133 réponses à ce sujet

[bel3338]

 

1) And those characters remembering it were just flavor dialogue. That can be fun and interesting, but it's not important and hardly worthy of continued recognition. It doesn't shape their character in any way. Also, the Keep creates World States, not character states. You are shaping the world, not every minor characteristic or decision of a character that doesn't actually appear in the game (which is a different issue entirely.) If it was advertised as that, then that's another problem, but I personally knew exactly what I was getting.

 

2) There is a tile for Isolde being sacrificed, which would indicate blood magic. Who went into the Fade isn't really relevant, unless it was going to come up again. Your Oghren example is a good one because he was a squadmate, but that doesn't mean it will be important again. Even there it only mattered to Oghren personally.

 

3) You never shaped your Warden's character except in your own head. You may have done bad things to Elves every chance you got, but you decide if your Warden hates Elves or is just a jerk or whatever. Without a system to track it, like a morality or Paragon/Renegade system, that really can't be carried over the way you'd like.

 

 

You took the words right out of my mouth, it is a world we're talking about. The idiosyncrasies of played characters will only ever be important to a select few of us gamers, most just play without giving personality much thought. And us few to whom it does matter will remember those intricacies anyway, regardless of it being explicitly stated within sequels.

Personality in and of itself doesn't impact the world anyway, so reflecting that in future games would be near impossible - it's their actions, not the motivations which are remembered (and given the world of Thedas is a medieval analogue with similar poor record keeping and ability to disseminate news, even those actions might not be known far and wide; recall Leliana mentioning that she would have to be more careful close to Ferelden, implying she is not known further afield). The mind and motivation of a person is only ever known to that person (in this case the player as it is our creation) - even those closest to them never know the workings of a persons mind, just look at the number of adulterers out there who's partners never had a clue for example - Thedas at large would not know why the Warden did x, y or z, only that it was done, though they may be left wondering as to their motivation.

 

As for the disparity between the inclusion of minor choices and the exclusion of major ones, well the Keep currently exists to service the needs of Inquisition, so the crazy beggar in the alienage with the amulet might make an appearance in it, whereas Velanna and Sigrun probably won't. I for one wouldn't want one game to reference everything from the others anyway as it would feel unnatural (for the Inquisitor to meet related people to all these things ... very unlikely). And from a production point of view, for one game to reflect every single decision from the previous two, big and small, would likely require so much storyboarding that months could be added to the production cycle and add a lot to the game size in terms of plot files and voice over. So a lot of those currently missing choices might be felt in Dragon Age 4, whilst those from Origins and 2 that will be in Inquisition might not be mentioned at all, and by then the Keep will have been expanded a lot - lets face it there's enough of us on here to make sure it happens

[Kantr]

But you quoted a post on her role in Origins. Was she really easy to miss in DA:2?

 

 

I can certainly say she wasn't an important character in Origins. The DA:O companions were decided to be moved into DA:2. Then the import was written to grab important information. The decision to make them important going forward was decided first. And it is unlikely that decision was made during Origins' development.

I thought the poster was talking about DA2

[SpecH82]

You are right... and wrong. Right in saying that most of us would have played Inquisition anyway. Wrong because I personally would have played it anyway, but I would have been enormously upset in case they decided to clean the slate from previous choices and start with just a default world. I think the Keep is a good compromise, and I like it.

 

Having said that, I have to agree that I miss some important personality touches, but this involves the ISS more than the tapestry. It would have probably been more expensive, but I would jave likes to see Varric's storytelling change consistently with previous choices and not only with the choice you are making in the very moment he is narrating. I would have liked to see the story underlining whether the warden was a mage returning to Lake Calendhal Tower, or a noble dwarf putting his trecherous brother on the throne. The reason my first warden decided to die, was Alistair leaving her to become king. The reason my second warden decided to do the ritual was because he had a romance with Morrigan. I miss the small details being part of the bigger picture, in the ISS. In the Tapestry, I miss some small details giving life to that bigger picture. I guess we really are just hopelessly romantic.

