1942 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

*reads last page*

[Seraphim24]

"The rarity of someone is what makes it important or precious"? That's beginning to sound like a trophy hunt, not romance.

 

No I meant the rarity of expression.

 

A movie isn't good if the central characters just go "Hey I like you tons and the other ones all yeah me too!" And then they just have sex, like how boring is that?

 

Without any back and forth it's just dull.

 

I mean what is someone that smiles all the time anyway? It's the freaking Macys (or just shopping mall) attendant at Christmas or something that keeps nodding and smiling because they're paid to do so.

 

I think generally speaking continual smiling is associated with dishonesty and insincerity.

[berelinde]

No I said the rarity of expression.

I quoted your post and added nothing but emphasis. If your post has changed, it's because you edited it. Regardless, the observation stands.

 

Edit: No, I just re-read what you wrote, and it was exactly what I quoted.

 

Edit2: And you just added more to the last post. Nobody is saying anything about "and all the other ones, too". If you see it that way, the problem may not be with the game.

Modifié par berelinde, 27 mai 2015 - 05:08 .

[Seraphim24]

I quoted your post and added nothing but emphasis. If your post has changed, it's because you edited it. Regardless, the observation stands.

 

Haha so I did, did not mean that in the slighest, I guess I could go edit it, although to be honest I think it's fair to say people do want their partners to be rare in general. I meant to say "something."

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Okay, can this train of dialogue please stop. It has nothing to do with the topic of the thread. 

[Seraphim24]

Okay, can this train of dialogue please stop. It has nothing to do with the topic of the thread. 

 

With all respect (since it's your thread and all) I think sex (and the way people express and have it) is the core issue in this entire thread.

 

I don't really expect the conversation to linger on this particular point anyway, I myself was going to go play TW3 or something just now and who knows maybe it will be in a totally different place tomorrow.

 

I quoted your post and added nothing but emphasis. If your post has changed, it's because you edited it. Regardless, the observation stands.

 

Edit: No, I just re-read what you wrote, and it was exactly what I quoted.

 

Edit2: And you just added more to the last post. Nobody is saying anything about "and all the other ones, too". If you see it that way, the problem may not be with the game.

 

I honestly don't even know what you are saying anymore, I'll possibly try again some other time, all I said was sex seems like a great thing to kind of overdo it.. it's not a complex thing, and I'm sure (as relates to the topic) others who identify as demisexual or whatever feel similarly (it would certainty fit the theme).

[Hanako Ikezawa]

With all respect (since it's your thread and all) I think sex (and the way people express and have it) is the core issue in this entire thread.

No, it isn't. You're talking about sexual preference while demisexuality and asexuality are sexual orientations. Treating them as the same thing is one of the main problems regarding demisexuals and asexuals because some people just see them as people with a preference to abstain rather than them being actual orientations. 

[berelinde]

Maybe part of the issue is that other orientations point to a gender, who someone feels attraction to. Homosexuality, heterosexuality, bisexuality, pansexuality, asexuality, all identify an object (same, different, two, all, none). Demisexuality is real, but it doesn't identify an object. A person can be demisexual homoromantic or demisexual heteroromantic, or any combination.

[Laughing_Man]

Out of curiosity, how would a demisexual relationship work in game and be different than any other?

Because assuming that there's an emotional connection, there is also a sexual one, right?

 

"I love you, therefore I will have sex with you." - Does not sound that different (simply old-fashioned) to me than: "The sex was great. You know, I think I love you."

 

This may have weight for certain people, those that think of themselves as demisexuals, but I am not sure I would even notice the difference in game.

 

You could implement various mechanics to beat the player on the head with the "issue", but that probably will become annoying very quickly, and just cause people to "abandon ship"...

[WikipediaBrown]

That's not a compromise. That is giving one side everything they want while giving the other side nothing they want. 

Isn't demisexuality experiencing sexual attraction after getting to know someone very well ? If they were demisexual, they could have know you for a year or more in game time by the time that even comes up. All player characters  have many conversations in game with companions before they even deviate off the standard friendship path anyway. They could have become attracted to the player character by that time, correct? Thus they ask you and you have the choice to say yes I'm ready or no I am not attracted to you yet. 

Am I missing something?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Isn't demisexuality experiencing sexual attraction after getting to know someone very well ? If they were demisexual, they could have know you for a year or more in game time by the time that even comes up. All player characters  have many conversations in game with companions before they even deviate off the standard friendship path anyway. They could have become attracted to the player character by that time, correct? Thus they ask you and you have the choice to say yes I'm ready or no I am not attracted to you yet. 

