1942 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

To make something perfectly clear, nobody on this thread is claiming that not having a demisexual character in a video game is discrimination on par with some forms of discrimination against various orientations that occur. This thread is merely to request that Bioware consider it as well as a place for people to discuss it and ideas for it in a civil manner. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That sounds interesting, but you ask the wrong question. Rather than "a request for demisexuality in bioware games", it should be a request for a demisexual character in a  Bioware game. This is the difference between asking for a female protagonist and asking for a good, strong, protagonist who is female. Like all of these ideas for whatever kind of romance, you have to write the core character properly first. The fact that there is no superficial interest from the character towards the PC or anyone initially could be very interesting, especially set against a "hits on everything that moves" character. But there must be a plan and a strong character written, with this being one of their characteristics. We've already seen the poor results when Bioware just shoves things in to pander to one demographic.

I am glad you found it interesting.

I see what you mean, and I agree with you that the orientation should be written around the character rather than the character being written around the orientation. I worded it the way I did because part of the request is also for Bioware to consider letting a player play as a demisexual character. This thread came before DAI came out, so at the time Bioware for years had a certain formula about romances, part of it being mandatory sex. Dragon Age: Inquisition changed that by having some characters have optional sex scenes while others even have no reference to it unless the protagonist chooses to. This was said to be both in interest to explore new ways to write stories and to appeal to players who aren't interested in such content but are in romance content, asexuals being referred to directly. This also can appeal to demisexuals as well, so DAI was a big step in the right direction for these orientations. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I just occur to me that I am becoming pretty political here, and in an attempt to rerail the thread.

 

If we get a demi-sexual romance in da4 (or any other game). How would you like it to differ from Merill's? (since we are not going to get the same romance twice).

How would you see it manifesting though? More specifically, how would that be any different than locking the romance behind an approval rating as in Dragon Age Origins?

Mainly, there are only three things I think should manifest for the character to set it apart from just being shy/inexperienced/etc. 

 

1) Have the character shown to develop a strong bond with the protagonist before any attraction towards the protagonist from them arises.

2) Have them indifferent and/or uncomfortable with things involving sex, like dirty jokes, flirts, etc. 

3) Have them show attraction solely towards the protagonist, and not towards another character showing how unique the feelings are for them.

 

I have personally already stated I want someone not timid, so I can't be just read as shyness. But what are your wishes?

A character that isn't timid about anything else but suddenly can't find the words when it comes to this could work well, since it shows it is not merely part of the character.

 

It could also be an nice contrast to the everything that moves characters. (There could be some interesting banter, I imagine.)  

I agree. I think the banter between a demisexual companion and the promiscuous character could be very interesting, both in terms of character building and also in subtly representing the orientation since it provides a great contrast between demisexual and sexual views on various aspects of these things. Like for example the promiscuous character could point out that someone flirted with the demi character but the demi character says they didn't realize. 

[HuldraDancer]

Hanako Ikezawa, I know I have mentioned this in this thread several times before but if you have not played Tides of Destiny before I would strongly recommend looking up Odette's romance in that game, going by your description or at least what I've understood for it I think it may fit the bill of what you are looking for. Though the game has simple romance mechanics I think it may count. The scene where she does come out and tells you how she feels is what mostly strikes me as something along the lines of what you are looking for since it doesn't happen until you have really bonded with her. 

 

Also sorry if it's coming off as just play other games that really isn't how I meant it, just offering a suggestion and asking if something like that may be along the lines of what you are looking for. I mean just the scenes themselves since the way to raise affection is a bit simple.

[Natureguy85]

Mainly, there are only three things I think should manifest for the character to set it apart from just being shy/inexperienced/etc. 

 

1) Have the character shown to develop a strong bond with the protagonist before any attraction towards the protagonist from them arises.

2) Have them indifferent and/or uncomfortable with things involving sex, like dirty jokes, flirts, etc. 

3) Have them show attraction solely towards the protagonist, and not towards another character showing how unique the feelings are for them.

 

1) How would you define a strong bond? Again, how is this different from the Origins approval meters?

2) That's easily doable. You could have the "everything that moves" type simply think they are a prude.

3) Well that's pretty much most game romances.

