133 ответов в этой теме

[Johnny Shepard]

This is not a troll-thread or a complaint, just my feedback that I have wanted to write since I started testing the Keep. Please respect that!

 

There are so many choices they just ignore to put in the Keep. What happened to "better to many than to few"? The first time I looked through the Keep I got depressed because so many important ones were missing wile lots of pointless ones (like if Hawke blackmailed Thrask or returned a ring to an NPC). I hoped they would put in a lot of them before it became open Beta but now it looks like this is what we get and I'm not happy about that at all. It feels like most of the hours I spent in the game making decisions as I wanted them are now pointless and gone. With the old save-import system we at least didn't know what was or wasn't carried over but now we see it all and we see all that are missing. Like the Orlaisian Warden (who will be mentioned in DA:I), the Boons, most of our choices in Awakening and what happened to the companions, Jowan's fate, how you saved Conner, if you killed the Andraste-dragon, if the Warden slept with Isabela in DAO and if anybody joined him/her, what Hawke told Leliana in DA2 that the divine should do, what sort of relationship you had with your companions (friendship or rival), if you sold the elves in Denerim to slavery, if your human Warden hated elves or elven Warden hated humans, any kind of hint to the Warden's personality really and so many many other.

 

Still, there are many impressing things about the Keep like how it keep track of your choices and makes it easy for you to make a new save and I can't wait for DA:I. I just had hoped for so much more and my hear breaks over all that is missing.

 

Now, I'm really sentimental, I thought carefully about every decision I made could replay and hour just because I wasn't satisfied about that one dialogue choice. In fact I replayed half of DAO because of one thing in the Deep Roads. I never expected those small things to matter in the Keep and I expected lots of things to be missing but not this much.

 

I know it's too late for DA:I but I hope there will be a lot of new choices put in for future games.

[katerinafm]

1. You consider Isabela sleeping with you to be the super important plot point that should be included in the Keep? Pretty sure Isabela has forgotten about it by now

 

2. You CAN say how you saved or didn't save Connor.

 

3. The Keep has choices that you actually picked in the game. The Warden hating elves or humans is not a choice in game, it's a pattern that only the player sees/plans.

 

4. The Keep has over, what, 300 decisions? I'd say that's plenty, and they are actively adding more with each update. They started with far less.

 

5. Also important to note that while the Keep has a lot of choices for you to make that help shape your worldstate and remake your playthrough, at the end of the day the Keep is there to help you carry over said worldstate to DAI and future titles, which means there has to be a priority in which decisions matter and which don't. For example, what Hawke told Leliana about what the divine should do doesn't matter, considering the beginning of DAI. They can't add everything, as it takes a lot of work and resources that we as users obviously don't get to see. I think it's safe to say that it's not as simple as just adding a picture on the tapestry and adding some text to it. There is a lot of backround work happening too.

 

6. Adding more choices for Awakening would be nice, yeah. I really don't think what we have now is anything to break your heart over though. They could have easily just said 'yeah sorry, new engine, no save importing, deal with it', but they didn't. I think we should be happy for all the hard work being put into the Keep.

[Devil's Avocado]

I hoped they would put in a lot of them before it became open Beta but now it looks like this is what we get and I'm not happy about that at all. It feels like most of the hours I spent in the game making decisions as I wanted them are now pointless and gone. With the old save-import system we at least didn't know what was or wasn't carried over but now we see it all and we see all that are missing.

 

Would the ignorance of not knowing what was carried over really had been better? If you knew the truth about which choices were carried over from DA:O in the old import system, you would have been extremely disappointed. The Keep is a much better representation of our worlds than the save files would have been.

They did add quite a good number of tiles during the closed beta and also had polls about which choices to add such as the fate of the elves and whether they were sold to slavery. The Keep is dynamic in the sense that they can always add more choices in the future and based upon people submitting their feedback, this could show the developers which choices impact us more and may have a better chance of showing up in a later game/DLC.
 

[Tenz83]

The thing is at this point the Keep team is probably prioritizing functionality over plot choices since the game has gone gold. They are most likely trying to get rid of the known issues rather than adding plot choices. I'm sure that they will do more polls and add more choices for the games after they fix the issues for the Keep

[Gadzilla]

You have to remember, it's not just adding choices. It's adding choices that will have an impact on inquisition. If Andraste Dragon isn't mentioned, it could mean that it wouldn't be mentioned in the game.

