1942 réponses à ce sujet

[Semyaza82]

Apparently I really don't get the difference between demisexual and a person needing to have a relationship with someone before engaging into anything (with or without prior sexual attraction to the person)

   Along with Dave's answer above just thought I'd try and clarify this particular point. If you were looking at the relationship from the outside there would be visible no difference. The difference is really just who, and when, a demisexual is sexual attracted to someone. The straight person who needs a relationship before doing anything sexual is still attracted to people they do not have a relationship with. The demisexual is not. 

[Ianamus]

I don't really view demisexuality as a sexuality. Not being attracted to someone until you form a close bond with them is something that I have heard a lot of people experience, and have experienced myself, despite also experiencing "primary" attraction.

 

As for including it in Bioware games... ehh. The games never really delve in-depth into characters sexual identities beyond the basics, and I wonder if it's going too far into something that has no bearing on the plot and very little bearing to the character as a whole.

 

I don't think we need a list of the intricacies of Cassandra's sexuality, as an example. It's just not necessary.

[Br3admax]

Considering that sexual orientation is the least important part about a person, in a video game of all things, eh. 

[Semyaza82]

Considering that sexual orientation is the least important part about a person, in a video game of all things, eh. 

Wherever you feel sexuality ranks in more generally can't deny that sexual orientation is pretty important when it comes to romance, which this thread is about.

[Br3admax]

Wherever you feel sexuality ranks in more generally can't deny that sexual orientation is pretty important when it comes to romance, which this thread is about.

The OP doesn't say a single thing about being able to romance them, though I already know that this is what they want. And considering the fact that demi-sexuality has next to no importance in romancing someone in a BioWare game, where smex is pretty much the end of it in most cases, the results would be the same. 

[sassecat]

If a person does not experience sexual attraction to anyone until forming a close emotional bond then they are demi. There is no sexual attraction to anyone except the person they have the feelings for.

 

If a person does experience sexual attraction to anyone without needing a close emotional bond then they are not demi. These people can be sexually attracted to someone after getting to know them, but they do experience sexual attraction for people without it.

 

 

That's the difference. How I've understood it, at least.

[Semyaza82]

The OP doesn't say a single thing about being able to romance them, though I already know that this is what they want. And considering the fact that demi-sexuality has next to no importance in romancing someone in a BioWare game, where smex is pretty much the end of it in most cases, the results would be the same. 

Your right, OP didn't specifically say they wanted them to be romancable - my bad. But I think pointing out that demisexuality would have had no effect on romances that has previously existed in a Bioware game sort of misses the point - OP is asking for it to be included in future. Through out the thread several people (including me) have acknowledged the difficulty of having including it in a meaningful way bu that doesn't mean it would be impossible to do.

 

As for the end result being the same, that might very well be true but doesn't change the desire for representation of a particular type of character. Take Dorian and Sera for example, the end result of them being there is no different than Leliana and Zevran being in DA:O, the player can have a m/m or f/f romance. The result is the same but the inclusion of an actual gay male and lesbian character is still something that a lot of people are very happy about. I think that really what OP is asking for.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Very good explanations, everyone. Especially you, berrieh.

 

I think that you are looking at it as one spectrum.  Think of it as two separate spectra:

 

Sexual Orientation (straight, gay, bisexual, etc)

Sexual Attraction (asexual, demisexual, etc)

 

in this case, a person would be on both spectra and they relate to each other, but don't directly contradict each other.  So you can be asexual and straight.  Or you can be demisexual and gay.  Or demisexual and bisexual.  Or demisexual and straight.  And there are many ways it can manifest based on the combinations.  Does this make sense?

 

The question I would have is:  Is there a term for people who show sexual attraction on that continuum?  Like, what do you call the common attraction pattern?

Yeah, like I said earlier a rather good way to imagine it is as an XY graph, with each axis representing a different spectrum to create a larger spectrum. 

 

To answer your question, the term I've seen used is 'sexual'.  

[Solid_Altair]

That is not the same thing as not being able to experience primary attraction. Women in particular are socialized this way; thus the question earlier in the thread "Are more women demisexuals?" That is likely unknowable, but really the question stems from the way women have been socialized to show attraction, not the way they actually are experiencing it. 

Yup. Though I suspect it's not just a cultural thing. I suppose it'd be easier to mistake a women in relationships for demisexuals, because they have less testorone and are likely to be more comfortable not pursuing or demonstrating other atractions they might feel. A demisexual man would probably stand out a lot more than a demisexual woman, for social and physiological reasons both.