 

 

Also, you mention in your first response to me letting the player be demisexual. That's different entirely from characterizing a party member that way.  How would you program that? It seems entirely RP for the player as you never have to get into any romances. In Origins and Mass Effect 2 you can shut down characters' advances.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Hanako Ikezawa, I know I have mentioned this in this thread several times before but if you have not played Tides of Destiny before I would strongly recommend looking up Odette's romance in that game, going by your description or at least what I've understood for it I think it may fit the bill of what you are looking for. Though the game has simple romance mechanics I think it may count. The scene where she does come out and tells you how she feels is what mostly strikes me as something along the lines of what you are looking for since it doesn't happen until you have really bonded with her. 

 

Also sorry if it's coming off as just play other games that really isn't how I meant it, just offering a suggestion and asking if something like that may be along the lines of what you are looking for. I mean just the scenes themselves since the way to raise affection is a bit simple.

I looked up the videos involving it last night since I can't play the game due to not having the required consoles, and I can see where you are seeing that. Something like that would be nice, yes. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

1) How would you define a strong bond? Again, how is this different from the Origins approval meters?

2) That's easily doable. You could have the "everything that moves" type simply think they are a prude.

3) Well that's pretty much most game romances.

 

 

Also, you mention in your first response to me letting the player be demisexual. That's different entirely from characterizing a party member that way.  How would you program that? It seems entirely RP for the player as you never have to get into any romances. In Origins and Mass Effect 2 you can shut down characters' advances.

1) Mainly just have it be shown through dialogues and cutscenes. The Origins approval meter has potential for this but needs tweaks. Like for example the character would show no sexual attraction at all until they were at the 100% mark, where in Origins all characters showed interest a lot sooner. 

2) They could, yes. Though I would like if the promiscuous character and the demi character gained mutual respect for each other, or at least on the matter of sex and attraction. That way it wouldn't be just the promiscuous character prude-shaming the demi character or the demi character s***-shaming the promiscuous character. 

3) I mean like they don't show any sexual attraction towards anyone else. Most game romances still have people show sexual attraction to various characters. Seeing someone as asthetically pleasing could work though. 

 

I meant that this thread was a request for letting the character play as demisexual and/or a character being demisexual. It's true you can RP as one, but as you said in previous Bioware games that meant that your character was simply not in a romantic relationship with anyone at all. Dragon Age: Inquisition improved that by offering romances where sex was optional rather than mandatory or where the level of physical intimacy was left ambiguous for the player. 

[HuldraDancer]

I looked up the videos involving it last night since I can't play the game due to not having the required consoles, and I can see where you are seeing that. Something like that would be nice, yes. 

 

 

Follow up inquiry then, even though it seems they are moving away from having companions make any kind of move on the player character without prompt from then first would you like something with the character perhaps flirting or trying to flirt or even admitting having feelings for the player character after their approval bar is very high?

 

Shame you do not have the right consoles to play it imo it is a very good game one that I highly recommend as well.

[Delilah Faye]

Follow up inquiry then, even though it seems they are moving away from having companions make any kind of move on the player character without prompt from then first would you like something with the character perhaps flirting or trying to flirt or even admitting having feelings for the player character after their approval bar is very high?

 

I know you're asking the OP, but I want to say that would really like that. I've been hoping Bioware might reconsider about never having the LIs make the first move. 

[HuldraDancer]

I know you're asking the OP, but I want to say that would really like that. I've been hoping Bioware might reconsider about never having the LIs make the first move. 

 

I would like them to reconsider this as well, makes them feel a bit more alive when some of them make the first move at least to me it does just little things that add to the overall experience. 

 

Kind of hard to rp any shy in love characters when you have to make the first move in romance all the time

 

Heck even a simple little flirt would probably be enough for me I'll take any scrap on the matter I can get right now.

[Delilah Faye]

I would like them to reconsider this as well, makes them feel a bit more alive when some of them make the first move at least to me it does just little things that add to the overall experience. 

 

Kind of hard to rp any shy in love characters when you have to make the first move in romance all the time

 

Heck even a simple little flirt would probably be enough for me I'll take any scrap on the matter I can get right now.

 

I know exactly what you mean. 

 

If I had a choice between being able to play a character I'd call demi, and have a demi companion, I'd pick playing the character. 

[Natureguy85]

I would like them to reconsider this as well, makes them feel a bit more alive when some of them make the first move at least to me it does just little things that add to the overall experience. 

 

Kind of hard to rp any shy in love characters when you have to make the first move in romance all the time

 

Heck even a simple little flirt would probably be enough for me I'll take any scrap on the matter I can get right now.

