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[In Exile]

Transsexuals are a tiny percentage of the population in our real world, so would you really find one in that world? In fairness, bisexuality seems to be quite a bit more common in Thedas than the real world so maybe. So does it seem natural that there would be a transsexual man or does he seem shoved in?

 

Elven gods are a tiny percentage of the population in Thedas, but that didn't stop us from meeting at least two of them. Proportions of characters you meet =/= global proportions. It's not an SRS. 
 

Edit: In fact, I'm going to use that ratio from now on. # of actual gods > # of characters that are trans. 

[Saphiron123]

I don't think your point about what BioWare are doing is clear at all.

BioWare look to me to be including a range of characters in different situations, e.g.:

• Fairbanks is a character with a hidden noble lineage.
• Loranil is a Dalish elf ready to leave his clan for the Inquisition.
• Krem is a member of the Chargers who happens to be a trans man.

All have very minor stories.

Krem is a minor character who in and of himself does not justify or merit the huge tracts of debate about his story, he just doesn't.

A character who finds himself distanced from his original class or clan is not remarkable, but up to now a character distanced from his biological gender, is.

All these minor characters have only a few lines about them, none of them have deep back stories.

 

What makes this discussion so difficult (and I am not making the accusation to you personally) is that the criticism:

 

'This character is poorly written', or 'this character is pandering to (insert derogative phrase)' is often a way to articulate the sentiment,

'I don't want this type of character to exist in my game'.

 

I'm delighted that a wide range of minor characters appear in BioWare's games.

The writing merely has to be up to standard for a minor character, nothing more.

 

I don't see accusations that CD Projekt Red slapped a gay and a cross-dressing character into The Witcher 3 just to say they were there.

So why is BioWare due all this grief?

The fact Gaider rewrote the basics of qunari culture just to support Krem though is an issue. The Qunari were a unique almost fanatical religion with very strict and rigid roles, but no, she changed them specifically because of his own politics.

Should trans people be accepted, yes, should the most unique culture in the series be made to be just as accepting as everyone else to fit Gaider's politics? Hell no. 

Next the qunari will settle their differences with hugs.

[Saphiron123]

Exactly. Such a character is remarkable, particularly in a dark fantasy setting as opposed to a science fiction setting such as Mass Effect. I haven't played Inquisition yet, but I immediately wonder how this was supposedly done in that day and age. My second question is "why?". Again, such a character doesn't seem to fit the setting. Transsexuals are a tiny percentage of the population in our real world, so would you really find one in that world? In fairness, bisexuality seems to be quite a bit more common in Thedas than the real world so maybe. So does it seem natural that there would be a transsexual man or does he seem shoved in?

 

I haven't played Witcher 3 yet either so I can't speak to that, but I suspect Shepard is correct about the more subtle and organic nature of the character. As an article I read put it, you have to put characters in without calling special attention to them so it's established as no big deal and perfectly natural. When you go with the "look how inclusive we are" route, people notice.
 

If they want to have a woman living as a man in order to fight that's not an issue, personally though I hated how they changed the qunari just for that one character. 

I lover Sten's speeches about women fighters, they were great culture shock comedy moments. It's a pity they were retconned so Gaider could preach about LGBT issues.

[AresKeith]

If they want to have a woman living as a man in order to fight that's not an issue, personally though I hated how they changed the qunari just for that one character. 

I lover Sten's speeches about women fighters, they were great culture shock comedy moments. It's a pity they were retconned so Gaider could preach about LGBT issues.

 

Except it wasn't Sten wasn't shocked that female Warden was a female, he felt confused because she still considered herself a woman plus being a warrior

[Saphiron123]

Except it wasn't Sten wasn't shocked that female Warden was a female, he felt confused because she still considered herself a woman plus being a warrior

That's what Gaider said long after the fact... based on hearing Sten's conversations with wynne and the warden and having just played origins, it makes no sense.

 

• Sten: Why are you here?
• Wynne: I beg your pardon?
• Sten: Women are artisans, or merchants. Or farmers, though you don't seem particularly... earthy. They have no place in war.
• Wynne: I can't even begin to tell you what's wrong with that idea.
• Sten: It is not done. There is no more to it.
• Wynne: I do not understand. Do the Qunari have no female mages? No female warriors?
• Sten: Of course not. Why would our women wish to be men?
• Wynne: Do you believe I wish to be a man?
• Sten: You cannot wish to be a man. It will lead you only to frustration.
• Wynne: Hmm. I believe this discussion does the same. Let us speak no more of it, Sten.
• Sten: As you wish.