Am I missing something?

That post was actually a reply to a different post, but I accidentally quoted yours. Sorry about that. 

 

No, you have a good grasp of it. 

[Lady Artifice]

I was asking for something to explain that difference in detail, also berelinde said

 

It's so simple, however, that "details" are superfluous. 

 

A monogamous relationship might might involve a lot of sexual activity, only a little, or none at all. Promiscuous and sexual have different definitions, and are therefore different things. There is the explanation you mentioned.  

 

I think this wasn't clear there but I mentioned that it's a consistent "dynamic," the female is always chaste, but the male is not remotely that way.

 

All the characters mentioned are male with the exception of Phyrne, (pretty sure) moreover they are 100% you know, not chaste, or whatever it is, so the dynamic pretty much stays the same throughout.

 

 

The quote Andraste_Reborn responded to, which does not include any mention of whether the character is male or female:

 

 

 

I could address your points more directly but your motivations just seem so brazenly contradictory I'm not sure why I should bother. I'll just say that a genuine 100% more chaste/noble/KISA/less sex motivated type of character is always extremely and overwhelmingly popular, far more than shifty sleeps with every other thing type of character, and this is universal across media and cultures.

 

 

I agreed with her that this is a grossly inaccurate statement, and provided other examples to demonstrate immensely popular "shifty, sleeps with every other thing," characters. I will not be getting into another meandering, semantics-related debate with you, especially since Hanako dislikes these discussions intruding into her thread. 

[Andraste_Reborn]

Sorry, Hanako, I will shush now.

 

(For the sake of accuracy, I should point out that my original list of popular characters who 'get around' included three women - Phryne Fisher, Faith and Chiana. That's about a third of the list. While there's still a sexual double-standard in play, some female characters break the chaste stereotype and are still popular, just like Isabela. But in any case, this is off-topic.)

 

ETA: Also, I would like it noted for the record that I physically facepalmed when I realised I had left James freakin' Bond off the list.

[Toasted Llama]

Um saying demisexuals (or less sexual people) are undesirable by pretty much anyone with a hint of sexual urge to them and this is universal is um, well, quite an attack (in addition to being inaccurate as I've stated multiple times)

 

Saying "But I support the inclusion of demisexual characters" is like putting offering to put a band aid on an arm you just sawed off.

 

As for the video game, well then why not just not represent anyone? If resources or so limited and all that, it would make sense to just ignore everyone. They don't do that, and you blew into this thread for some reason suggesting that out of all the things that should be cut, it should be demisexuality because sexual people need sex and people that don't give it up are frustrating to gamers and people, I believe quite the opposite, and also the fact that they're frustrating is a good thing in many ways honestly. I'm still not really sure what is so complicated.

No, I'm not saying demisexual people are undesireable by anyone with a slight hint of sexual urge. I'm saying that demisexual people are less compatible in a relationship with people who require physical intimacy/sex in a relationship. It's possible, but to make it work that'll require a compromise. And people who aren't willing to make this compromise are going to complain when there are only demisexual or asexual romance options available to them.

I want equal representation for everyone, but without (forcing people to) compromise. And I have concerns and questions how this is going to be executed with limited sources.

And yes, it may just be better for Bioware to not represent anyone if they can't represent everyone equally.

If you can't understand that this is my train of thought, you're just being willfully ignorant here. That's the last thing I'm going to say about this and for the rest my apologies if I'm continuing the train of dialogue, I just needed to get this off my chest for the sake of my own conscious.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

To change the subject, I had an idea of a possible character backstory for a demisexual character.

 

What if the LI in question is a friend of the protagonist by the time the events of the game start? 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I personally can't say excluding the sex scenes or any strong implication thereof would make me mildly annoyed or dissatisfied and I am pretty far from an asexual person. It's absolutely not required for a good romance plot.

Yeah. Good romance plots without sex being involved in the story have existed for millennia, so they clearly have some fanbase in the human population for that kind of romance plot to last through the ages. 

[daveliam]

To change the subject, I had an idea of a possible character backstory for a demisexual character.

 

What if the LI in question is a friend of the protagonist by the time the events of the game start? 

 

I like the idea.  My only issue with it is that I can easily see it falling into the typical JRPG formula where the hero starts with a friend (usually a twee female magic-user) who ends up being the 'female lead' by the end of the game with implied romance between the characters.  Bioware already kind of did this with Dawn Star and Imoen to a degree (although Imoen was obviously not a romance despite the tears of many fans).  I'd much rather see them turn that on it's head a bit.