 

"Tis cold in my tent, all alone."

 

Also, in Mass Effect, all you have to do is be nice to Ashley or Kaidan and that puts you in a romance with them!

[HuldraDancer]

"Tis cold in my tent, all alone."

 

Also, in Mass Effect, all you have to do is be nice to Ashley or Kaidan and that puts you in a romance with them!

 

I'll give ya Morrigan since technically that is flirting but come on Kaidan and Ashley  in Mass Effect can't count due to that being kind of a ninjamance.

 

EDIT: But you still need to trigger something with Morrigan first to get her to come onto you like that.

[Natureguy85]

I'll give ya Morrigan since technically that is flirting but come on Kaidan and Ashley  in Mass Effect can't count due to that being kind of a ninjamance.

 

EDIT: But you still need to trigger something with Morrigan first to get her to come onto you like that.

 

Just a 50% approval rating. Nothing romantic. The only real argument against it would be that it's not real romantic interest, but rather her trying to woo you before bringing up the Dark Ritual later.

[HuldraDancer]

Just a 50% approval rating. Nothing romantic. The only real argument against it would be that it's not real romantic interest, but rather her trying to woo you before bringing up the Dark Ritual later.

 

I just said that you have to make a hint at her first before she'll do it. I actually had to look it up when doing my first run with her since I couldn't get it turns out that I never hit any of the 'flirt' options so I never got the option to go to her tent. That's all I meant. You still have to hit some kind of 'I'm interested in you' option before it's offered up. Unless my game was bugged which is also a possibility.

[RenAdaar]

Not saying there are not problems and prejudices, just saying that they are not systemic the way the prejudices the members of the LGBT community face. For example, if an ace-/demisexual person(s) want to marry, nobody requires them to proof they are having sex at least X times a week / month before they can be given a marriage license or rights to adopt. Neither can you lose your job if you boss decides you don't have enough sex or talk enough about having sex (whereas the opposite might be true for gay/bi folk, and just women in general), etc. People can be insensitive and even outright hateful without it being systemic discrimination. Also, this "highly sexualized world" isn't so great to us... what are we even? Sexy sexuals? Con-sexuals? (Actually, consexual sounds pretty rad, although a bit weird, since I doubt anyone on this planet is completely sexual all the time, but anyway). If anything, it's actually really hostile towards sexually active women in particular. And most of that is based on other related forms of oppression (like corrective rape, which is often a mix of misogyny and homophobia).

 

Also, I'm kinda having hard time imagining where this discrimination takes place. I mean, gay couples and trans folk who "don't pass" get harassed just for being in public, just like women can face sexual harassment anywhere, and POC can face racism anywhere just by "existing while black". Then there's the pronoun game and "what-do-I-call-my-significant-other-without-accidentally-outing-myself-to-a-homophobic-boss" -game the gay/bi people have to sometimes play at work just to keep their jobs. I mean, I don't know about other people, but I don't go around my workplace telling people about my criteria for sexual partners or when or at what point I am able or willing to sleep with someone. Remarks like that would in my opinion go way past the regular office break room small-talk like, for example, making an off-hand comment about a significant other (i.e. "last week me and by husband/boyfriend/wife/girlfriend did this and that"), which can get an LGBT person in trouble if they're not careful. 

 

This whole conversation gives me flash-backs to that conversation in the LGBT community a few years back where there was talk on whether being into BDSM qualified as a queer identity. Back then many LGBT people found that problematic and pointed out that their human rights and being able to talk about their SS husband / wife in the office break room without the fear of being fired isn't quite the same as somebody else's perceived right to talk about their last scene without weirding people out. And yeah, I have to say I kinda agree. True, the prejudices against the BDSM community are unjust and outing people's preferences and mocking them is really heinous and generally against all common decency, but it's not nearly at the same level as the abuses suffered by the LGBT community.

 

So I wouldn't compare demi and ace discrimination with LGBT-related discrimination, no, and that's my only beef with this. Representation? All for it. Discussion on resources and awareness of different forms and levels of sexual and romantic attraction? Yes, please! We don't talk about these issues enough. But those discussions don't belong solely into the LGBT category. If anything, it's a much wider cultural discussion on sex and our cultural view of sex than a question of sexuality (since demi itself is not a sexual orientation but level of sexual attraction. Straight people can be ace or demi too, and claiming sexual minority or oppression based on just that seems kinda iffy to me as a straight person and an ally).

