Zevran does so because of preference, he is hardwired to be sexually attracted to both but likes the company of women more.
Why would someone be hardwired to desire something but like something else that's not that more?
Also you said "likes the company of women more" which is not really sexual right? You mean likes to have sex with women more than men?
Why would someone be hardwired to desire something but like something else that's not that more?
Also you said "likes the company of women more" which is not really sexual right? You mean likes to have sex with women more than men?
Because people can have preferences. Someone could be hardwired to like to eat fruit, but that person could have fruit they like to eat more than other fruit.
Yes, I mean he likes to have sexual dalliances with women more than he likes to have sexual dalliances with men.
Because people can have preferences. Someone could be hardwired to like to eat fruit, but that person could have fruit they like to eat more than other fruit.
Yes, I mean he likes to have sexual dalliances with women more than he likes to have sexual dalliances with men.
But how can preferences exist without some degree of associated biological impetus? I guess that's the part I don't get. That's been my understanding of all orientations for the most part, "gay isn't a choice" sort of thing.
But how can preferences exist without some degree of associated biological impetus? I guess that's the part I don't get. That's been my understanding of all orientations for the most part, "gay isn't a choice" sort of thing.
Preference can exist for a variety of reasons. To use the fruit eating example, maybe the person likes one fruit more than another fruit because the first fruit brings back good memories. Nothing biological or logical about it.
And yes, orientation is not a choice because people are hardwired with that. But even though Zevran can't choose what genders he is sexually attracted to, he can choose which one he likes sleeping with more. That's the difference between sexual orientation and sexual preference.
Preference can exist for a variety of reasons. To use the fruit eating example, maybe the person likes one fruit more than another fruit because the first fruit brings back good memories. Nothing biological or logical about it.
And yes, orientation is not a choice because people are hardwired with that. But even though Zevran can't choose what genders he is sexually attracted to, he can choose which one he likes sleeping with more. That's the difference between sexual orientation and sexual preference.
I can't say I've ever eaten something that didn't have something to do with the taste.... and I can't imagine someone has good memories eating fruit that tasted badly to them for example. If they remember eating an apple as a good experience, then what other reason was it than that the apple tasted good?
I mean is there a world where someone could eat an apple, it tastes terrible to them, but they somehow have a good memory of that experience?
If you feel like we're going in circles we can drop this but honestly it doesn't make sense to me.
Going back to sex for instance it's impossible for me to enjoy the possibility of sex or pleasure with anyone other than basically a reasonably compatible person of the opposite sex, so it's hardwired but I also would never choose anything else because it doesn't provide any sense of pleasure (not being what I naturally prefer).
I can't say I've ever eaten something that didn't have something to do with the taste.... and I can't imagine someone has good memories eating fruit that tasted badly to them for example. If they remember eating an apple as a good experience, then what other reason was it than that the apple tasted good?
I have a particular fondness for strawberries, because when I was little we lived near a stand where people sold fresh strawberries every day. Some of my most pleasant childhood memories involve strawberry tart and strawberries and cream. Like at picnics where I had fun, and strawberries bring those experiences to mind for me.
A better example maybe, would be in the movie Ratatouille. When the food critic bites into the dish, he has a flashback to a significant childhood memory. He's pleased by the dish primarily because it touches him in a way. A lot of people actually place a some emotional significance on certain foods, because of the memories they evoke.
I think food is a pretty good comparison, because hunger is a more primal thing in us, like attraction.
I can't say I've ever eaten something that didn't have something to do with the taste.... and I can't imagine someone has good memories eating fruit that tasted badly to them for example. If they remember eating an apple as a good experience, then what other reason was it than that the apple tasted good?
I mean is there a world where someone could eat an apple, it tastes terrible to them, but they somehow have a good memory of that experience?
If you feel like we're going in circles we can drop this but honestly it doesn't make sense to me.
Going back to sex for instance it's impossible for me to enjoy the possibility of sex or pleasure with anyone other than basically a reasonably compatible person of the opposite sex, so it's hardwired but I also would never choose anything else because it doesn't provide any sense of pleasure (not being what I naturally prefer).
I never said anything about one fruit tasting bad. I said the person is hardwired to like eating all fruit, but due to the memories one generates they likes that one more, thus they have a preference.
Due to the nature of your orientation, that being you are sexually attracted to the opposite sex, gender preference really doesn't apply to you since you orientated to only be attracted to one. Let's try this: What attributes do you like in a partner? Is there a favorite hair color, eye color, skin color, body type, facial structure, personality, intelligence, etc? You don't have to answer anything specific, just a yes or no will do.