Yeah well since the keep probably will keep on evolving, who knows whats to come?

[Shelidon]

Personality in and of itself doesn't impact the world anyway, so reflecting that in future games would be near impossible - it's their actions, not the motivations which are remembered (and given the world of Thedas is a medieval analogue with similar poor record keeping and ability to disseminate news, even those actions might not be known far and wide; recall Leliana mentioning that she would have to be more careful close to Ferelden, implying she is not known further afield). The mind and motivation of a person is only ever known to that person (in this case the player as it is our creation) - even those closest to them never know the workings of a persons mind, just look at the number of adulterers out there who's partners never had a clue for example - Thedas at large would not know why the Warden did x, y or z, only that it was done, though they may be left wondering as to their motivation.

 

That would be 100% correct with cheerleaders spelling out your name... if only Inquisition didn't have characters who actually knew the Hero of Ferelden, the Orlesian Warden or Hawke. Still, we are talking about a bunch of minor details and we don't want to be focusing on previous characters, since our future hero is the Inquisitor. I understand that, and I back up that position entirely. Let's just admit that it's highly self-satisfactory when a PNG praises your previous character getting the details right. And it's always majorly annoying when he doesn't (the whole romanced Zevran sleeping with Isabela and Hawke bug, or non-bugged Grey Warden Alistair giving away your amulets to perfect strangers because anyway you're dead so you don't need it anymore).

[BubbleDncr]

I agree there are a fair amount of things I wanted to be in the keep that weren't - including the Isabella 3-some/4-some whatever. It was called back to at least twice in DA2, so it suddenly not being a thing was disappointing to me.

 

I was also disappointed killing Gaxkang and Xebenkeck weren't in there.

 

But at this point, I feel its pointless to complain or petition for choices to be added to the Keep. It's fairly obvious to me that everything that has any impact on DA:I was in the very first iteration of the Keep - everything that's been added since then probably has no purpose other than to make those of us who weren't in the early beta feel like everything mattered.

[bel3338]

Gaxkang and Xebenkeck were both featured in polls to be included soon in the Keep - they were both last in the votes but it shows they're up there in the devs' minds.

 

I think everyone would agree that the first iteration of the Keep must have already had all that was pertinent to Inquisition, and that everything since, which covers even what the earliest beta testers have added, is just for appearances sake, for the time being. But lets not forget that the Keep will be used in future titles, so I say keep petitioning.

[dekarserverbot]

Would you have played DAI if the keep didn’t exist? I bet you would, so look at the keep as a bonus or an extra, to give your DAI world a personal touch.

 

you owe me whatever you had bet... I would had only played DAI JUST IF we could do imports directly from Witch hunt without having to touch DA2... else i would not even give it a single chance.

[cindercatz]

Prefacing this to say I've only read the first two pages here. My opinion pretty closely mirrors Johnny Shepard's on this.

Sexual frustration perhaps?

No.

Lol, maybe. I'm also thinking age under 20.

And no. I'm over thirty too, lol.

I have a problem with people whitewashing human nature, relationships, and society in general, so there's that, and how my characters handled that scene says something  about each of them. No two made the same decision as another. It establishes whether Isabela even knew the other characters involved at all, and if they ended up anything more than passersby. It's important for "flavor dialogue" and the nature of any initial scene between those characters, or potentially whether they appear together at all, if past games are anything to go by. Why box yourself in to the most generic outcome possible?