I am getting real tired of this "asexuals dont face discrimination/enough discrimination" argument people keep making every time we try to talk about asexual anything. 

 

 Asexuals can face homophobia and biphobia if they are biromantic or homoromantic so yes they can get into trouble for mentioning a girlfriend/boyfriend. And yes if someone will fire you because you are gay there is a high chance that person will fire an asexual as well. 

 

many asexuals are transgender individuals so they can face those issues as well 

 

 the diffrence between bdsm and asexuals is that one is a fetish the other is a sexuality... you cant compare the two. 

 

Here is a whole article about ace discrimination read it please ---> https://www.psycholo...roup-x-asexuals you might be surprised.

 

corrective rape and sexual abuse is a big problem for the asexual community like it is for the bi and gay communities

 

in russia it is illegal for asexuals (and transgender individuals) to own a drivers licence because we are considered mentally ill

 

Also straight people can not be ace that would mean we have to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex which we are not. your thinking of hetroromantic which still doesn't make them straight

 

people in the asexual spectrum are a sexual minority and members of the lgbtqia (lgbt+) http://www.glaad.org...ender-aromantic

 

already so it is odd that you claim to be an ally of us and then say stuff like this... 

[Saphiron123]

Honestly, I wish bioware would stop focusing on sex and gender so much and focus on telling great stories. Gaider put so much damn effort into it for inquisition that he changed lore to fit his politics, and took time away from what little story we got so he could tell us all how we should feel.

The funny thing is he didn't even write it for LGBT people, he wrote it to preach at straight people, it's very explanation heavy.

[Natureguy85]

Honestly, I wish bioware would stop focusing on sex and gender so much and focus on telling great stories. Gaider put so much damn effort into it for inquisition that he changed lore to fit his politics, and took time away from what little story we got so he could tell us all how we should feel.

The funny thing is he didn't even write it for LGBT people, he wrote it to preach at straight people, it's very explanation heavy.

 

Amen. I'm fully with you. And it's tied to other things too. Just look at how this thread changed from an interesting idea for a character into a whining contest and argument over who's oppressed more.

[SofaJockey]

Honestly, I wish bioware would stop focusing on sex and gender so much and focus on telling great stories. Gaider put so much damn effort into it for inquisition that he changed lore to fit his politics, and took time away from what little story we got so he could tell us all how we should feel.

The funny thing is he didn't even write it for LGBT people, he wrote it to preach at straight people, it's very explanation heavy.

 

BioWare have said repeatedly that their games do not focus on sex and gender.

The vast majority of the game is combat, after all.

 

But if they are going to offer the ability to role play characters,

then they are going to offer different role play choices to as many of their customers as possible.

 

Sex and gender are spoken of in the games press because most games ignore the choices some gamers would like to make.

So as BioWare do offer it, it remains news worthy until its provision becomes more normalised.

 

Frankly, if a few individual players get huffy and puffy because a handful of lines in the game

run contrary to their hateful view of the world, then let them huff and puff...

 

Back to demisexuality...

 

IF it fits naturally with the story and character of an individual NPC, then that would be just fine.

But the focus of the story remains fantasy RPG.

[Natureguy85]

BioWare have said repeatedly that their games do not focus on sex and gender.

The vast majority of the game is combat, after all.

 

But if they are going to offer the ability to role play characters,

then they are going to offer different role play choices to as many of their customers as possible.

 

Sex and gender are spoken of in the games press because most games ignore the choices some gamers would like to make.

So as BioWare do offer it, it remains news worthy until its provision becomes more normalised.

 

Frankly, if a few individual players get huffy and puffy because a handful of lines in the game

run contrary to their hateful view of the world, then let them huff and puff...

 

Back to demisexuality...

 

IF it fits naturally with the story and character of an individual NPC, then that would be just fine.

But the focus of the story remains fantasy RPG.

 

Nice strawman. Nobody said the entire game focuses on sexuality and gender, but it's clear they are slapping in things just to say they are there. I'm all for the inclusion for different types of characters, but if they're poorly written or presented, it's just lame pandering. You should want good characters, not just ones that have whatever characteristic you want to celebrate.

[SofaJockey]

Nice strawman. Nobody said the entire game focuses on sexuality and gender, but it's clear they are slapping in things just to say they are there. I'm all for the inclusion for different types of characters, but if they're poorly written or presented, it's just lame pandering. You should want good characters, not just ones that have whatever characteristic you want to celebrate.