I don't think Sten has a word for transgenderism, no matter what Bull says. And there's more conversations then this one. Qunari gender roles are (were) very strict until Gaider rewrote them to suit his needs.

[Saphiron123]

"Changing" qunari culture implies that he wrote anything about trans people in qunari culture to begin with. So lol.

 

I can't tell if you're deliberately referring to Krem as "her" here, but if you are then I won't bother since you're probably beyond reason on this issue anyway.

I wasn't deliberately referring, no. That said, Sten explicitly says women can't be men to the warden. It's literally in the game as part of the qunari culture's thoughts on gender.

You can lol all you want, but that doesn't make it any more a rewrite specifically for Krem by David Gaider. And that's annoying, because he didn't have to alter the most unique culture in the game to suit his politics. Inclusion is a wonderful thing, but so are the qunari, and they're at their best as religious fanatics.

[AresKeith]

That's what Gaider said long after the fact... based on hearing Sten's conversations with wynne and the warden and having just played origins, it makes no sense.

 

• Sten: Why are you here?
• Wynne: I beg your pardon?
• Sten: Women are artisans, or merchants. Or farmers, though you don't seem particularly... earthy. They have no place in war.
• Wynne: I can't even begin to tell you what's wrong with that idea.
• Sten: It is not done. There is no more to it.
• Wynne: I do not understand. Do the Qunari have no female mages? No female warriors?
• Sten: Of course not. Why would our women wish to be men?
• Wynne: Do you believe I wish to be a man?
• Sten: You cannot wish to be a man. It will lead you only to frustration.
• Wynne: Hmm. I believe this discussion does the same. Let us speak no more of it, Sten.
• Sten: As you wish.

I don't think Sten has a word for transgenderism, no matter what Bull says. And there's more conversations then this one. Qunari gender roles are (were) very strict until Gaider rewrote them to suit his needs.

 

Well considering Bull comes from a different branch of the Qun than Sten he would probably know more than him, or Bull was lying to make Krem feel better *shrugs*

 

So no Gaider didn't rewrite them to "suit his needs" just because you took Sten's word as complete law

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Why are we having the Krem/Qunari retcon discussion? 

[Saphiron123]

Why are we having the Krem/Qunari retcon discussion? 

Just seems to be where things went.
 

• Sten: Why are you here?
• Morrigan: Excuse me?
• Sten: Obviously you are no priestess. But shouldn't you be... running a shop, or a farm somewhere, rather than fighting?
• Morrigan: You think to tell me my place, Qunari? You are very brave.
• Sten: It is not done.
• Morrigan: But it is done. Do not be such a blind fool.
• Sten: I speak the truth. It is not I who is blind.

[In Exile]

Why are we having the Krem/Qunari retcon discussion? 

 

I'm just going to have to drag out the formal logic posts I made on this subject again. It's kind of shocking the degree to which people pose as experts on the Qun without understanding any part of it. 

[Saphiron123]

I'm just going to have to drag out the formal logic posts I made on this subject again. It's kind of shocking the degree to which people pose as experts on the Qun without understanding any part of it. 

I follow the word of Sten. It's cannon and cannot be refuted.

[AresKeith]

I follow the word of Sten. It's cannon and cannot be refuted.

 

Which is your first mistake

[In Exile]

I follow the word of Sten. It's cannon and cannot be refuted.

You've misunderstood the Qun. I can't find my post cogent post on this issue but this is a sufficient answer for now:

 

They operate on insane troll logic. Their very notion of identity is defined through liberal application of the No True Scotsman fallacy. You can't say that you understood their views on identity and take issue with their mental gymnastics when it comes to gender. They're the same thing. 