 

Those 'flavor' choices are the ones I really care about, as a detail oriented, character focussed person whose primary goal in these games has always been to carry those characters forward (since KoTOR 2 really). Who my characters are and how they relate to the characters around them are all that matter. That's the underlying fabric that every other decision and important moment in the narrative is based on. That's the window to the world and its heartbeat. Those "small" character and relationship building choices are the most important in the games. The "big, important" ones often boil down to background noise in the end. They don't really make much difference by themselves. They're symptomatic of who my characters are and what they care about, not definitive. It's not nearly as difficult or expensive to reflect that as people make it out to be. I already described a simple way to realize that on the first page. If we can imagine a practical way to do it right like that using the Keep, there's no reason BioWare can't for future titles or DLC. It's not some grand, unreasonable request. It's just a matter of priorities and taste. And courage, I guess.

 

That's where the twinge of disappointment lies, in the different approach to what really matters and the disconnect in what's actually being brought forward up to this point. There's plenty of room for that river to bend in the future though. The Keep is a great idea, and it's impressive to play around with. Nobody's arguing that. They've done a great job overall so far, and it's certainly going to keep improving.

 

edit:Yeah, and if there were no import continuity, you can me as someone who would drop the series. The story continuity is the primary draw for me. That's the main thing that seperates BioWare's games from the pack now. Too much investment there to stick with the series if they decided to do away with it.

[Natureguy85]

Prefacing this to say I've only read the first two pages here. My opinion pretty closely mirrors Johnny Shepard's on this.

No.

And no. I'm over thirty too, lol.

I have a problem with people whitewashing human nature, relationships, and society in general, so there's that, and how my characters handled that scene says something  about each of them. No two made the same decision as another. It establishes whether Isabela even knew the other characters involved at all, and if they ended up anything more than passersby. It's important for "flavor dialogue" and the nature of any initial scene between those characters, or potentially whether they appear together at all, if past games are anything to go by. Why box yourself in to the most generic outcome possible?

 

Those 'flavor' choices are the ones I really care about, as a detail oriented, character focussed person whose primary goal in these games has always been to carry those characters forward (since KoTOR 2 really). Who my characters are and how they relate to the characters around them are all that matter. That's the underlying fabric that every other decision and important moment in the narrative is based on. That's the window to the world and its heartbeat. Those "small" character and relationship building choices are the most important in the games. The "big, important" ones often boil down to background noise in the end. They don't really make much difference by themselves. They're symptomatic of who my characters are and what they care about, not definitive. It's not nearly as difficult or expensive to reflect that as people make it out to be. I already described a simple way to realize that on the first page. If we can imagine a practical way to do it right like that using the Keep, there's no reason BioWare can't for future titles or DLC. It's not some grand, unreasonable request. It's just a matter of priorities and taste. And courage, I guess.

 

That's where the twinge of disappointment lies, in the different approach to what really matters and the disconnect in what's actually being brought forward up to this point. There's plenty of room for that river to bend in the future though. The Keep is a great idea, and it's impressive to play around with. Nobody's arguing that. They've done a great job overall so far, and it's certainly going to keep improving.

 

How your character handled that scene tells me very little about them, which is the point some of us have made. I have no idea if your Warden slept with Isabela for casual sex, was in love at first sight, was curious, or did it on a dare from Oghren. That's all stuff you decide for yourself and can't possibly be reflected by the programmers. I want events that shape characters, not give them one line of dialogue. I haven't played DA:2 a ton, but does having slept with the Warden change how Isabella interacts with Hawke in any way beyond her mentioning it?

 

You also have to remember that Dragon Age is not Mass Effect. These things matter less when our former protagonist is now a side character. You'd have more of a case if we were continuing with the same protagonist, as we were with Shepard.

 

Well, in fairness, I do like the dialogue too but I prioritize one over the other. And I'd much rather they put more actual Inquisition campaign content than fret over trivial things.

[cindercatz]

How your character handled that scene tells me very little about them, which is the point some of us have made. I have no idea if your Warden slept with Isabela for casual sex, was in love at first sight, was curious, or did it on a dare from Oghren. That's all stuff you decide for yourself and can't possibly be reflected by the programmers. I want events that shape characters, not give them one line of dialogue. I haven't played DA:2 a ton, but does having slept with the Warden change how Isabella interacts with Hawke in any way beyond her mentioning it?