[Andraste_Reborn]

The other factor to consider is the risk of confusing more casual fans or people who have never played the previous games with too many things. At the moment the Keep has about a hundred and thirty tiles, and I don't think going over one-fifty for DAO/Awakening/DA2 would be the best idea.

 

At this point, I'd be happy if they added a tile for the Orlesian Warden, Velanna and Sigrun and just left it there. Everyone is going to have their own idea of which of the side decisions are important, but I think there's enough there to give texture and distinction to our worldstates without leaving people overwhelmed.

[cindercatz]

I agree a lot of tiles aren't really necessary or should be combined with other tiles. Like the returns tiles in the Denerim section could probably be condensed down to 'How was the Landsmeet vote decided'?, with an option including the returns. A lot of things that were far more important to my characters and who they were aren't present, particularly the major origin choices and their relationship to their families, friends, and allies. I also agree that in some cases, tiles representing declarative statements that do not reflect specific choices would be far more helpful in determining how characters should be represented in future games.

 

In the hero/player character sections, there should be character building questions. Questions like 'How did the Warden feel about the elves and the Dalish?' and 'What religion if any did the Warden follow?', 'Did the Warden actively fight slavery?' or more specific questions like 'Did the Warden favor mage independence?', 'Which best describes the Warden's general social demeanor? Sense of humor?' 'What was the character's primary personal motivation? (Justice, Compassion, Advancement, Greed, Survival)'. And relevant questionaires for Hawke, the Inquisitor, the Orlesian Warden, etc.

 

There need to be general character building questions that will allow the games to faithfully present our characters, so that in a given general scenario X, the game will know whether our characters would do A, B, C, compartmentalized so that it remains a clear, simple set of likely, consistent outcomes. So the process becomes streamlined, not the characters themselves. Then we could finally break this needless restriction on returning player characters. The Keep can do that. It's a lot less complex than trying to divine intent from sets of disparate scenarios the way the in-game system does. It opens up a lot more storytelling possibilities.

 

edit: Also, it's a lot less confusing for new people than specific scenarios from the game that they don't have enough context for. And since those declarative options are about future portrayal and don't void any previous game options, there's no need for choice dependencies. A character that sold the elves into slavery but is declared to actively fight it, for example, would become a redemptive character in the future should they be present in a future scene where it's relative. It just becomes a new binary factor, with no cascading effects.

[KaiserShep]

I must say that I'm a little baffled at a couple of the choices available in the Keep. I mean, how could curing the mabari and feeding the prisoner possibly make a difference?

[AshenEndymion]

I must say that I'm a little baffled at a couple of the choices available in the Keep. I mean, how could curing the mabari and feeding the prisoner possibly make a difference?

 

Feeding the prisoner can't really, I agree... But if you don't cure the Malbari, you cannot get Dog as a companion(unless you're a Human Noble).

 

As for the OP, I completely to disagree with the premise that "a lot of important choices are missing while pointless choices are included".  Not least because it's all subjective as to what's important or even worth including in the Keep.   You didn't really offer any examples of what you think is important that is missing, but of all the minor choices that are missing from the Keep you did offer as examples, I'd only agree that friendship/rivalry is the only thing worth including...

[cindercatz]

Feeding the prisoner can't really, I agree... But if you don't cure the Malbari, you cannot get Dog as a companion(unless you're a Human Noble).

 

As for the OP, I completely to disagree with the premise that "a lot of important choices are missing while pointless choices are included".  Not least because it's all subjective as to what's important or even worth including in the Keep.   You didn't really offer any examples of what you think is important that is missing, but of all the minor choices that are missing from the Keep you did offer as examples, I'd only agree that friendship/rivalry is the only thing worth including...

How do you feel about the idea of character building questions for player characters and their views, though? So far, the Keep shies away from this. I think the Ostagar prisoner choice is only there as an indirect way to divine some of this through an in-game choice.

[AshenEndymion]

How do you feel about the idea of character building questions for player characters and their views, though? So far, the Keep shies away from this. I think the Ostagar prisoner choice is only there as an indirect way to divine some of this through an in-game choice.