 

Let's turn right back to the Arishok talking about Tal-Vasoth. He says that he lost no "Qunari" to talk the Tal-Vasoth. This only works if you tautologically define a Qunari as "someone who would not become a Tal-Vasoth". It is the same kind of logical black hole Sten puts forward in DA:O. Applying this to gender, here is what Sten (and the Arishok) say: 

 

Sten says: IF AND ONLY IF "Warrior", THEN "Man". One implication of the biconditional being IF NOT Man, THEN NOT "Warrior". We have no idea what Sten considers to be a warrior beyond the fact that it seems to involve "war" being your calling in some important way (not just a propensity for fighting). When you talk to Sten about the GWs, he views their "role" as being to combat the blight. In some sense, that's a "Warrior" role. And then his mind breaks, because he has the fundamental Qun biconditional about gender and warriors applicable in this case ("IF Warrior, THEN Man") along with your clearly defined role ("PC = Grey Warden = Warrior") and the implication of that biconditional ("IF NOT Man, then NOT Warrior"). So now Sten has to deal with you - by his internal logic - being in the "NOT Warrior" box but at the same time having you assert you are a "Warrior". That breaks his mind. Since he accepts his precondition can't be wrong - he's a good Qunari - he assumes you're lying and attempts to get you to relent (by saying you're a "NOT Warrior"). The Ben-Hassarath solve this issue by saying you're not "NOT Man". And that's the No True Scotsman fallacy. 

 

This works the same way with the Arishok and Tal-Vasoth, since the logic there is just "IF AND ONLY IF Tal-Vasoth, THEN NOT Qunari". 

 

Understanding this in terms of formal logic is very important, because as far as we can tell the Qun is content neutral. "Man" means whatever thing they define it to mean, not whatever it corresponds to IRL. People think the words the Qun uses about roles apprehend IRL meaning instead of whatever meaning the Qunari define those words to mean, which they often pull out of the air when confronted by a circumstance that doesn't fit their predefined notion. That's the Qunari's whole stick - the No True Scotsman fallacy. 

 

[Saphiron123]

You've misunderstood the Qun. I can't find my post cogent post on this issue but this is a sufficient answer for now:

So you don't dig the way the Qunari are written, I do. You might be overthinking it a bit though, it's fiction dude, and there are far more insane religions in real life. I mean God forbid we have a race with a unique religious fanaticism that actually makes them feel different from the other races who are damned near the same. It's certainly not the most insane cultural stance or concept of gender roles in history. Sten was puzzled, but his mind was hardly broken, and there's a lot of cultures with extremely strict gender roles throughout history.

Still ****** poor writing when a writer takes a unique character's words and thoughts, and reworks it in the name of his own personal politics.

Figures a Brit would use the Scots as an example of a fallacy though, lol.

 

[AresKeith]

So you don't dig the way the Qunari are written, I do. You might be overthinking it a bit though, it's fiction dude, and there are far more insane religions in real life. I mean God forbid we have a race with a unique religious fanaticism that actually makes them feel different from the other races who are damned near the same. It's certainly not the most insane cultural stance or concept of gender roles in history. Sten was puzzled, but his mind was hardly broken, and there's a lot of cultures with extremely strict gender roles throughout history.

Still ****** poor writing when a writer takes a unique character's words and thoughts, and reworks it in the name of his own personal politics.

Figures a Brit would use the Scots as an example of a fallacy though, lol.

 

 

 

Anyway, back on the real topic of the thread....

[In Exile]

So you don't dig the way the Qunari are written, I do. You might be overthinking it a bit though, it's fiction dude, and there are far more insane religions in real life. I mean God forbid we have a race with a unique religious fanaticism that actually makes them feel different from the other races who are damned near the same. It's certainly not the most insane cultural stance or concept of gender roles in history. Sten was puzzled, but his mind was hardly broken, and there's a lot of cultures with extremely strict gender roles throughout history.

Still ****** poor writing when a writer takes a unique character's words and thoughts, and reworks it in the name of his own personal politics.

Figures a Brit would use the Scots as an example of a fallacy though, lol.

 

 

We do have a "unique religious fanaticism that actually makes them feel different" from the other races. We have a race that works on Insane Troll Logic, operates using the No True Scotsman fallacy, and actually rejected the correspondence theory of truth. This is as close to an actually alien culture as we can get - they literally believe reality works on a different set of rules, and that things are what they define them to be - there's no IRL culture like that one. 

 

Regardless of your hang-up on the gender thing, the Qun isn't being inconsistent. The only way you can accuse them of retconning it is to fundamentally misunderstand the most basic thing about the Qun, which is how they tautologically define their identities. 

[bondari reloads.]

At this point DA4 needs to have a secret elite boss in some underground level called The Gaidversary, retconning at least fifteen codex entries upon unlocking its lair, and have it twirl the staff of violation while summoning wave after wave of geese carrying rainbow flags. After the fight, which can only be won by working through two pages of snarky dialogue, you find the Warden Commander's skeleton in a corner, having been dead since DA2. All those notes were in fact written by the Gaidversary. Which, to top it all off, gives crappy loot to boot.

