again.

 

I just looked and didn't see a single comment that indicated that anyone other than the OP actually played that romance.  In fact, numerous people were confused about the lack of a sex scene or asking clarifying questions (suggesting that they hadn't seen that content before).  And a bunch of people just commented on the game in general or Otranto.  There were 1 or 2 amibiguous comments that might have been from people who played it.  But certainly not the evidence you claimed it was. 

[Seraphim24]

Nope.  Try again.

 

I just looked and didn't see a single comment that indicated that anyone other than the OP actually played that romance.  In fact, numerous people were confused about the lack of a sex scene or asking clarifying questions (suggesting that they hadn't seen that content before).  And a bunch of people just commented on the game in general or Otranto.  There were 1 or 2 amibiguous comments that might have been from people who played it.  But certainly not the evidence you claimed it was. 

 

First comment 3 posts in about the thing itself "How do you get to the next part, I just finished giving her the crest," along with 3 more people obviously playing through her part.

 

Any more lack of effort on your part and I'm just going to ignore you what are you even doing here anyway? I know Hanako said anyone can be here, (and it's his thread) so post away I guess but what could you possibly want with the demisexuals anyway?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Demisexual people do have sexual feelings once they feel emotionally intimate with the object of those feelings, so having demisexual characters would not preclude sex scenes.

 

The thing about demisexuality is that the word is not part of Dragon Age's lexicon. None of the modern words containing "sexual" are. Writers can portray heterosexuality, homosexuality, pansexuality, and asexuality by including scenes where LI's are only interested in a particular gender and by introducing characters who state that love doesn't depend on plumbing, or who are not interested in physical intimacy at all. How would a writer convey that a particular character was demisexual without using the word? Have them say "I've never felt this way about anyone before"? They all say that. Yeah, I suppose you could have them go into explanations, but that could become pedantic very quickly. What would conversation with a demisexual character look like?

Yeah, as said before for Dragon Age the confirmation would have to be from a meta standpoint, like how Patrick Weekes did with The Iron Bull being pansexual. As for a DA conversation, I reposted a pretty good possible example on the first page of the thread somewhere. 

 

For other Bioware games, since this thread isn't only for Dragon Age, it can be easier since it would be part of the lexicon. Mass Effect for example is our future, so it easily exists. The new IP is unknown at this point, but if the sexualities are actually terms then it could easily be addressed in the game by using that term. 

[daveliam]

First comment 3 posts in about the thing itself "How do you get to the next part, I just finished giving her the crest," along with 3 more people obviously playing through her part.

 

Any more lack of effort on your part and I'm just going to ignore you what are you even doing here anyway? I know Hanako said anyone can be here, (and it's his thread) so post away I guess but what could you possibly want with the demisexuals anyway?

 

Again, not strong evidence at all.  You have successfully pointed out one person who's playing her quest.  The only other person who's clearly played her quest is the person who said that they played it but didn't like it.  I'm assuming you aren't counting them.  Otherwise, there's nothing to suggest that the people watching this video have also played it.

 

I've been a supporter of Hanako's request from the very beginning.  In fact, I was one of the people who encouraged Hanako to create this thread to put the request forward.  While I'm not demisexual myself, I have no problem with these romances.  Had Josephine not been so terribly dull (in my opinion), I'd have romanced her with my female Inquisitor. 

 

My point isn't that a demisexual romance wouldn't be popular.  It might very well be.  It might not.  I think it depends more on the character and the content.  However, your claim that Josephine's romance is the most popular because it has the most YouTube views is flawed and I'm pointing that out to you.  And you're choosing to get defensive about it.  I like Josephine just fine (despite being boring), but I think she's far from the most popular romance.  In fact, I don't even think she's the most female romance, let alone overall.  And YouTube views don't convince me otherwise, particularly when there's virtually no evidence to support your claim. 

[berelinde]

Regarding YouTube views as a measure of a romance's popularity, I have to agree with those who have stated that a lot of the people who are watching the videos are those who aren't already sold on the romance. I never watched any of the Blackwall romance videos because I planned to play it and did not want to be spoiled. Same deal with Dorian, Cullen, Solas, and Cassandra. I really, really should have watched Solas's videos before investing a hundred hours or so in my Solas romancer's game, but I didn't. Anyway, after that, I started watching the videos before deciding whether to play the romance or not. I watched videos for Iron Bull, Josephine, and Sera, and since then, I've romanced Iron Bull and Josephine. I'm still on the fence about Sera, so I may watch them all again to make up my mind.

 

But the videos are good for one thing. If it weren't for the videos, I would never have bothered with Josephine's romance. She was OK, but I wasn't in raptures over her. But I liked the romance videos, so I decided to have a go at it, and I'm glad I did. Is she my favorite? No. There's a 3-way tie for that honor (Dorian, Cullen, and Blackwall). But I did play it, and I do enjoy it.