 

You also have to remember that Dragon Age is not Mass Effect. These things matter less when our former protagonist is now a side character. You'd have more of a case if we were continuing with the same protagonist, as we were with Shepard.

 

Well, in fairness, I do like the dialogue too but I prioritize one over the other. And I'd much rather they put more actual Inquisition campaign content than fret over trivial things.

Well, for one, it changes her relationship with Zevran (and possibly Hawke as well) later on. It directly flows from Origins. It determines whether she knows Leliana at all. But that was my point about declarative character building questions, not just trying to interpret previous game choices. It doesn't matter if the game understands what you did in the past. It allows you to directly influence how your former characters behave in the future. The writers don't have to divine why you did anything, but it gives them a clear character position or value that's available to reflect in the future. The more we can spell out who they are in the keep, the better they can be presented in future games.

 

Not even thinking about what Mass Effect does. I'm talking about them showing up as NPCs, unless we control them in a limited spot or DLC here and there. They could easily do both if they wanted. It doesn't make sense they wouldn't show up when you're dealing with everything around them. Most of them are heroic characters of one form or another, with extensive ties. DA:I has Morrigan. Seriously, shouldn't the Warden be there at least a little bit? It's a non-issue that's being treated like a huge obstacle to skirt around. Which is disappointing.

[Natureguy85]

Well, for one, it changes her relationship with Zevran (and possibly Hawke as well) later on. It directly flows from Origins. It determines whether she knows Leliana at all. But that was my point about declarative character building questions, not just trying to interpret previous game choices. It doesn't matter if the game understands what you did in the past. It allows you to directly influence how your former characters behave in the future. The writers don't have to divine why you did anything, but it gives them a clear character position or value that's available to reflect in the future. The more we can spell out who they are in the keep, the better they can be presented in future games.

 

Not even thinking about what Mass Effect does. I'm talking about them showing up as NPCs, unless we control them in a limited spot or DLC here and there. They could easily do both if they wanted. It doesn't make sense they wouldn't show up when you're dealing with everything around them. Most of them are heroic characters of one form or another, with extensive ties. DA:I has Morrigan. Seriously, shouldn't the Warden be there at least a little bit? It's a non-issue that's being treated like a huge obstacle to skirt around. Which is disappointing.

 

Actually it's a non-issue that's being treated as the most important thing ever. How does it change Isabella's relationship with Zevran or Hawke other than being mentioned in a line or two? I didn't sleep with Isabella in DA:O, but she still knew Zevran in DA:2. I don't see how something like that affects behavior in the least, which is my point. They mention it, and that's neat, but it doesn't shape their character in any way.

 

We already know the Warden isn't in DA:I, though he/she will be mentioned. Again, it would be different if you were playing the Warden or Hawke again. To point to Mass Effect again for an example, Wreav will talk to you differently in ME3 depending on what you do with Maelon's data in ME2. The game plays out the same but the character interaction is very different.

[cindercatz]

Actually it's a non-issue that's being treated as the most important thing ever. How does it change Isabella's relationship with Zevran or Hawke other than being mentioned in a line or two? I didn't sleep with Isabella in DA:O, but she still knew Zevran in DA:2. I don't see how something like that affects behavior in the least, which is my point. They mention it, and that's neat, but it doesn't shape their character in any way.

 

We already know the Warden isn't in DA:I, though he/she will be mentioned. Again, it would be different if you were playing the Warden or Hawke again. To point to Mass Effect again for an example, Wreav will talk to you differently in ME3 depending on what you do with Maelon's data in ME2. The game plays out the same but the character interaction is very different.

Wow, the entire context is different. They're either old friends and romantic partners or not. They have fond stories of the Warden or not. They can invite Hawke into their happy madness or not. Isabella has some pride about the Warden or not. That's like saying the difference between 'Hey! How's it?! Remember that time..?' and 'Who are you? Eh, who cares..' are the same thing. DA2 shouldn't be any kind of measuring stick about what's possible either. Isabella/Zev is the most reactive decision in the game. C'mon.