 

I don't think your point about what BioWare are doing is clear at all.

BioWare look to me to be including a range of characters in different situations, e.g.:

• Fairbanks is a character with a hidden noble lineage.
• Loranil is a Dalish elf ready to leave his clan for the Inquisition.
• Krem is a member of the Chargers who happens to be a trans man.

All have very minor stories.

Krem is a minor character who in and of himself does not justify or merit the huge tracts of debate about his story, he just doesn't.

A character who finds himself distanced from his original class or clan is not remarkable, but up to now a character distanced from his biological gender, is.

All these minor characters have only a few lines about them, none of them have deep back stories.

 

What makes this discussion so difficult (and I am not making the accusation to you personally) is that the criticism:

 

'This character is poorly written', or 'this character is pandering to (insert derogative phrase)' is often a way to articulate the sentiment,

'I don't want this type of character to exist in my game'.

 

I'm delighted that a wide range of minor characters appear in BioWare's games.

The writing merely has to be up to standard for a minor character, nothing more.

 

I don't see accusations that CD Projekt Red slapped a gay and a cross-dressing character into The Witcher 3 just to say they were there.

So why is BioWare due all this grief?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Follow up inquiry then, even though it seems they are moving away from having companions make any kind of move on the player character without prompt from then first would you like something with the character perhaps flirting or trying to flirt or even admitting having feelings for the player character after their approval bar is very high?

 

Shame you do not have the right consoles to play it imo it is a very good game one that I highly recommend as well.

Yes, I would be fine with that. For some characters it makes sense that they would make the first move rather than always the protagonist.

 

With the player always having to initiate the romances, sometimes it is difficult to roleplay certain types of characters, like one who is demisexual and/or shy and/or introvented and/or etc, since you have to do the flirting and all the moves which can run counter to that character. 

 

I do like how for some character's romance paths at least it isn't always blatant flirting though. Sometimes the romance gets started merely by being nice to the love interest. 

[Natureguy85]

I don't think your point about what BioWare are doing is clear at all.

BioWare look to me to be including a range of characters in different situations, e.g.:

• Fairbanks is a character with a hidden noble lineage.
• Loranil is a Dalish elf ready to leave his clan for the Inquisition.
• Krem is a member of the Chargers who happens to be a trans man.

All have very minor stories.

Krem is a minor character who in and of himself does not justify or merit the huge tracts of debate about his story, he just doesn't.

A character who finds himself distanced from his original class or clan is not remarkable, but up to now a character distanced from his biological gender, is.

All these minor characters have only a few lines about them, none of them have deep back stories.

 

What makes this discussion so difficult (and I am not making the accusation to you personally) is that the criticism:

 

'This character is poorly written', or 'this character is pandering to (insert derogative phrase)' is often a way to articulate the sentiment,

'I don't want this type of character to exist in my game'.

 

I don't see accusations that CD Projekt Red slapped a gay and a cross-dressing character into The Witcher 3 just to say they were there.

So why is BioWare due all this grief?

 

Exactly. Such a character is remarkable, particularly in a dark fantasy setting as opposed to a science fiction setting such as Mass Effect. I haven't played Inquisition yet, but I immediately wonder how this was supposedly done in that day and age. My second question is "why?". Again, such a character doesn't seem to fit the setting. Transsexuals are a tiny percentage of the population in our real world, so would you really find one in that world? In fairness, bisexuality seems to be quite a bit more common in Thedas than the real world so maybe. So does it seem natural that there would be a transsexual man or does he seem shoved in?

 

I haven't played Witcher 3 yet either so I can't speak to that, but I suspect Shepard is correct about the more subtle and organic nature of the character. As an article I read put it, you have to put characters in without calling special attention to them so it's established as no big deal and perfectly natural. When you go with the "look how inclusive we are" route, people notice.
 

[SofaJockey]

... Transsexuals are a tiny percentage of the population in our real world, so would you really find one in that world? In fairness, bisexuality seems to be quite a bit more common in Thedas than the real world so maybe. So does it seem natural that there would be a transsexual man or does he seem shoved in? 

 

You're trying to assess the validity of the appearance in a game of one character based on 'real life' population,

with the argument, 'there are so few trans people in real life, if you encounter one in Thedas they must be 'shoved in''?

 

These are simply characters in a fantasy RPG world, I struggle to understand what 'shoved in' means and why the inclusion of this character would be an issue?