 
I like the theory of the idea, the problem is that you can't really implement it in the Keep in any accurate way.  You could with Hawke, to an extent, because it's built into the game.  Hawke has one of three personality types in the game... But even so, no combination of Keep choices can allow the Keep to determine why a Hawke did what he did.  Only that he did it.  It's even harder to determine why a Warden did anything, just based on choices.
 
Take the Ostagar prisoner.  Why would a Warden kill him?  I can come up with five different reasons:  Dislike humans, dislike non-mages, dislike cowards, dislike whiners, and jerkass Warden.  And whether or not any of those reasons are mutually exclusive depends on the player.  And that's a "minor" choice.  I can, and have, created Wardens that have murdered elves every time they have had the opportunity, but it wasn't ever because said Warden hated elves...
 
The only way to really include such a thing would be to start adding dialogue tiles to the Keep("did the Warden/Hawke ever say this").  And that would be a nightmare to verify when/how said things are said, and how they'll never show up...  Not to mention it'd bring in "well why isn't this minor dialogue sequence in the Keep" arguments...

[cindercatz]

I agree it couldn't define why a character did something in a previous game, but that's why the character questions should be independent from the existing choices. But what it would allow you to do is have much more direct influence in how those characters are presented in the future, so that they can be translated as faithfully as possible. But each view has to be direct and distinct from the other to keep it simple and prevent conflicts.

[Natureguy85]

You lost me when you claim important things were not in the keep and then you mention wanting Isabela from Origins. Why do so many people want that in the keep?

[Undead Han]

We'll have to see how this all plays out in the game. I'm assuming that all the choices in the Keep have an impact on quests or characters in DA:I.

 

Stuff like whether or not Isabela slept with the Warden (or had a threesome or foursome involving him or her) probably isn't in the Keep because it wouldn't have an impact on anything in DA:I. The same with Jowan's fate. Do we even know whether Jowan or Isabela is in DA:I? They very well may not be, meaning there would be no reason to have a tile about either of those choices in the Keep.

[cindercatz]

You lost me when you claim important things were not in the keep and then you mention Isabela from Origins. Why do so many people want that in the keep?

Because it establishes the nature of Isabella's relationship with the Warden, Zevran, and Leliana (and Hawke to Zev etc.) for any mentions or shared scenes in the future, like when she meets them in DA2. Character relationship details like that help bring the world to life.

 

edit: Yeah, not in DA:I if it's not there, but as an establishing factor if they ever come up again. The Warden and Zev aren't in DA:I directly, supposedly.

[phantomrachie]

We'll have to see how this all plays out in the game. I'm assuming that all the choices in the Keep have an impact on quests or characters in DA:I.

 

Stuff like whether or not Isabela slept with the Warden (or had a threesome or foursome involving him or her) probably isn't in the Keep because it wouldn't have an impact on anything in DA:I. The same with Jowan's fate. Do we even know whether Jowan or Isabela is in DA:I? They very well may not be, meaning there would be no reason to have a tile about either of those choices in the Keep.

 

Basically this. 

 

And remember the Keep can be easily updated  by BioWare, so if suddenly Jowan's fate or whether you slept with Isabela in DA:O becomes important then they can add it.

[KefkaGestahl]

People are going to be unsatisfied because the keep ruins the suspense.  As glitchy as the previous imports have been for BioWare games, people were excited to learn what would and wouldn't have an impact.  Hell, there are things in Dragon Age II that I didn't even know got imported.  So many variables.  According to the wikia, the boon you selected actually did get referenced in that game.

 

With the keep being what it is, there is no surprise.  If something isn't listed in the keep, Inquisition can't acknowledge it.  So hopes get dashed and people are left unfulfilled.  One of my more memorable playthroughs involved a city elf who was extremely despicable.  I can't recreate that despicable personality in the keep.  I can't sell my friends to slavery or allow them to get raped for money.

[krisykins1]

Hi, I would like to know where to find the warden doing the blood ritual with Morrigan , so that the Grey Wardens would not die. That is important, what happened to the baby?.. I did go into the mirror to be with Morrigan , and our god baby. I hope they address this in inquisition, because it was lest out in D.A 2.

[cindercatz]

...ech .. I will say I have a couple very, very different Wardens that are going to look almost like gender flipped, alter-origin  carbon copies in the Keep because most of what distinguishes them isn't in the Keep.