 

And my point about the Warden is that they *should* be in DA:I. It makes no sense. It hurts this game *and* DA:O and the series as a whole to this point, because it undermines everything that really matters in the game, which is the character stuff. If they chicken out there. There's still DLC to remedy this one, and they can do better in the future. And what I'm talking about is entirely beyond anything Mass Effect ever did. Shepard's just this nebulous avatar that everybody worships for no reason, as great as those games are. I'm talking about being able to define our player characters, so that they can exist as very well fleshed out, faithfully presented NPCs, allowing them to take on a life of their own in future stories, continuing to interact with other characters, each other, and the new player characters.

 

edit:Seriously, we can do better.

 

It's more than doable, and it's an order of magnitude beyond anything Mass Effect did.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

You can't really make a character that is so as player defined as the Warden into an NPC while still being faithful enough to please everybody. Especially since they were a silent protagonist. There's too many variables. Hawke is a little different because there's a voice a more clearly defined personality.

[Genuine UK]

This is not a troll-thread or a complaint, just my feedback that I have wanted to write since I started testing the Keep. Please respect that!

 

There are so many choices they just ignore to put in the Keep. What happened to "better to many than to few"? The first time I looked through the Keep I got depressed because so many important ones were missing wile lots of pointless ones (like if Hawke blackmailed Thrask or returned a ring to an NPC). I hoped they would put in a lot of them before it became open Beta but now it looks like this is what we get and I'm not happy about that at all. It feels like most of the hours I spent in the game making decisions as I wanted them are now pointless and gone. With the old save-import system we at least didn't know what was or wasn't carried over but now we see it all and we see all that are missing. Like the Orlaisian Warden (who will be mentioned in DA:I), the Boons, most of our choices in Awakening and what happened to the companions, Jowan's fate, how you saved Conner, if you killed the Andraste-dragon, if the Warden slept with Isabela in DAO and if anybody joined him/her, what Hawke told Leliana in DA2 that the divine should do, what sort of relationship you had with your companions (friendship or rival), if you sold the elves in Denerim to slavery, if your human Warden hated elves or elven Warden hated humans, any kind of hint to the Warden's personality really and so many many other.

 

Still, there are many impressing things about the Keep like how it keep track of your choices and makes it easy for you to make a new save and I can't wait for DA:I. I just had hoped for so much more and my hear breaks over all that is missing.

 

Now, I'm really sentimental, I thought carefully about every decision I made could replay and hour just because I wasn't satisfied about that one dialogue choice. In fact I replayed half of DAO because of one thing in the Deep Roads. I never expected those small things to matter in the Keep and I expected lots of things to be missing but not this much.

 

I know it's too late for DA:I but I hope there will be a lot of new choices put in for future games.

 

ye i agree, i was under the impression before i got access to closed beta that the keep had two functions to transfer choices big or small to inquisition and to keep a record of the choices you have done in past games, i don't know why this has not happened maybe to much work for such a short time

[SpecH82]

you owe me whatever you had bet... I would had only played DAI JUST IF we could do imports directly from Witch hunt without having to touch DA2... else i would not even give it a single chance.

Really, you would not play the game, if the game didn't have an import funktion? I mean not many games do!

[AshenEndymion]

Wow, the entire context is different. They're either old friends and romantic partners or not. They have fond stories of the Warden or not. They can invite Hawke into their happy madness or not. Isabella has some pride about the Warden or not. That's like saying the difference between 'Hey! How's it?! Remember that time..?' and 'Who are you? Eh, who cares..' are the same thing. DA2 shouldn't be any kind of measuring stick about what's possible either. Isabella/Zev is the most reactive decision in the game. C'mon.

