1942 réponses à ce sujet

[nightscrawl]

^ Yes, as I said, "it's only a matter of presentation."

[Hanako Ikezawa]

At any rate, that's not important in the grand scheme of things. As I said above, it's all about presentation. If the player has the illusion that there has been a decent amount of time to get to know the person and become close with them, then it can work.

 

I know you quoted the definition of demisexuality again, and I understand that that is what it is like for that person. BUT you have to consider the player's perspective since they are the one playing out the romance. If the NPC makes remarks along those lines, of forming an emotional bond and so forth, the player has to feel that there has been the time for that to happen or it will seem fake.

 

I can provide a counter example. For a female PC, the first, often controversial Anders flirt has him offer a warning that he would break your heart if they pursued anything. Regardless of the fact that this is just Anders being his f'd up self, it has always seemed absurd to me since we have only just met. That is mentally jarring and I supremely dislike the line.

 

It's not necessarily just about representing a demisexual NPC in the correct way, it's also about presenting the romance to the player in such a way that it can conform to demisexuality and make it seem "real" in that sense. You want the person to be a demisexual, not just an average-sexual person who might wait to have sex for whatever reason, which reasons you stated in your OP.

 

And whether it's in Mass Effect or Dragon Age, or some other game, I would generally prefer no labels. I readily admit that they can be convenient and even helpful, but I don't always think they are necessary. You stated that you initially thought that Merrill was demisexual, and that is based solely on the sequence of events rather than any such descriptions being used in the game.

 

It would actually be my preference for them to portray a demisexual romance without having the NPC explain it as such. Actions speak louder than words, and you can often see how a person is changing toward you as an emotional bond forms and gets stronger.

Well, the reason I posted that part of the OP was just to bring notice that for demisexuals a bond strong enough for sexual attraction to occur can form in a brief span of time if that time is intense enough. That said, I would personally much rather prefer it take place over a longer period of time, since then it would help differentiate the attraction from things like the heat of the moment or hero worship or other kinds of things that create strong relationships quickly. That way like you said the player can also feel that bond forming. That's why I suggested having it span multiple games with the first just building the bond and in the second feelings start to emerge, since with both Garrus and Tali them doing that really connected the players to them, particularly Garrus which the majority of players consider like a brother to Shepard even without the romance. 

 

As for them using the term specifically, while it is an option I agree that it would be better without using it as a label. Not only would it make the conversations seem more natural with them just describing how they feel rather than using the term and explaining, but it would also help it avoid arguments of tokenism or being preachy. 

[Natureguy85]

^ Yes, as I said, "it's only a matter of presentation."

 

And I am asking if that presentation matters for the purposes of properly portraying a demisexual character. Is being told the people are close enough or do those interactions need to be shown?

[nightscrawl]

And I am asking if that presentation matters for the purposes of properly portraying a demisexual character. Is being told the people are close enough or do those interactions need to be shown?

 

OH. Well this is where my lack of creativity comes in because I don't know how it would be portrayed in the game without spending the time to do that. Romances are optional content, so they're not going to devote significant time to it. BUT you can have the LI say certain things, "I feel really close to you," or act in a certain manner that does show this without having to get carried away.

 

Let's compare the Cullen and Dorian romances. Dorian does make a couple of overt, sexually flirty remarks that clearly indicate that he finds the Inquisitor sexually attractive. However, Cullen does not, even if his shyness can be interpreted in a similar manner. So here you have two men who approach the romance in different ways, as written to do so by the writers.

 

I'm not suggesting there has to be some sort of montage showing long walks on the beach, conversations, hand-holding and the like leading up to the romance lock-in. I don't think that's necessary. DA2 did present an unique problem in the way the follower interactions were presented because they were only limited to those quest interactions. Neither DAO nor DAI have that problem.

 

While I did previously state that the Dorian romance can move pretty fast, I have no problem in feeling that he and my Inquisitor grew close over time because of how the game, and companion interaction, is constructed. In fact, I deliberately control the pacing of the romance to conform to my head-canon for the pairing. My Inquisitor is more concerned over an emotional attachment (on both sides) and does consider Dorian a close friend before they have sex, but he is still sexually attracted to him from the outset.

 

As much as I like the character, and the romance, I find it difficult to come up with a suitable RP reason for why my character would be hanging around for three years for Fenris to get his head in order. Because that time jump is so awkward, without any sort of hint as to the interaction during those three years, I'm unable to come up with something other than my character pining away for him during all that time. To me, that is an example of there not being the appropriate level of closeness shown to justify the romance, and that had nothing to do with demisexuality.

[Natureguy85]

OH. Well this is where my lack of creativity comes in because I don't know how it would be portrayed in the game without spending the time to do that. Romances are optional content, so they're not going to devote significant time to it. BUT you can have the LI say certain things, "I feel really close to you," or act in a certain manner that does show this without having to get carried away.