I have a particular fondness for strawberries, because when I was little we lived near a stand where people sold fresh strawberries every day. Some of my most pleasant childhood memories involve strawberry tart and strawberries and cream. Like at picnics where I had fun, and strawberries bring those experiences to mind for me.
A better example maybe, would be in the movie Ratatouille. When the food critic bites into the dish, he has a flashback to a significant childhood memory. He's pleased by the dish primarily because it touches him in a way. A lot of people actually place a some emotional significance on certain foods, because of the memories they evoke.
I think food is a pretty good comparison, because hunger is a more primal thing in us, like attraction.
Ratatouille is a great example. The dish may not be the best dish, since we see the villain chef eat it and while it tastes good it does nothing special for him, but to the food critic that dish is the best dish in the world due to the memories it brings back. So while the critic loves all food as he states earlier in the film, he has a preference for ratatouille.
I have a particular fondness for strawberries, because when I was little we lived near a stand where people sold fresh strawberries every day. Some of my most pleasant childhood memories involve strawberry tart and strawberries and cream. Like at picnics where I had fun, and strawberries bring those experiences to mind for me.
A better example maybe, would be in the movie Ratatouille. When the food critic bites into the dish, he has a flashback to a significant childhood memory. He's pleased by the dish primarily because it touches him in a way. A lot of people actually place a some emotional significance on certain foods, because of the memories they evoke.
I think food is a pretty good comparison, because hunger is a more primal thing in us, like attraction.
I don't want to be crass ordinarily but imagine it was a stand that sold fresh pig intestines, I think regardless of how many picnics or events you had where people ate pig intestines and so on it would not be a positive memory for you personally.
Like everyone likes strawberries honestly, even people that don't normally eat fruit.
I never said anything about one fruit tasting bad. I said the person is hardwired to like eating all fruit, but due to the memories one generates they likes that one more, thus they have a preference.
Due to the nature of your orientation, that being you are sexually attracted to the opposite sex, gender preference really doesn't apply to you since you orientated to only be attracted to one. Let's try this: What attributes do you like in a partner? Is there a favorite hair color, eye color, skin color, body type, facial structure, personality, intelligence, etc? You don't have to answer anything specific, just a yes or no will do.
Hmm that's interesting, I'm not sure what it is designed to demonstrate, but I'll play anyway.
Hair color I don't know, I could maybe think of one but haven't thought too much, same for eye color and skin color. I think when everything is contrasting (pale skin dark hair, darker skin lighter hair, etc) it usually looks pretty cool, if you really pressed me I could probably come up with firmer answers.
Body type, well, normal, period, not too complicated, neither excessively fat or thin or muscular or non-muscular or anything.
Face along with body, I mean basically symmetrical and all that stuff, I can't say I've thought of these in any particular depth to be honest.
Personality well... I mean nice is better than mean, intelligent is better than dumb.
I feel like most of these things are fairly universal to be honest... not sure I stand out too much in any particular category.
Hmm that's interesting, I'm not sure what it is designed to demonstrate, but I'll play anyway.
Hair color I don't know, I could maybe think of one but haven't thought too much, same for eye color and skin color. I think when everything is contrasting (pale skin dark hair, darker skin lighter hair, etc) it usually looks pretty cool, i you really pressed me I could probably come up with firm answers.
Body type, well, normal, period, not too complicated, neither excessively fat or thin or muscular or non-muscular or anything.
Face along with body, I mean basically symmetrical and all that stuff, I can't say I've thought of these in any particular depth to be honest.
Personality well... I mean nice is better than mean, intelligent is better than dumb.
I feel like most of these things are fairly universal to be honest... not sure I stand out too much in any particular category.
Thank you. What you just expressed are preferences. An orientation meanwhile would be how if there was a person of the same sex who had these things, you wouldn't be attracted to them. They could have contrasting colors, an average and simple body, symmetrical features, and be nice and smart. But the fact that they are the same gender as you means you are not sexually attracted to them.
I don't want to be crass ordinarily but imagine it was a stand that sold fresh pig intestines, I think regardless of how many picnics or events you had where people ate pig intestines and so on it would not be a positive memory for you personally.
Like everyone likes strawberries honestly, even people that don't normally eat fruit.
Lots of people have particular favorites, and sometimes it's because they have pleasant memories associated with them. My sister prefers pomegranate because she thinks it's like eating little red jewels, and she'll usually pass up on strawberries. I like pomegranate, but it's because I have pleasant associations with strawberries that it will always be more appealing to me than other fruit, even ones as popular as apples or grapes.
Well, picking something so much less popular than fruit, like pig intestines, is a really poor example. And I think it's starts us off on a segue that we don't need to understand the point: Some people like particular things because they have positive associations for them. It's actually pretty straightforward.