 

As for being able to find out if there are more demisexual woman, that'd not be particularly hard. If it's possible to identify a demisexual, then idenfying said person's sex would be easy. And if there are indeed more woman, that might be a clue about what causes demisexuality.

[Pasquale1234]

Leliana starts coming onto you pretty early. I think her desire to wait has more to do with her personal soul-searching and the fact that her last lover turned on her, got her tortured, etc. Trust issues.

Alistair and Leliana both clearly experience sexual attraction before any emotional bond is built.

Sorry, but as I stated in my original post, I think that is highly subject to interpretation.

An expression of affection =/= an expression of sexual interest. Neither does interest in forming a deep friendship or emotional bond. I would also suggest that, as a bard, Leliana may have the presence of mind and skills needed to manipulate someone into not friend-zoning her even if she herself is not quite ready to go there.

I can't speak for the relationship arc with a male warden, as I have not experienced it. I can speak only for the particular relationship path(s) I have experienced. Someone mentioned the 3-or-4some with Isabela, but it looked to me like Leliana went along with it so as not to be excluded from the warden's sexcapades, not necessarily because she was sexually intrigued by the prospect. She certainly displayed a distinct jealous / possessive streak when it came to her relationship with the warden.

Ultimately, what we think we observe in the behaviors of others is very much subject to interpretation. There are a couple of influential factors that I think may be worth mentioning:

1) I think women in general have a much broader spectrum with expressions of platonic affection than men generally do.

2) People who are on the "sexual" end of the spectrum are probably a lot more likely to read things as sexual triggers than those who are closer to the demisexual / asexual end of the spectrum.

And no, I'm not trying to suggest that Leliana was intentionally written to be demisexual - only that she can be interpreted as such. I don't know whether authorial intent (WOG) should carry that much weight.

"All worthy work is open to interpretations the author did not intend. Art isn't your pet — it's your kid. It grows up and talks back to you." - Joss Whedon

[daveliam]

Very good explanations, everyone. Especially you, berrieh.

 

Yeah, like I said earlier a rather good way to imagine it is as an XY graph, with each axis representing a different spectrum to create a larger spectrum. 

 

To answer your question, the term I've seen used is 'sexual'.  

 

 

I guess it's a wording thing that I struggle with.  You can be demi-bisexual or abisexual or bisexual?  But wouldn't a demi-bisexual person still be bisexual?  So someone can be bisexual, but being bisexual doesn't mean one's sexual?  Like, how do you describe it accurately without having to explain it?

[Br3admax]

Your right, OP didn't specifically say they wanted them to be romancable - my bad. But I think pointing out that demisexuality would have had no effect on romances that has previously existed in a Bioware game sort of misses the point - OP is asking for it to be included in future. Through out the thread several people (including me) have acknowledged the difficulty of having including it in a meaningful way bu that doesn't mean it would be impossible to do.

No, it's just, from a gameplay point of view, kind of pointless to do. Most romances already work in a very similar way, and until told, the OP already assumed a few people were already like that. So, yeah, it would have next to no impact. 

 

As for the end result being the same, that might very well be true but doesn't change the desire for representation of a particular type of character. 

Representation of something you have no business really caring or knowing about isn't representation. 

 

Take Dorian and Sera for example, the end result of them being there is no different than Leliana and Zevran being in DA:O, the player can have a m/m or f/f romance. The result is the same but the inclusion of an actual gay male and lesbian character is still something that a lot of people are very happy about. I think that really what OP is asking for.

 

Except homosexuality is very apparent and is much more character driven than not feeling any type of sexual attraction. It's not just easier to do, it's actually able to be shown. Do not treat them as one and the same. Demi-sexuality, as it stands, is something that will go unnoticed by most, unimplementable in any significant way, and in the end, very much comparable to all other romances. It's an all around loss for a company that needs to manage resources. 

[BroBear Berbil]

So now BioWare not only needs to consider making different sexual orientations but also cover the spectrum of peoples' libidos? Where does it end? How about an otherkin NPC and you have to romance all of their headmates as well?

 

Why not look for a dating simulation game?

[daveliam]

No, it's just, from a gameplay point of view, kind of pointless to do. Most romances already work in a very similar way, and until told, the OP already assumed a few people were already like that. So, yeah, it would have next to no impact. 

 

I wonder if it would be enough to have a Merrill type romance that is just left ambiguous and never 'defined' any way specifically?  Kallen was happy with the representation that she thought she was getting with Merrill until Gaider confirmed her as bisexual.  At least I think that's the case.  So maybe something like Merrill without the confirmation would work?