 

Zevran and Isabella are old friends and romantic partners regardless of whether or not Isabella slept with the Warden(because Zevran killed Isabella's husband).  Isabella will leave with Zevran to "reminisce" every single time, unless she's in a relationship with Hawke...  If Isabella is a relationship with Hawke, and if Isabella slept with the Warden and Zevran, then that fact is used as a reason why Isabella and Hawke should have a threesome with Zevran.  But that's the only change.

 

If anything, Hawke changes Isabella's personality.  Far more than the Warden ever does... But that's because Isabella will have been in an off/on relationship with Hawke for the prior 3 years.

[Senjougahara Hitagi]

I'm not saying the tile shouldn't happen, but I think It's not at all important and it's most certainly not an omission.

 

But the reasons for me saying this are kinda different. Isabella knows Zevran (he killed her husband and she slept with him 'cause of that) and he had too many chances to die to be ever featured in a game ever again anyway. Isabella will always know who Leliana is, should the two of them meet again (they meet in DA2). The same goes for Alistar. Not to mention that the comics most likely did happen no matter what and they would have far broader impact on Alistar - Isabella relationship then their meeting in DA:O. The only thing that isn't reflected in the Keep is if Isabella met Warden or not.

 

And this is just my personal opinion but I believe Bioware is trying to move away from Warden as far as possible, there are just too many variables (not to mention the lack of voice actor) for him/her to ever appear again in a physical form. The amount of people that would go "this is not what MY Warden would say here" is just too big for them to be able to deal with it. Also, he/she can die for gods sake, and died in canon. Also, at which point would in a conversation between Inquisitor and Isabella would her relationship with Warden ever came up? Do you expect an "Can you give me a list of all important people you have ever slept with?" question?

 

Then you have the comics, if they are anything to go by then the Isabella we meet, should we ever meet her, is going to be a very different person indeed.    

 

In short, there is no need for such a tile, if you are worried about future meetings between Isabella and Zevran/Alistar/Leliana/Warden. IN game(s). But there are also a lot of tiles in the Keep that I'm sure are never going to matter so adding one more can't hurt anyone.

[Natureguy85]

Wow, the entire context is different. They're either old friends and romantic partners or not. They have fond stories of the Warden or not. They can invite Hawke into their happy madness or not. Isabella has some pride about the Warden or not. That's like saying the difference between 'Hey! How's it?! Remember that time..?' and 'Who are you? Eh, who cares..' are the same thing. DA2 shouldn't be any kind of measuring stick about what's possible either. Isabella/Zev is the most reactive decision in the game. C'mon.

 

And my point about the Warden is that they *should* be in DA:I. It makes no sense. It hurts this game *and* DA:O and the series as a whole to this point, because it undermines everything that really matters in the game, which is the character stuff. If they chicken out there. There's still DLC to remedy this one, and they can do better in the future. And what I'm talking about is entirely beyond anything Mass Effect ever did. Shepard's just this nebulous avatar that everybody worships for no reason, as great as those games are. I'm talking about being able to define our player characters, so that they can exist as very well fleshed out, faithfully presented NPCs, allowing them to take on a life of their own in future stories, continuing to interact with other characters, each other, and the new player characters.

 

edit:Seriously, we can do better.

 

It's more than doable, and it's an order of magnitude beyond anything Mass Effect did.

 

How is the context different? Can you quote something or link me a youtube video? I didn't see this, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. In my playthrough, Isabella knew Zevran because he killed her husband, not from the Pearl. According to the Wiki, what changes Zevran is if he was in a relationship with the Warden, which is more important and is pretty cool. That is shaping his character.

 

We agree on the prominence the Warden should have, but you are late to the party. The time for that was when they made Dragon Age 2 into "and now for something completely different". With all the interesting things set up in Origins, several with threads left hanging, I am baffled by the decision to do something unrelated but in the same universe. I loved Legacy because it brought us back to the darkspawn and the black city.

