1942 réponses à ce sujet

[berelinde]

Just to clarify, I'm not asking for examples because I don't believe such things exist. I was being terse because I was in a hurry, but now that I have a moment, I'll explain. I'm a modder who makes story mods, all of which feature romantic content of one kind or another, and I draw heavily upon the classics for inspiration. I'm always looking for new ways to explore the way people can interact with each other.

 

Edit: I've read a lot of the Bronte sisters' work and pretty much everything Jane Austen ever published. Also the works of Elizabeth Gaskill and a few others. Believe it or not, Gaskill, a married woman with several children, had a fine example of a platonic romance in Cranford between Miss Matty and Thomas Holbrook. Of course, she also examples of ruined women, e.g. Ruth.

Modifié par berelinde, 27 mai 2015 - 04:27 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

RE: "Romance plots without sex through the ages". Examples?

Well, one of the first examples that comes to mind is the romance fairy tale Beauty and the Beast, written in 1756. There is no sex in that story, and it is one of the most well known love stories in history, spawning dozens of remakes and adaptations. 

[Wyvernet]

My comment was basically in response to my English class going overboard and giggling over fire metaphors while the teacher was rolling her eyes and being all, 'Calm down, sometimes a tree is just a tree." Fond memories from those times. 

 

The stories written by the Bronte sisters were mainly about rude Byronic heroes and probably unhealthy relationships. However, Jane Eyre could still be regarded as a romance with a chaste heroine. I think the main heroines in Jane Austen novels also remained mostly chaste. (I'm sorry, I'm not a big lit reader. Everything I know comes from English class).

 

The point is, many romances have existed where there is only implied sex after a wedding or in the process of making a baby, whether these romances are a product of 'good girls should not have sex before marriage' or otherwise. Therefore, I think it's fine to assume that a decent romance can be made without sexual activity having occurred through the course of the game. I also very much enjoyed the option in Dorian's romance where you could take it slow. I liked the existence of that option for people who weren't comfortable with watching two video game characters rolling around in bed (but also didn't want to miss out on the romance), and also saved me from having an awkward conversation with my dad, who walked past several minutes later while I was talking to Solas.

 

Edit: Ah, so the poster wasn't looking for examples in disbelief. Sorry. Well those LOTR romances can still maybe apply.

[Grieving Natashina]

But characters like Carver are a great example of how rivalry can be done without it being an all or nothing hate/love approach. 

This is quite true.  My own young brother and I were like Carver and Hawke, but (and this isn't easy to admit,) but I was the one feeling like I was in his shadow.  Overall, that was a story that felt like it had some connections to someone's life.  

[WikipediaBrown]

Just to clarify, I'm not asking for examples because I don't believe such things exist. I was being terse because I was in a hurry, but now that I have a moment, I'll explain. I'm a modder who makes story mods, all of which feature romantic content of one kind or another, and I draw heavily upon the classics for inspiration. I'm always looking for new ways to explore the way people can interact with each other.

 

Edit: I've read a lot of the Bronte sisters' work and pretty much everything Jane Austen ever published. Also the works of Elizabeth Gaskill and a few others. Believe it or not, Gaskill, a married woman with several children, had a fine example of a platonic romance in Cranford between Miss Matty and Thomas Holbrook. Of course, she also examples of ruined women, e.g. Ruth.

I watched an adaptation of North and South and meant to read some of her books but I got distracted, thanks for jogging my memory!  (Sorry for getting off-topic.) 

[XMissWooX]

There's also Cosette + Marius in Les Miserables and Christine + Raoul in The Phantom of the Opera, both of which are very popular stories. I don't know if sex is ever implied in the future, but certainly the crux of the romance doesn't include it.

[berelinde]

There's also Cosette + Marius in Les Miserables and Christine + Raoul in The Phantom of the Opera, both of which are very popular stories. I don't know if sex is ever implied in the future, but certainly the crux of the romance doesn't include it.

I'd argue that Cosette and Marius aren't really a great example of romance without sex because in the book, Marius spends way too much time contemplating his wife's virginity and how remarkable it was that she could have preserved it with a criminal for a father. I kinda want to smack Marius because of it. But the book does contain examples of non-sexual love: Valjean's affection for Fantine. In fact, Valjean might be the perfect asexual romantic hero. He's a bit preachy, true, but he doesn't necessarily look down on others because of their past. He doesn't consider himself superior by virtue of his orientation, which I like. Sadly, I'm not sure how those elements would work in a romantic plot.

 

Believe it or not, I haven't read Phantom. I was emotionally scarred as a child by hearing "Memories" way, way too many times, and I've avoided it ever since. It's a pathetic excuse, but a true one.

 

Beauty and the Beast, though... there might be something in there that a writer could work into a romance plot. The tricky part would be avoiding the implication that the only reason sex didn't happen was because one of the participants was monstrous.