 

Also, going back to semantics, why does confirming Merrill as bisexual rule her out as demi-bisexual?  Couldn't she still be demi-bisexual?  Nothing that Gaider said would contradict that, right?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

No, it's just, from a gameplay point of view, kind of pointless to do. Most romances already work in a very similar way, and until told, the OP already assumed a few people were already like that. So, yeah, it would have next to no impact. 

No, I assumed one person in Bioware games was like that. 

 

I guess it's a wording thing that I struggle with.  You can be demi-bisexual or abisexual or bisexual?  But wouldn't a demi-bisexual person still be bisexual?  So someone can be bisexual, but being bisexual doesn't mean one's sexual?  Like, how do you describe it accurately without having to explain it?

Well, to use an example: 

 

Imagine a man who has two friends, one male and one female. The person has developed a strong emotional bond with both to the point where sexual attraction would occur for demisexuals. 

If the man only develops said attraction for the female friend, he could be demi-heterosexual. 

If the man only develops said attraction for the male friend, he could be demi-homosexual.

If the man develops an attraction to either or both, he could be demi-bisexual. 

 

I wonder if it would be enough to have a Merrill type romance that is just left ambiguous and never 'defined' any way specifically?  Kallen was happy with the representation that she thought she was getting with Merrill until Gaider confirmed her as bisexual.  At least I think that's the case.  So maybe something like Merrill without the confirmation would work?

 

Also, going back to semantics, why does confirming Merrill as bisexual rule her out as demi-bisexual?  Couldn't she still be demi-bisexual?  Nothing that Gaider said would contradict that, right?

We already know Bioware has no desire to go back to having those kinds of romances, or at least in Dragon Age or Mass Effect franchises.

 

As for ruling it out, Gaider was very adamant when he said she was bisexual at GaymerX, trying to expunge any ideas that she was anything other than just that. That is why that WoG I tend to put above ingame evidence due to his conviction about it. 

[Semyaza82]

Numbering added by me

 

1) No, it's just, from a gameplay point of view, kind of pointless to do. Most romances already work in a very similar way, and until told, the OP already assumed a few people were already like that. So, yeah, it would have next to no impact. 

 

 

2) Representation of something you have no business really caring or knowing about isn't representation. 

 

3) Except homosexuality is very apparent and is much more character driven than not feeling any type of sexual attraction. It's not just easier to do, it's actually able to be shown. Do not treat them as one and the same. Demi-sexuality, as it stands, is something that will go unnoticed by most, unimplementable in any significant way, and in the end, very much comparable to all other romances. It's an all around loss for a company that needs to manage resources. 

1) No one is suggesting it should be earth shattering. I'm not demisexual, the inclusion of a character who is would mean pretty much nothing to me on a personal level but to Op and perhaps others it would matter.

 

2) The fact this thread exists shows that at least one person does care about it. As for it not being any ones business, I don't think that really applies when talking about a hypothetical fictional character. You stating that it isn't representation doesn't change the fact that is what Kallen is asking for.

 

3) I was not saying that homosexuality and being demisexual were the same, I was pointing out the fact that the end result not looking terribly different doesn't change a desire for representation of type of character.

You're right it would be unnoticed by most - I'm not sure what the problem with that is. OP didn't say 'Please make sure that everyone playing the game can't possible fail to notice that this character is demisexual'.

As for resources, I don't understand what extra resources you think they would need to employ? All OP is asking is that when they come to thinking up characters for the next game they consider having one that is demisexual.

[daveliam]

Well, to use an example: 

 

Imagine a man who has two friends, one male and one female. The person has developed a strong emotional bond with both to the point where sexual attraction would occur for demisexuals. 

If the man only develops said attraction for the female friend, he could be demi-heterosexual. 

If the man only develops said attraction for the male friend, he could be demi-homosexual.

If the man develops an attraction to either or both, he could be demi-bisexual.

 

 

I guess my question is this:  If I said, "Hey bisexuals, raise your hands!", would a demi-bisexual raise his/her hand?  I guess this might be a case by case situation, but I just don't know if I'm seeing how 'bisexual' and 'demi-bisexual' are different from an external view point.  I understand the internal identification aspect that would be different.  But how would I, as an outsider, see a difference between them in order to identify that one person is demi-bisexual and the other is bisexual?  I only ask because it seems that, for visible representation, that would need to be pinned down a bit.