 

I would rather see a Carver like rivalry that eventually turns into begrudging respect and then into romance than see a Bethany like friendship that slowly grows over time.  But that's just my personal preference. 

[berelinde]

RE: "Romance plots without sex through the ages". Examples?

[Toasted Llama]

I like the idea.  My only issue with it is that I can easily see it falling into the typical JRPG formula where the hero starts with a friend (usually a twee female magic-user) who ends up being the 'female lead' by the end of the game with implied romance between the characters.  Bioware already kind of did this with Dawn Star and Imoen to a degree (although Imoen was obviously not a romance despite the tears of many fans).  I'd much rather see them turn that on it's head a bit.

 

I would rather see a Carver like rivalry that eventually turns into begrudging respect and then into romance than see a Bethany like friendship that slowly grows over time.  But that's just my personal preference. 

Going from rivalry, then friendship and then romance also has more (impressive) growth and gives the player a more varied perspective, which is kinda cool.

I think if you have a romance option that is friends with the protagonist from the start that you'll need something like an origin story, that the player somehow gets to know the character before the main events unfold. A bit like Tamlen and Shianni from Origins, except that they'll tag along for the rest of the game.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I like the idea.  My only issue with it is that I can easily see it falling into the typical JRPG formula where the hero starts with a friend (usually a twee female magic-user) who ends up being the 'female lead' by the end of the game with implied romance between the characters.  Bioware already kind of did this with Dawn Star and Imoen to a degree (although Imoen was obviously not a romance despite the tears of many fans).  I'd much rather see them turn that on it's head a bit.

 

I would rather see a Carver like rivalry that eventually turns into begrudging respect and then into romance than see a Bethany like friendship that slowly grows over time.  But that's just my personal preference. 

Never been a fan of the rivalry system. It made no sense to me why they would adventure with you if they hated you. 

[daveliam]

Never been a fan of the rivalry system. It made no sense to me why they would adventure with you if they hated you. 

 

I don't think rivalry = hate. 

 

Sure, some of them didn't make any sense.  I will never understand why Merrill continued to be Hawke's friend after he kept the eluvian shard for himself.  And a very pro-templar Hawke should not be able to pal around with Anders at all.

 

But characters like Carver are a great example of how rivalry can be done without it being an all or nothing hate/love approach. 

[Wyvernet]

RE: "Romance plots without sex through the ages". Examples?

 

Well I don't think any of the LOTR epic romances had sex in them, unless you count the implied sex they had in order to produce a child, and what happened to Arwen in an appendix literally made me tear up. Also, a lot of romances written in the Victorian times, such as by the Bronte sisters, and also romances by Jane Austen didn't even have implied sex, I think. For example, Jane Eyre emphasised how innocent and chaste Jane was compared to the sexual and 'foreign' Bertha Mason. You'd be surprised how saucy things can get with a few well-chosen metaphors.

[Steelcan]

Well I don't think any of the LOTR epic romances had sex in them, unless you count the implied sex they had in order to produce a child, and what happened to Arwen in an appendix literally made me tear up. Also, a lot of romances written in the Victorian times, such as by the Bronte sisters, and also romances by Jane Austen didn't even have implied sex, I think. For example, Jane Eyre emphasised how innocent and chaste Jane was compared to the sexual and 'foreign' Bertha Mason. You'd be surprised how saucy things can get with a few well-chosen metaphors.

you'd be surprised how un-subtle Victorians could be in regards to sex

[WikipediaBrown]

Well I don't think any of the LOTR epic romances had sex in them, unless you count the implied sex they had in order to produce a child, and what happened to Arwen in an appendix literally made me tear up. Also, a lot of romances written in the Victorian times, such as by the Bronte sisters, and also romances by Jane Austen didn't even have implied sex, I think. For example, Jane Eyre emphasised how innocent and chaste Jane was compared to the sexual and 'foreign' Bertha Mason. You'd be surprised how saucy things can get with a few well-chosen metaphors.

Yeah...but Rochester basically screwed his way across Europe (remember the dancer who claimed that the kid was his?), keeps his wife locked up in the attic, and tries to get Jane to "stay with him" clad only in a nightgown when she "puts out his fire" in his bedroom in the middle of the night. It's only because Jane was so insistent that he even attempted to marry her and commit bigamy. Hardly the chaste romance of legend....

 

Austen also had her share of ruined women, remember wicked Wickham who promised marriage but instead just shacked up with Elizabeth's younger sister in Pride and Prejudice? Or Willoughby who knocked up Colonel Brandon's ward, and then tried to do the same with Marianne in Sense and Sensibility? There's more but I'm blanking at the moment.