 

Let's compare the Cullen and Dorian romances. Dorian does make a couple of overt, sexually flirty remarks that clearly indicate that he finds the Inquisitor sexually attractive. However, Cullen does not, even if his shyness can be interpreted in a similar manner. So here you have two men who approach the romance in different ways, as written to do so by the writers.

 

I'm not suggesting there has to be some sort of montage showing long walks on the beach, conversations, hand-holding and the like leading up to the romance lock-in. I don't think that's necessary. DA2 did present an unique problem in the way the follower interactions were presented because they were only limited to those quest interactions. Neither DAO nor DAI have that problem.

 

While I did previously state that the Dorian romance can move pretty fast, I have no problem in feeling that he and my Inquisitor grew close over time because of how the game, and companion interaction, is constructed. In fact, I deliberately control the pacing of the romance to conform to my head-canon for the pairing. My Inquisitor is more concerned over an emotional attachment (on both sides) and does consider Dorian a close friend before they have sex, but he is still sexually attracted to him from the outset.

 

As much as I like the character, and the romance, I find it difficult to come up with a suitable RP reason for why my character would be hanging around for three years for Fenris to get his head in order. Because that time jump is so awkward, without any sort of hint as to the interaction during those three years, I'm unable to come up with something other than my character pining away for him during all that time. To me, that is an example of there not being the appropriate level of closeness shown to justify the romance, and that had nothing to do with demisexuality.

 

Well while the romance content may be optional, the character interaction need not be, especially if it is in a character focused game like ME2, where the plot is really less important than what is going on between the characters. Hopefully on purpose rather than the plot being awful.

 

You describe perfectly the problem with the character relationships given the time jumps and that is not limited to the romances.

[nightscrawl]

^ Well yes, but the issue of demisexuality likely wouldn't come up outside of a game's romance, there is no reason for it.

[Natureguy85]

^ Well yes, but the issue of demisexuality likely wouldn't come up outside of a game's romance, there is no reason for it.

 

Well the topic was asking for a demisexual character, not for a round table discussion of demisexuality. Non-romantic character interaction and the development of the close bond are key to this portrayal.

[nightscrawl]

^ I suppose I'm just not understanding what your overall point is.

 

I think they are perfectly capable of showing non-romantic character bonding that can enable the player to feel that their PC has a close relationship with such a character before said character proclaims romantic and/or sexual interest. I consider my Inquisitor to be quite close with Cassandra and he has no romantic interest in her whatsoever.

 

The problem I have with the issue in general is that I don't see how much would change from a player perspective from the current way that romances are done unless the NPC explicitly states something along those lines. If the player doesn't know that the person is demisexual, then is just seems that the romance has developed in a certain way. For the player, it might not seem different from the socially awkward Merrill or a character like her.

[AnimalBoy]

I didn't even know this existed.

[Natureguy85]

^ I suppose I'm just not understanding what your overall point is.

 

I think they are perfectly capable of showing non-romantic character bonding that can enable the player to feel that their PC has a close relationship with such a character before said character proclaims romantic and/or sexual interest. I consider my Inquisitor to be quite close with Cassandra and he has no romantic interest in her whatsoever.

 

The problem I have with the issue in general is that I don't see how much would change from a player perspective from the current way that romances are done unless the NPC explicitly states something along those lines. If the player doesn't know that the person is demisexual, then is just seems that the romance has developed in a certain way. For the player, it might not seem different from the socially awkward Merrill or a character like her.

 

The point was that the relationship can not be properly established with the time skips of DA2.

 

Ideally, not much would change. The character being demisexual would simply show up in the way that particular character interacted with the PC and how the romance would be presented. Then the character would talk about how their feelings came about or whatever.

[GoldenGail3]

I support dis topic

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I didn't even know this existed.

I'm glad this thread let you learn something new.

[GoldenGail3]

I'm glad this thread let you learn something new.

That's a rare moment, Hanako. A rare moment of learning, lol.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

David Gaider mentions demisexuality in this video. The conversation where it among others is mentioned starts at 37:50. 

http://urplay.se/Pro...mangfald-i-spel

[nightscrawl]

^ Thanks for the time notation. I watched that whole video previously and didn't recall that mentioned.

 

And for anyone curious, his term two-soul sexuality apparently points to two-spirit, which seems to be more about gender identity than sexuality. Unless there is something else that I missed in searching.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

^ Thanks for the time notation. I watched that whole video previously and didn't recall that mentioned.

You're welcome.

[Gamedam Meister]

David Gaider mentions demisexuality in this video. The conversation where it among others is mentioned starts at 37:50. 

http://urplay.se/Pro...mangfald-i-spel

That's cool that he specifically mentions it as one of the few examples. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That's cool that he specifically mentions it as one of the few examples. 

Yeah, I'm glad he did that. Shows that some at Bioware have thought about it enough for him to mention it specifically.