[TheOgre]

At this point DA4 needs to have a secret elite boss in some underground level called The Gaidversary, retconning at least fifteen codex entries upon unlocking its lair, and have it twirl the staff of violation while summoning wave after wave of geese carrying rainbow flags. After the fight, which can only be won by working through two pages of snarky dialogue, you find the Warden Commander's skeleton in a corner, having been dead since DA2. All those notes were in fact written by the Gaidversary. Which, to top it all off, gives crappy loot to boot.

 

[Saphiron123]

We do have a "unique religious fanaticism that actually makes them feel different" from the other races. We have a race that works on Insane Troll Logic, operates using the No True Scotsman fallacy, and actually rejected the correspondence theory of truth. This is as close to an actually alien culture as we can get - they literally believe reality works on a different set of rules, and that things are what they define them to be - there's no IRL culture like that one. 

 

Regardless of your hang-up on the gender thing, the Qun isn't being inconsistent. The only way you can accuse them of retconning it is to fundamentally misunderstand the most basic thing about the Qun, which is how they tautologically define their identities. 

Why do you hate Scottish people so much?

[Saphiron123]

At this point DA4 needs to have a secret elite boss in some underground level called The Gaidversary, retconning at least fifteen codex entries upon unlocking its lair, and have it twirl the staff of violation while summoning wave after wave of geese carrying rainbow flags. After the fight, which can only be won by working through two pages of snarky dialogue, you find the Warden Commander's skeleton in a corner, having been dead since DA2. All those notes were in fact written by the Gaidversary. Which, to top it all off, gives crappy loot to boot.

He is the greatest enemy dragon age has ever known. Never seen a man push his politics so hard on a series that it felt preachy.

[Saphiron123]

 

Anyway, back on the real topic of the thread....

Yes, back to the topic at hand... if you've been watching the news, you know that transethnicism is a thing now with that lady whose been identifying as black for the last 20 years and who is head of the NAACP, do you think we'll get a transethnic character to go along with our demisexual companion?

[In Exile]

Yes, back to the topic at hand... if you've been watching the news, you know that transethnicism is a thing now with that lady whose been identifying as black for the last 20 years and who is head of the NAACP, do you think we'll get a transethnic character to go along with our demisexual companion?

 

We did. Her name was "Sera". 

[Natureguy85]

You're trying to assess the validity of the appearance in a game of one character based on 'real life' population,

with the argument, 'there are so few trans people in real life, if you encounter one in Thedas they must be 'shoved in''?

 

These are simply characters in a fantasy RPG world, I struggle to understand what 'shoved in' means and why the inclusion of this character would be an issue?

 

The real life statistics are only for reference. Thedas is certainly not bound by them. However, when including something so far out of the norm, not only in the real world but which has not been seen or referenced in the fictional one, and, honestly, looking at Bioware's recent history, the question naturally arises if this is included because it fits the setting and there is a compelling story to be told or if it's there as a "look how progressive we are" appeal.

 

Elven gods are a tiny percentage of the population in Thedas, but that didn't stop us from meeting at least two of them. Proportions of characters you meet =/= global proportions. It's not an SRS. 
 

Edit: In fact, I'm going to use that ratio from now on. # of actual gods > # of characters that are trans. 

 

Don't be silly. Elven gods make sense within the setting and it makes sense that the hero of this type of story would meet them. They weren't random encounters, were they? I was questioning if a transsexual person fit this setting.

 

 

If they want to have a woman living as a man in order to fight that's not an issue, personally though I hated how they changed the qunari just for that one character. 

I lover Sten's speeches about women fighters, they were great culture shock comedy moments. It's a pity they were retconned so Gaider could preach about LGBT issues.

 

Wait, is she just acting like a man to do the things men do, did she shift into men's roles in society, or did she actually get some sort of surgery or magical transformation to become a man? It was made to sound like the latter when it was brought up, which is why I questioned it. Again, I haven't played Inquisition, so I don't know and only go off what people say here.

 

You've misunderstood the Qun. I can't find my post cogent post on this issue but this is a sufficient answer for now:

 

The Arishok saying he lost no Qunari is not really "No True Scotsman." He's using the word Qunari to mean followers of the Qun, not a race. The Tal-Vashoth have left the Qun and therefore are not Qunari.