Lots of people have particular favorites, and sometimes it's because they have pleasant memories associated with them. My sister prefers pomegranate because she thinks it's like eating little red jewels, and she'll usually pass up on strawberries. I like pomegranate, but it's because I have pleasant associations with strawberries that it will always be more appealing to me than other fruit, even ones as popular as apples or grapes.
Well, picking something so much less popular than fruit, like pig intestines, is a really poor example. And I think it's starts us off on a segue that we don't need to understand the point: Some people like particular things because they have positive associations for them. It's actually pretty straightforward.
I don't like strawberries. And some cultures DO eat pig intestines and cow intestines.
Lots of people have particular favorites, and sometimes it's because they have pleasant memories associated with them. My sister prefers pomegranate because she thinks it's like eating little red jewels, and she'll usually pass up on strawberries. I like pomegranate, but it's because I have pleasant associations with strawberries that it will always be more appealing to me than other fruit, even ones as popular as apples or grapes.
Well, picking something so much less popular than fruit, like pig intestines, is a really poor example. And I think it's starts us off on a segue that we don't need to understand the point: Some people like particular things because they have positive associations for them. It's actually pretty straightforward.
Well but it's just designed to make the contrary opinion...
I don't like strawberries. And some cultures DO eat pig intestines and cow intestines.
How about pig feces (again, forgive the crassness)? Or perhaps granite? You can't just ignore biology, taste is a real thing, it's kinda universally hardwired just as with food and all kinds of other things.
The appetite for granite is not hardwired into anyone, thus, how could it ever be a choice? No living thing has a preference for granite. You can't have preferences in the abstract separate from hardwiring.
Thank you. What you just expressed are preferences. An orientation meanwhile would be how if there was a person of the same sex who had these things, you wouldn't be attracted to them. They could have contrasting colors, an average and simple body, symmetrical features, and be nice and smart. But the fact that they are the same gender as you means you are not sexually attracted to them.
Why are those preferences? I'm pretty sure the fact that nice is better than mean is hardwired in some way, for example, or symmetry, or whatever. It's all basically hardwired, the desire for symmetry isn't a "choice" as far as I can tell.
I'm not sure what this "same features on the opposite gender" has to do with anything, no less than that body be of the opposing gender.
Why are those preferences? I'm pretty sure the fact that nice is better than mean is hardwired in some way, for example, or symmetry, or whatever. It's all basically hardwired, the desire for symmetry isn't a "choice" as far as I can tell.
I'm not sure what this "same features on the opposite gender" has to do with anything, no less than that body be of the opposing gender.
Because those are things you prefer. There is no genetic hardwiring for those things.
My point was that if there was a person who had every quality you prefer in a person, thus having all your sexual preferences, who is the same gender as you, you wouldn't find yourself attracted to them because you are attracted to only the opposite gender, thus your sexual orientation.
A simple example. Say a heterosexual guy have a preference for blond hair when it comes to girlfriends. That is a sexual preference. If that guy sees a guy with blond hair, thus matching his sexual preference, he wouldn't be attracted to them because the guy is a guy, thus against his sexual orientation. Then if that guy saw a girl with red hair, thus against his sexual preference, he would possibly still be attracted to the girl because she is a girl, thus matching his sexual orientation.
Sexual orientation is not a choice. No matter what the guy does, he will not find himself sexually attracted to the blond haired guy.
Sexual preference is a choice. Despite not matching his preference, the guy could still find himself sexually attracted to the red haired girl.
Do you understand the difference?
Because those are things you prefer. There is no genetic hardwiring for those things.
My point was that if there was a person who had every quality you prefer in a person, thus having all your sexual preferences, who is the same gender as you, you wouldn't find yourself attracted to them because you are attracted to only the opposite gender, thus your sexual orientation.
A simple example. Say a heterosexual guy have a preference for blond hair when it comes to girlfriends. That is a sexual preference. If that guy sees a guy with blond hair, thus matching his sexual preference, he wouldn't be attracted to them because the guy is a guy, thus against his sexual orientation. Then if that guy saw a girl with red hair, thus against his sexual preference, he would possibly still be attracted to the girl because she is a girl, thus matching his sexual orientation.
Sexual orientation is not a choice. No matter what the guy does, he will not find himself sexually attracted to the blond haired guy.
Sexual preference is a choice. Despite not matching his preference, the guy could still find himself sexually attracted to the red haired girl.
Do you understand the difference?
I think there is hard-wiring for symmetry and intellect and niceness to be honest.... at least in me, possibly others as well.
It seems to me these are arbitrarily divided along an assumption that like people's opinions are more diverse when it comes to body type so it seems to be more of a "preference" whereas something like gender is not something people change as easily or something.