 

As for ruling it out, Gaider was very adamant when he said she was bisexual at GaymerX, trying to expunge any ideas that she was anything other than just that. That is why that WoG I tend to put above ingame evidence due to his conviction about it.

 

But did he actually rule out that she wasn't demi-bisexual or are you interpreting his words that way?  Wasn't his response in regard to the idea that she was playersexual and he was clarifying that her sexuality did not change depending on the gender of the PC?  I don't think he was referring to the romantic spectrum at all, right?  If those are indeed two separate spectra, wouldn't his statement only be about her sexual orientation and not her romantic orientation (Is that the right phrase for it?)?  I wonder if you revisited his exact words and looked at it now that it's not a fresh wound, if you might be able to see that there is still room for Merrill to represent you.

[Mihura]

Got to love the "I am already represented, the others could just shut it" this is the typical argument that people back in the day got, when they want other things other than hetero for romance. Also Merrill is bisexual and I am not going to erase that either, she is not demisexual and that is fine. 

 

Do I want representation, sure but it was something that was not a priority to me (and it is more than fine to be to others) but now I sure hope they do it, just to shut some people up.

As a demisexual I like this idea and I supported Kallen 100%.

[daveliam]

Got to love the "I am already represented, the others could just shut it" this is the typical argument that people back in the day got, when they want other things other than hetero for romance. Also Merrill is bisexual and I am not going to erase that either, she is not demisexual and that is fine. 

 

Do I want representation, sure but it was something that was not a priority to me (and it is more than fine to be to others) but now I sure hope they do it, just to shut some people up.

As a demisexual I like this idea and I supported Kallen 100%.

 

So this is the stuff that I get confused about:  One of you is saying that people can be both demisexual and bisexual and the other is saying that you can't.  I actually went on a different source to see if I could figure it out and that source (an asexuality non-profit) identified that a person could be both.  So why are people ruling Merrill out as being both?  It's not mutually exclusive, right?  So, do we know for sure that she's not demisexual?  We just know that she's bisexual. 

 

I hope that my comments aren't coming across as a means to silence the request.  I'm genuinely interested in knowing more.  I'm hoping that my questions are coming across as constructive criticism in order to clarify the request and help people to understand the topic better.  Not as, "I'm going to poke holes in your logic in a way to discredit you".

[Mihura]

So this is the stuff that I get confused about:  One of you is saying that people can be both demisexual and bisexual and the other is saying that you can't.  I actually went on a different source to see if I could figure it out and that source (an asexuality non-profit) identified that a person could be both.  So why are people ruling Merrill out as being both?  It's not mutually exclusive, right?  So, do we know for sure that she's not demisexual?  We just know that she's bisexual. 

 

I hope that my comments aren't coming across as a means to silence the request.  I'm genuinely interested in knowing more.  I'm hoping that my questions are coming across as constructive criticism in order to clarify the request and help people to understand the topic better.  Not as, "I'm going to poke holes in your logic in a way to discredit you".

 

Hummmm i really avoid the demi-bisexual because it gets confusing, I prefer the demi-biromantic or demi-homoromantic.

I do this because demisexual is a sexuality base on sexual attraction or the lack of it, I guess it is more ease to explain to people without going to the romantic spectrum but is sure not bisexuality, although it can be in bisexuality too, for example you can fall for a certain gender with emotional attachment and at the same time to other gender with only sexual attraction.

Bottom line sure Merrill could be demi-bisexual but David Gaider only label her as bisexual, so I am not gonna to take that way because there are bisexuals like Merrill too.

PS: Not responding to you but for the general posts I have seen in the past and in here, saying demis do not exist.

[daveliam]

Hummmm i really avoid the demi-bisexual because it gets confusing, I prefer the demi-biromantic or demi-homoromantic.

I do this because demisexual is a sexuality base on sexual attraction or the lack of it, I guess it is more ease to explain to people without going to the romantic spectrum but is sure not bisexuality, although it can be in bisexuality too, for example you can fall for a certain gender with emotional attachment and at the same time to other gender with only sexual attraction.

Bottom line sure Merrill could be demi-bisexual but David Gaider only label her as bisexual, so I am not gonna to take that way because there are bisexuals like Merrill too.