[Andraste_Reborn]

I don't even think she's the most female romance

 

I think you accidentally a word there. (Unless you are secretly a certain troll back to tell us that Josephine looks like a man, which I doubt .)

 

I don't think that most of the people who hang out in this thread are demisexual or ace themselves. I'm certainly not - but I'm interested in seeing more diverse characters and relationships in future BioWare games, and I don't see any reason they can't put in demi and ace characters the say way they've previously put in gay, bisexual, pansexual and trans characters. I support all of those things being there even though I'm not any of those either.

 

(Also, I have this fantasy that they might invent an aromantic character some day. That would be neat.)

[AlanC9]

Regarding YouTube views as a measure of a romance's popularity, I have to agree with those who have stated that a lot of the people who are watching the videos are those who aren't already sold on the romance. I never watched any of the Blackwall romance videos because I planned to play it and did not want to be spoiled. Same deal with Dorian, Cullen, Solas, and Cassandra. I really, really should have watched Solas's videos before investing a hundred hours or so in my Solas romancer's game, but I didn't. Anyway, after that, I started watching the videos before deciding whether to play the romance or not. I watched videos for Iron Bull, Josephine, and Sera, and since then, I've romanced Iron Bull and Josephine. I'm still on the fence about Sera, so I may watch them all again to make up my mind.
 
But the videos are good for one thing. If it weren't for the videos, I would never have bothered with Josephine's romance. She was OK, but I wasn't in raptures over her. But I liked the romance videos, so I decided to have a go at it, and I'm glad I did. Is she my favorite? No. There's a 3-way tie for that honor (Dorian, Cullen, and Blackwall). But I did play it, and I do enjoy it.

I'm somewhat similar. The only reasons I have to watch a romance video is that I know I'm never gonna play it, or that it's come up in a thread like this. So counting views from people like me measures disinterest, not interest.

[daveliam]

I think you accidentally a word there. (Unless you are secretly a certain troll back to tell us that Josephine looks like a man, which I doubt .)

 

HA!  Nope.  Not one of the 'Josephine is a man' peeps, as you know.  Although now I'm tempted to change my profile pic to one of Josephine 'improved' by being turned into a 80's hair metal drummer......

 

I just meant that, in response to her being the most popular overall romance, I don't think she's even the most popular female romance since I suspect Cassandra is more popular than Josephine (based on comments I've seen about her on numerous message boards and both her 'returning character' status and companion status).  And, I suspect if we look at overall popularity, I'd guess that Cullen and Solas are almost certainly more popular than her as well (and very possibly Dorian as well).  But I think this is a bit off topic.  I was trying to point out that there was some flawed logic happening in the argument. 

[Saphiron123]

I'd personally rather see bioware stop trying to please absolutely everyone and focus on crafting a good story.

There are plenty of dating simulators out there, and while romances are important to dragon age, the core story is more important.

Bioware is very accepting and inclusive as it is, but it's time for them to get back to writing really great stories.

[In Exile]

Out of curiosity, are people truly all that bothered by romances which don't feature sex scenes?
I know I appreciate sex scenes because they offer extra content with my chosen LI. I couldn't care less whether that content was sexual or not, however.

I think all sex scenes in videogames are ridiculous. There's only one so far that I think was well done and even that one I think is a little silly (Geralt x Triss in TW2). I'd be happy if they were all cut honestly.

I should add that I think sex can absolutely have a powerful narrative purpose. But we don't get to use it that way. It's just one generic scene. I can give an example of what I mean.

[In Exile]

For me it was the opposite, started somewhat interested, and just lost interest halfway in. (I knew about the "no sex scene" thing going in, and that didn't really bothered me.) The over-use of the "Josephine-Kissing-With-One-Leg-Up" animation also grated on my nerves.

That leg thing was hilarious. I'm not sure if the person who worked on the cinematics knows what that was used to suggest but ...

Anyway that type of kiss very much suggests sex scenes.

[AresKeith]

That leg thing was hilarious. I'm not sure if the person who worked on the cinematics knows what that was used to suggest but ...

Anyway that type of kiss very much suggests sex scenes.

 

Who knows maybe they did have sex after that kiss

 

That's what the people behind Josie's romance wanted, for players to interpret it themselves 

[herkles]

Who knows maybe they did have sex after that kiss

 

That's what the people behind Josie's romance wanted, for players to interpret it themselves 

 

Personally, I rather see them in bed sleeping or waking up, alla cullen. I view sex as a good thing, especially between people whom love each other. I don't mind it, since I also like the more romantic stuff with her romance. Though 2 people in love should be able to have sex without it being viewed as a negative thing. 

 

Anyways, one thing that I think would have been better for Josephine's storyline is that when the assassins are after her, that we have to deal with them, or see their bodies not be told about them.  We see something rather similar with bull's quest if he is declared Talvasoth, but you see the assassins. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I've been a supporter of Hanako's request from the very beginning.  In fact, I was one of the people who encouraged Hanako to create this thread to put the request forward.

To which I am thankful.