 

Origins allowed you to make decisions that could drastically change Ferelden. Mass Effect 3 did this too, but it was at the end of a series. Origins was the first game. Now, it would be a major programming feat to build several drastically different worlds, but the result could have been amazing. We got to know and care about Ferelden, but were taken completely away from it in the sequel. Now in Inquisition, we will see parts of Ferelden, but that's only part of the world. I'm actually happy to be able to visit other parts of Thedas, but I don't want Ferelden to be just one place of many either.

[Natureguy85]

I'm not saying the tile shouldn't happen, but I think It's not at all important and it's most certainly not an omission.

 

But the reasons for me saying this are kinda different. Isabella knows Zevran (he killed her husband and she slept with him 'cause of that) and he had too many chances to die to be ever featured in a game ever again anyway. Isabella will always know who Leliana is, should the two of them meet again (they meet in DA2). The same goes for Alistar. Not to mention that the comics most likely did happen no matter what and they would have far broader impact on Alistar - Isabella relationship then their meeting in DA:O. The only thing that isn't reflected in the Keep is if Isabella met Warden or not.

 

And this is just my personal opinion but I believe Bioware is trying to move away from Warden as far as possible, there are just too many variables (not to mention the lack of voice actor) for him/her to ever appear again in a physical form. The amount of people that would go "this is not what MY Warden would say here" is just too big for them to be able to deal with it. Also, he/she can die for gods sake, and died in canon. Also, at which point would in a conversation between Inquisitor and Isabella would her relationship with Warden ever came up? Do you expect an "Can you give me a list of all important people you have ever slept with?" question?

 

Then you have the comics, if they are anything to go by then the Isabella we meet, should we ever meet her, is going to be a very different person indeed.    

 

In short, there is no need for such a tile, if you are worried about future meetings between Isabella and Zevran/Alistar/Leliana/Warden. IN game(s). But there are also a lot of tiles in the Keep that I'm sure are never going to matter so adding one more can't hurt anyone.

 

You're very right, though I don't like that the more important protagonist vanishes, yet the one who more had things happen to him/her than actively shaped events will be back.

[Senjougahara Hitagi]

You're very right, though I don't like that the more important protagonist vanishes, yet the one who more had things happen to him/her than actively shaped events will be back.

 

This would be where our opinions differ since I think that Warden is not at all important in the grand scheme of things. I believe that Alistar would manage to defeat the Archdemon somehow even without our help, or Loghian would, Flemeth would make sure of that. See one of my Wardens died in Denerim and everything after that played just OK even without her. There wasn't any grand world shaping going on. The world is much, much bigger and nobody except for Fereldans cares about what's going on in Fereldan. Compared to all the others, it's a small, weak country and everybody thinks people there just about invented wheel last Wednesday.

 

The importance of Hawke is... well no matter how she comes to what she is now, she is far more influential. She has either the support of basically all the mages or all the templars. And that's far more then support of Fereldan ruler. Given the shape the country is in right now. And during her story, there is no person IMO, that could take her place.    

[AshenEndymion]

You're very right, though I don't like that the more important protagonist vanishes, yet the one who more had things happen to him/her than actively shaped events will be back.

 

The HOF ended a blight...  But the idea that the HOF is the most important person in the Dragon Age is just as fanciful to me as the idea that Hawke was as important as the HOF was.

 

Hawke is likely included in DAI to legitimize the idea that they were just as important as the HOF in affecting Thedas, on a macro scale, in the Dragon Age.

 

People need to remember... This series isn't about a specific person.  It's about roughly a century of time in Thedas, and the major events that unfolded during it...

[DAJB]

I think it's certainly easier to argue a case for the Hero of Ferelden being more important than Hawke. One saved a whole country, while the other saved one city. One stopped a Blight which would have consumed the whole world, while the other didn't even manage to prevent one war.You can argue the other way, but it's not as immediately obvious.