Like, I realize it's a bit of a stretch to suggest normal looking body type is a hard wiring thing, but I think that's kind of how it works for me, going back to the stone age when humans mated based on preference for people that looked like they could hunt decently sort of thing, I could imagine some of my ancestors doing similarly.
I think preferences could more be a description for things that I might be willing to bend on, because they aren't as critical or by necessity, but there might be a pareto-ideal type right down to eye color as far as I know that's hardwired. If it's not hardwired at all I would expect to express no preference.
In the case of hair color for example I would see it as more not being hardwired at all, if I don't really have a preference it's probably because there is no hard-wiring.
The issue isn't whether something can be a de-minimis preference or not, it's whether it can exist without hard-wiring. If he's still attracted to the girl anyway maybe it's not an issue at all and has no hardwiring anyway.
So essentially you are arguing that there is no such thing as preference but instead everything involving it is a result of it being hardwired?
So essentially you are arguing that there is no such thing as preference but instead everything involving it is a result of it being hardwired?
Well not quite, there is no such thing as abstract preference divorced from genetic or biological impulse. I think people use the terms casually to refer to things that still have some degree of hardwiring, but are not strongly hardwired, for example, hair color.
Something like body type or gender is increasingly and strongly hardwired. In my case for example it's pretty utterly immutable and extreme, I can't find sexual desire in essentially any other context unless it's a reasonably compatible mate of the opposing gender. I might have an innate preference somewhere for a certain color hair perhaps, but in all odds it's just not hardwired to care about that kind of thing too much one way or the other.
If something doesn't have any genetic of biological connection, I find it impossible to believe it has any meaning at all to someone.
If something doesn't have any genetic of biological connection, I find it impossible to believe it has any meaning at all to someone.
So things like religion, art, music, virtual entertainment, etc have no meaning to people? Those have no genetic or biological connection to people.
I would not be surprised to see Kefka argue that they do.So things like religion, art, music, virtual entertainment, etc have no meaning to people? Those have no genetic or biological connection to people.
So things like religion, art, music, virtual entertainment, etc have no meaning to people? Those have no genetic or biological connection to people.
They have meaning to people in relationship to the actual desires and interests people have (which are themselves biological or genetic), sure. For example, a movie about pig intestines is going to be less popular than one about an apple field.
Music is sensory aural thing, virtual is visual, people respond better to positive sounds than harsh ones, nicer imagery than harsher imagery....
In fact that's why people crave "realism" in entertainment, the idea that something is drawn from inherent human desires and connections, not from abstract meaningless waiting for Godot tripe.
A form is never real, what you fill the container pretty much has to be by definition though.
I don't like strawberries. And some cultures DO eat pig intestines and cow intestines.
Did you mean to quote me or the other person? I'm not surprised by either of these things. I'm definitely aware that some people don't like strawberries.
Eh it's a perfect example and you know it.
No, I don't.
How about pig feces (again, forgive the crassness)? Or perhaps granite? You can't just ignore biology, taste is a real thing, it's kinda universally hardwired just as with food and all kinds of other things.
The appetite for granite is not hardwired into anyone, thus, how could it ever be a choice? No living thing has a preference for granite. You can't have preferences in the abstract separate from hardwiring.
Metaphors are supposed to make ideas simpler to understand, and this is getting terribly convoluted.
Do you have a favorite fruit?
"Nice" and "positive" are very literally abstract words, open to interpretation. Not every person will find the Apple orchard to be equally nice.
Did you mean to quote me or the other person? I'm not surprised by either of these things. I'm definitely aware that some people don't like strawberries.
No, I don't.
Metaphors are supposed to make ideas simpler to understand, and this is getting terribly convoluted.
Do you have a favorite fruit?
I don't know really, haven't thought about it too much. I think I like the same ones everyone else does.
"Nice" and "positive" are very literally abstract words, open to interpretation. Not every person will find the Apple orchard to be equally nice.
All I'm saying is whether they do or don't has to be dependent on their own biology and genetics, maybe it's not the taste of apples per se, but at least the sensory experience of being in an apple orchard or using the senses to envision what an apple orchard must be like.
After all this, you really still think everyone likes the same things.
Ok, then.
OP, I'm sorry this has gotten off track. I'm going to let it go.
After all this, you really still think everyone likes the same things.
Ok, then.
OP, I'm sorry this has gotten off track. I'm going to let it go.
Well actually I was saying that everything that people like or dislike must have a genetic or biological base to it, preferences for simple things are formed physically and naturally, same as complicated things. I wasn't saying therefore "everyone likes the same things."
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