 

This makes sense to me.  I guess my point was more in response to the "Gaider confirmed her not to be demisexual".  If I'm accurately understanding it, this is untrue.  He confirmed her to be bisexual, but her romantic identification is still ambiguous.  Don't get me wrong.  I'm not saying, "Well, she could be demi-bisexual, so there's your representation.  End of discussion."  I'm more trying to figure out if there is anything (in game or out of it) that refutes her being demi-bisexual.  It sounds likes no.  So if we were to have another romance that plays out just like hers, could that represent demi-bisexuality or would a dev need to Word of God his/her sexuality in order for it to "count" as representation?

[Mihura]

This makes sense to me.  I guess my point was more in response to the "Gaider confirmed her not to be demisexual".  If I'm accurately understanding it, this is untrue.  He confirmed her to be bisexual, but her romantic identification is still ambiguous.  Don't get me wrong.  I'm not saying, "Well, she could be demi-bisexual, so there's your representation.  End of discussion."  I'm more trying to figure out if there is anything (in game or out of it) that refutes her being demi-bisexual.  It sounds likes no.  So if we were to have another romance that plays out just like hers, could that represent demi-bisexuality or would a dev need to Word of God his/her sexuality in order for it to "count" as representation?

 

It needs word of God too because all the other sexualities got them. So no I do see Merrill as representation and hope in the future we can see more.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I guess my question is this:  If I said, "Hey bisexuals, raise your hands!", would a demi-bisexual raise his/her hand?  I guess this might be a case by case situation, but I just don't know if I'm seeing how 'bisexual' and 'demi-bisexual' are different from an external view point.  I understand the internal identification aspect that would be different.  But how would I, as an outsider, see a difference between them in order to identify that one person is demi-bisexual and the other is bisexual?  I only ask because it seems that, for visible representation, that would need to be pinned down a bit.

Yeah, I can't accurately predict how many would raise their hands, especially since demisexuality was unknown to most on here, one of the more knowledgeable gaming forums on the subject of sexualities. Even I didn't know about it until this year. 

 

As for how to have it more easily identifiable, one of the best ideas I've heard is by keeping the romance a secret. That way when things go down, people wouldn't know of it beforehand and thus won't think "Oh, they are just shy/playing hard to get/etc." 

 

Another idea is flirting. Since the site about it I got my info from says that: 

 

6. Flirting doesn’t make sense to you.  

 

Maybe it goes right over your head, or it makes you uncomfortable. The idea of flirting seems pointless—why do that when you can have a proper, deep conversation and get to the know the person instead? Maybe when someone gets flirty, you just have no idea how to respond and would prefer to run in the other direction. You feel frustrated that you can’t just talk to someone normally—why do they have to hit on you? Your friends point out that people were flirting with you or checking out out later, or you realize only belatedly. You tend to avoid situations, like parties or clubs, where you can expect lots of flirting, and if you do, you’re either on high alert or happily oblivious.

 

So by having the character never really give flirts, and not understand or not know how to react to flirts by the protagonist, would be a little but probably effective way to help provide supporting evidence. 

 

That's one of the main reasons I made this thread: to explain demisexuality and also give a place where people can give ideas on how it can be shown in a character.

[Han Shot First]

If I understand correctly, you can be demisexual and only feel sexual attraction to the opposite sex (if you know them well), or the same sex (if you know them well), or both genders (if you know them well).

So yeah, you can be a heterosexual demisexual. Called Demi-Heterosexual or something.

 

People have a tendency to make things more complicated than they are. I'm a fan of the acronym KISS.

 

Lets say there is a guy who is only physically and romantically attracted to red-haired women. While his extreme preference for gingers might place him a bit outside the norm, it wouldn't be inaccurate to say he's heterosexual. Would we really need to create a separate subgroup of heterosexual to describe his preferences?

 

So that's sort of my issue with demisexual. Depending on how it is described it either sounds like someone who is asexual, or someone who is straight, bi, or gay who doesn't take sex lightly.

[In Exile]

People have a tendency to make things more complicated than they are. I'm a fan of the acronym KISS.

Lets say there is a guy who is only physically and romantically attracted to red-haired women. While his extreme preference for gingers might place him a bit outside the norm, it wouldn't be inaccurate to say he's heterosexual. Would we really need to create a separate subgroup of heterosexual to describe his preferences?

So that's sort of my issue with demisexual. Depending on how it is described it either sounds like someone who is asexual, or someone who is straight, bi, or gay who doesn't take sex lightly.

What if there's particular stigma attached to red headed women, or to being attracted to them as a man? What if it's impossible for a subset of men to be turned on unless there's a red-headed woman involved?

While you're right that a preference isn't really worth demarcating, the issue here goes beyond mere preference.