 

That leg thing was hilarious. I'm not sure if the person who worked on the cinematics knows what that was used to suggest but ...

Anyway that type of kiss very much suggests sex scenes.

I always heard it was both a way to keep balance and a sign of trust to the other partner by trusting the partner to keep them upright. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Anyways, one thing that I think would have been better for Josephine's storyline is that when the assassins are after her, that we have to deal with them, or see their bodies not be told about them.  We see something rather similar with bull's quest if he is declared Talvasoth, but you see the assassins. 

We do. During the quest line, there is an assassin lying dead in Josephine's office. They infiltrated by pretending to be part of the Inquisition and was stopped by one of Leliana's agents whom Leliana assigned as a bodyguard for Josephine. 

[Seraphim24]

Again, not strong evidence at all.  You have successfully pointed out one person who's playing her quest.  The only other person who's clearly played her quest is the person who said that they played it but didn't like it.  I'm assuming you aren't counting them.  Otherwise, there's nothing to suggest that the people watching this video have also played it.

 

I've been a supporter of Hanako's request from the very beginning.  In fact, I was one of the people who encouraged Hanako to create this thread to put the request forward.  While I'm not demisexual myself, I have no problem with these romances.  Had Josephine not been so terribly dull (in my opinion), I'd have romanced her with my female Inquisitor. 

 

My point isn't that a demisexual romance wouldn't be popular.  It might very well be.  It might not.  I think it depends more on the character and the content.  However, your claim that Josephine's romance is the most popular because it has the most YouTube views is flawed and I'm pointing that out to you.  And you're choosing to get defensive about it.  I like Josephine just fine (despite being boring), but I think she's far from the most popular romance.  In fact, I don't even think she's the most female romance, let alone overall.  And YouTube views don't convince me otherwise, particularly when there's virtually no evidence to support your claim. 

 

So to support the cause to have demisexuality in games you decided to strain all you could to find ways to side with the person who thinks demisexuality is too complex or irritating to "sexual" gamers and thus it should not be included in the game?

 

You really need to read more before you post, because those two things contradict each other 100%.

 

You could of picked on Llama's his (her?) equally pulled out of nowhere argument baseless argument that gamers are sexual and will get frustrated by less sexual characters, but not you chose to needle me for some reason without even bothering to put in effort into your needling in order to weaken the concept you are supporting.

 

I could address your points more directly but your motivations just seem so brazenly contradictory I'm not sure why I should bother. I'll just say that a genuine 100% more chaste/noble/KISA/less sex motivated type of character is always extremely and overwhelmingly popular, far more than shifty sleeps with every other thing type of character, and this is universal across media and cultures.

 

A character that's the typical frisky Bioware character that suddenly has the label of "demisexual" does not count, just like Josephine doesn't really count ultimately (but is somewhat of any approximation). I have 0% confidence Bioware could ever in the rest of their entire history create a character close to what I'm looking for, it's like I said, I'm more just interested in the conversation.

[berelinde]

 I'll just say that a genuine 100% more chaste/noble/KISA/less sex motivated type of character is always extremely and overwhelmingly popular, far more than shifty sleeps with every other thing type of character, and this is universal across media and cultures.

Yeah, take a look at NWN2 Official Campaign. Casavir the paladin was so much more popular than Bad Boy Bishop... except that he wasn't. I loved Casavir. He was one of my favorite LIs ever, but I know how few people share that opinion.

 

This is going off topic, so I'll keep it short. I loathe the idea that sex and those who engage in it are evil. I like the idea that a KISA of any gender or orientation could be a sexual person. That doesn't mean that I don't support the inclusion of asexual characters! I definitely think they deserve recognition and inclusion. But I don't support the idea that a person's morality is tied to their sexuality.

[Seraphim24]

Yeah, take a look at NWN2 Official Campaign. Casavir the paladin was so much more popular than Bad Boy Bishop... except that he wasn't. I loved Casavir. He was one of my favorite LIs ever, but I know how few people share that opinion.

 

This is going off topic, so I'll keep it short. I loathe the idea that sex and those who engage in it are evil. I like the idea that a KISA of any gender or orientation could be a sexual person. That doesn't mean that I don't support the inclusion of asexual characters! I definitely think they deserve recognition and inclusion. But I don't support the idea that a person's morality is tied to their sexuality.

 

Er I'm pretty sure neither Casavir or Bishop was particularly popular, I'm not really sure how many people played NWN2 to be honest. Anyway, from what I remember Casavir has this kind of dark/grim past sprung on you sort of later in the game. I must say I liked NWN2 a fair amount, but I don't really view Casavir as that kind of character here. I was thinking pretty much exclusively of characters outside of video games, say from Disney movies or major Hollywood movies and stuff where that kind of thing is more common.

 

I think quite frankly for example that is the essence of the KISA, that they are not particularly sexual, particularly being the key word.

 

Perhaps it would be easier if I met more promiscuous people that weren't also kind of jerks, that just doesn't happen though really to be honest.