 

In reality, however, I don't think logic has much to do with it. Rightly or wrongly, there are more people who enjoyed DA:O than enjoyed DA2, so naturally that majority feels more invested in the Warden than in the Champion. It's not a case of right and wrong. The more you enjoyed the game (either game!), the more you'll tend to favour its Hero.

[Senjougahara Hitagi]

I think it's certainly easier to argue a case for the Hero of Ferelden being more important than Hawke. One saved a whole country, while the other saved one city. One stopped a Blight which would have consumed the whole world, while the other didn't even manage to prevent one war.You can argue the other way, but it's not as immediately obvious.

 

In reality, however, I don't think logic has much to do with it. Rightly or wrongly, there are more people who enjoyed DA:O than enjoyed DA2, so naturally that majority feels more invested in the Warden than in the Champion. It's not a case of right and wrong. The more you enjoyed the game (either game!), the more you'll tend to favour its Hero.

 

I would centennially disagree with the notion that the Blight could ever consume the whole world. No way that would ever happen. 

[Natureguy85]

This would be where our opinions differ since I think that Warden is not at all important in the grand scheme of things. I believe that Alistar would manage to defeat the Archdemon somehow even without our help, or Loghian would, Flemeth would make sure of that. See one of my Wardens died in Denerim and everything after that played just OK even without her. There wasn't any grand world shaping going on. The world is much, much bigger and nobody except for Fereldans cares about what's going on in Fereldan. Compared to all the others, it's a small, weak country and everybody thinks people there just about invented wheel last Wednesday.

 

The importance of Hawke is... well no matter how she comes to what she is now, she is far more influential. She has either the support of basically all the mages or all the templars. And that's far more then support of Fereldan ruler. Given the shape the country is in right now. And during her story, there is no person IMO, that could take her place.    

 

The game. and Darkspawn Chronicles actually, disagrees about Alistair. Alistair is barely more experienced than the Warden, doesn't know where to go or what to do, and immediately puts the Warden in charge. And how would Loghain stop the Blight without Gray Wardens? Flemeth didn't do anything except make sure your Warden and Alistair survived and have Morrigan help. She knew the Warden was important. She knew Jory (and likely Daveth) wasn't going to be important. The Warden is far more important and interesting to Origins than Hawke is to DA:2. Now you are correct that the possibility of death in Origins limits what the Warden can be going forward, but the deeds and memories of that Warden still matter more than those of Hawke. The people of other countries might not care about Ferelden, but we the player are meant to. Also, those other countries would care if the Darkspawn were at their doorstep. Who outside of Kirkwall cares about Kirkwall?

 

Hawke barely had any real influence in Kirkwall. Most events happened to Hawke rather than Hawke shaping events. Your decision to support Mages or Templars is almost meaningless. The chantry is destroyed, Orsino uses blood magic and dies, Meredith goes insane and dies, and Hawke leaves. With the Templars, at least Hawke becomes Viscount, but quickly leaves. The decision that I could see having the most impact was if you killed the Arishok or gave Isabella to him. Another big one locally is if Aveline became Guard Captain.

 

Hawke could conceivably have the support of "all mages" because they heard of him standing up for them, but there is no reason for him to have continent wide support of Templars.

[Natureguy85]

The HOF ended a blight...  But the idea that the HOF is the most important person in the Dragon Age is just as fanciful to me as the idea that Hawke was as important as the HOF was.

 

Hawke is likely included in DAI to legitimize the idea that they were just as important as the HOF in affecting Thedas, on a macro scale, in the Dragon Age.

 

People need to remember... This series isn't about a specific person.  It's about roughly a century of time in Thedas, and the major events that unfolded during it...

 

The HoF is the most important person in Origins and is certainly far more worthy of recognition than Hawke. One killed an Archdemon and the other did...stuff.

 

Haweke is nowhere near as important in affecting Thedas. Hawke was mostly along for the ride as events happened around him/her.