 

Thanks for indulging this dialogue. It's useful to talk about ways the theme has been used successfully in the past... and also places where it hasn't quite worked as intended. Both provide insight into what might work in a game romance plot, and help rule out things that would reinforce problematic ideas.

[XMissWooX]

I'd argue that Cosette and Marius aren't really a great example of romance without sex because in the book, Marius spends way too much time contemplating his wife's virginity and how remarkable it was that she could have preserved it with a criminal for a father. I kinda want to smack Marius because of it. But the book does contain examples of non-sexual love: Valjean's affection for Fantine. In fact, Valjean might be the perfect asexual romantic hero. He's a bit preachy, true, but he doesn't necessarily look down on others because of their past. He doesn't consider himself superior by virtue of his orientation, which I like. Sadly, I'm not sure how those elements would work in a romantic plot.

I haven't actually read Les Mis yet - I do have the book in my library and intend to get round to it soon. I was more referring to the musical, which comes across as a rather 'innocent', love-at-first-sight type romance. It's certainly very 'squishy'.
 

Believe it or not, I haven't read Phantom. I was emotionally scarred as a child by hearing "Memories" way, way too many times, and I've avoided it ever since. It's a pathetic excuse, but a true one.

Isn't 'Memories' from Cats? (beautiful song)

[berelinde]

Isn't 'Memories' from Cats? (beautiful song)

Yes, but the composer is the same. It put me off everything Andrew Lloyd Weber ever wrote, which is actually a great deal.

 

Like you, perhaps, the first thing I think of when I think of a lot of literature is how it has been presented to a modern audience. The musical. The movie. If I like it, I'll read the book. I'll delve into other adaptations over the years. If I'm burned out on it first, I'll never read it.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't think rivalry = hate. 

 

Sure, some of them didn't make any sense.  I will never understand why Merrill continued to be Hawke's friend after he kept the eluvian shard for himself.  And a very pro-templar Hawke should not be able to pal around with Anders at all.

 

But characters like Carver are a great example of how rivalry can be done without it being an all or nothing hate/love approach. 

The only ones that made sense to me were Bethany and Carver, since they are family and you do for family.

But Anders, Aveline, Fenris, Isabela, Merrill, Sebastian, and Varric don't make sense to me. 

[daveliam]

The only ones that made sense to me were Bethany and Carver, since they are family and you do for family.

But Anders, Aveline, Fenris, Isabela, Merrill, Sebastian, and Varric don't make sense to me. 

 

It depends how it's written, to be honest.  I've had 'frenemies' in the past.  People who I was long time friends with that I either had a personal/professional rivalry with or just didn't agree with much of their world view.  It's not enough to make me not want to be friends with them, but it's enough to have a little tension since we disagree on many subjects. 

 

To me, Merrill, Sebastian, Anders, and Fenris are the most ridiculous ones.  To rival them, you really need to challenge some core beliefs of theirs; beliefs that they are very passionate about. 

 

But for Aveline, Isabela, and Varric, it's more about having a different outlook on life.  And that's easier to understand than the other examples.  We've all had those friends where we're like, "Ugh, really?  Again with this?" and usually it's not enough to make us want to ditch them as friends altogether.  

[AresKeith]

Goku and Vegeta are perfect examples of "Frenemies"

[Cunning Villain]

Seriously? Someone created a sexuality based on this? What's next? A sexuality for people who can't get aroused unless you hate someone?

[In Exile]

To change the subject, I had an idea of a possible character backstory for a demisexual character.

What if the LI in question is a friend of the protagonist by the time the events of the game start?

I think you'd get a lot of push back on being forced into a predefined relationship with an NPC (see Dawn Star in JE or Hawke and the family in DA2).

[In Exile]

Goku and Vegeta are perfect examples of "Frenemies"

You say Frenemies, I say Vegeta was just never able to truly be open with Goku about his feelings.

[Lady Artifice]

It depends how it's written, to be honest.  I've had 'frenemies' in the past.  People who I was long time friends with that I either had a personal/professional rivalry with or just didn't agree with much of their world view.  It's not enough to make me not want to be friends with them, but it's enough to have a little tension since we disagree on many subjects. 

 

To me, Merrill, Sebastian, Anders, and Fenris are the most ridiculous ones.  To rival them, you really need to challenge some core beliefs of theirs; beliefs that they are very passionate about. 

 

But for Aveline, Isabela, and Varric, it's more about having a different outlook on life.  And that's easier to understand than the other examples.  We've all had those friends where we're like, "Ugh, really?  Again with this?" and usually it's not enough to make us want to ditch them as friends altogether.  