 

Better to be disappointed now than disappointed by DA:I itself. I like knowing, so we can have a voice in what's more important to us for future games.

[cindercatz]

Hi, I would like to know where to find the warden doing the blood ritual with Morrigan , so that the Grey Wardens would not die. That is important, what happened to the baby?.. I did go into the mirror to be with Morrigan , and our god baby. I hope they address this in inquisition, because it was lest out in D.A 2.

The ritual is in the DA:O companions section, and the mirror is the witchhunt tile just before the DA2 section on the opening tapestry.

[Senjougahara Hitagi]

You lost me when you claim important things were not in the keep and then you mention Isabela from Origins. Why do so many people want that in the keep?

 

I wouldn't say I want specifically this one but it had a significant effect on DA2. And I think every decision that was important enough to be imported to DA2 should be in the Keep. 

[DAJB]

I think we have to be careful about what the Keep is, what it does, and what gamers want/expect it to be.

 

It seems to me, its primary function (at the moment) is to carry forward decisions from DA:O and DA2 into DA:I. From that perspective, it can be argued the Keep has too many decision tiles, rather than too few. We know that some of the tiles in the Tapestry will not impact on DA:I because they've been added after the game was already finished and the shiny game disks were busy being packaged up for retail. There's a good and a bad side to that. When new Keepers go through the Tapestry for the first time, a few have said the number of decisions they have to recreate is pretty daunting and, when they play the game and discover that some of those have no effect on DA:I, they may feel that was time wasted. On the plus side, having decisions which are not reflected in DA:I does mean that, no, we don't know in advance exactly what decisions will or won't have repercussions for DA:I. In a way, the sheer number of choices here does preserve that element of surprise you get from a save game mechanism.

 

Its second function (again, at the moment) is simply to recreate a record of the decisions players made in DA:O and DA2 and, from that perspective, many Keepers are saying they want even more tiles added so that it reflects those games even more accurately and more completely, irrespective of whether those tiles have an impact on DA:I or not.

 

Trying to reconcile the wants of gamers with different (and conflicting!) objectives is always going to be a bit of a juggling act!

 

And then, of course, there are Bioware's own plans for the Keep. We know they have great plans for it to be so much more than it is at the moment, feeding into future games and add-ons, and there is even talk of it being automatically updated with decisions made. From that perspective, I suspect there's another juggling act to be done. On the one hand, the more content there is in the Keep, the more they have to draw on in the future. However, it can also be the case that the more content there is, the greater the chance of conflicts, bugs and glitches ... i.e. just as in the games!

 

Whether the Keep can ever be all things to all men is doubtful (in my opinion!). I certainly don't envy Bioware the task they've set themselves, but it is ambitious and I feel we should all wish them the best of luck!

[SpecH82]

Why not just look at this way?

 

Would you have played DAI if the keep didn’t exist? I bet you would, so look at the keep as a bonus or an extra, to give your DAI world a personal touch.

 

Though I agree with you about Isabela, I want all the choices you can make with/about Isabela throughout DAO and DA2, but that’s just because she and Varric where my fav characters from DA2!

[Natureguy85]

Because it establishes the nature of Isabella's relationship with the Warden, Zevran, and Leliana (and Hawke to Zev etc.) for any mentions or shared scenes in the future, like when she meets them in DA2. Character relationship details like that help bring the world to life.

 

edit: Yeah, not in DA:I if it's not there, but as an establishing factor if they ever come up again. The Warden and Zev aren't in DA:I directly, supposedly.

 

No it might give them one line of dialogue like running into Fist on Omega if you let him live in Mass Effect. That could be used for fun, but it's hardly important.

 

Isabella wasn't important in DA:O. She was there to teach you the duelist specialization and make 14 year old boys giggle about threesomes. She became a party member because the devs felt like elevating a minor character for some continuity and connection rather than write a brand new one. With how Isabella gets around (pun intended), it's believable.

[crowskin]

I've played DAO through more times than I care to count, and never in any of those did I encounter Isabela. To say that she's an "important" choice that missing from the Keep seems overstating it.

The major stuff is there. More is still to be added, but nothing that affects DAI will be included for obvious reasons.