 

I love frienemies in fiction, and I feel like I've had frienemies in real life, usually coworkers. One guy I work with and I have bickered a lot, and sometimes we argue over nothing, but we also joke. We also talk freely in a group get togethers outside of work and rib each other. Every once and a while, he says something boorish and I tell him that he's a jackass. He usually says that he knows he is. I find him unlikable, arrogant, and occasionally bigoted, but I can hang around with him and I would try to save him from drowning if it came to that. 

 

I even have a few frienemy types on the forums, come to think of it. 

 

Anyway, I didn't think it was so ridiculous that Merrill and Fenris would stick around with the rivalry path. After all, Merrill did tell a rivaled Hawke to get out with uncharacteristic fury. I've always thought that an important factor there is that in keeping the shard Hawke might be breaking her heart and crushing her dreams, but they are doing do at the behest of Marethari, the other person Merrill can love enough to forgive hurting her so deeply and it's easy for her to believe that Hawke is doing so for the same reasons, to try to protect her. I always imagined that it took months for unromanced Merrill to sort of forgive Hawke again after that, but I don't think it's so ridiculous that she could. Eventually. 

 

As for Fenris, he's so alone. He doesn't really feel like he sees eye to eye with anyone. I feel like if he were to have a friendship meter with each other companion, most of them would default to the rivalry side, the only exceptions being Sebastian and Aveline. What's one more person to be at odds with? At least he thinks he can trust Hawke, and he can growl at him about their disagreements as an equal. I think he finds that preferable to being alone. 

[Seraphim24]

Beauty and the Beast, though... there might be something in there that a writer could work into a romance plot. The tricky part would be avoiding the implication that the only reason sex didn't happen was because one of the participants was monstrous.

 

It's already been done

 

 

But yes Beauty and the Beast, Pride and Prejudice, Phantom of the Opera, etc, etc these are all things that tend to have those elements (and I have enjoyed for those reasons) but the tricky thing is blending them with your rogue Firefly character. I mean good god the flourishes in that scene are just way beyond me, but at least I like there's a core idea there that's nice.

 

Maybe part of the issue is that other orientations point to a gender, who someone feels attraction to. Homosexuality, heterosexuality, bisexuality, pansexuality, asexuality, all identify an object (same, different, two, all, none). Demisexuality is real, but it doesn't identify an object. A person can be demisexual homoromantic or demisexual heteroromantic, or any combination.

 

Yeah I don't really understand demisexual as an orientation either, it's more behavioral, frankly I don't know why that matters, as I've said sexual behavior is personally a lot more interesting and telling about someone than how that desire is oriented.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Goku and Vegeta are perfect examples of "Frenemies"

Well, to be fair a big reason Vageta hung around was basically because he had the mindset of "Nobody gets to kill Kakarot but me.".

[Pasquale1234]

Yeah I don't really understand demisexual as an orientation either, it's more behavioral, frankly I don't know why that matters, as I've said sexual behavior is personally a lot more interesting and telling about someone than how that desire is oriented.

Behavior is what you do, typically a choice.

Orientation is an attempt to describe how you feel, regardless of actual behavior.

[Seraphim24]

Behavior is what you do, typically a choice.

Orientation is an attempt to describe how you feel, regardless of actual behavior.

 

I think all my choices align pretty much exactly with how I feel so......

[Pasquale1234]

I think all my choices align pretty much exactly with how I feel so......

Then you've been fairly fortunate - as I hope most people have.

There is a ton of social pressure around dating, mating, etc., and a lot of people are pushed into relationships they don't really want.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Maybe part of the issue is that other orientations point to a gender, who someone feels attraction to. Homosexuality, heterosexuality, bisexuality, pansexuality, asexuality, all identify an object (same, different, two, all, none). Demisexuality is real, but it doesn't identify an object. A person can be demisexual homoromantic or demisexual heteroromantic, or any combination.

That is definitely one the biggest issues, yes. And leads to the confusion of it being a preference instead of an orientation. 

[daveliam]

That is definitely one the biggest issues, yes. And leads to the confusion of it being a preference instead of an orientation. 

 

I'm interested in hearing more about this.  How do you define 'orientation'?  And how does that differ from 'preference'?

[Seraphim24]

Then you've been fairly fortunate - as I hope most people have.

There is a ton of social pressure around dating, mating, etc., and a lot of people are pushed into relationships they don't really want.

 

I'd say I've faced fairly extreme social pressures to do all kinds of things completely contrary to what I want all the time, so... I don't know about that.

 

A lot of people do seem to let other people decide for them on matters of sex and so on which is a shame.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I'm interested in hearing more about this.  How do you define 'orientation'?  And how does that differ from 'preference'?

Basically, preference is a choice while orientation is not. 

 

For example, both Sera and Zevran have expressed sexual interest towards women over men.

Sera does so because of orientation, she is hardwired to be sexually attracted to women and not sexually attracted to men.

Zevran does so because of preference, he is hardwired to be sexually attracted to both but likes the company of women more.