228 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

I always turn off aging in Sims.  I can't stand to watch them die.

 

No, forcing death on me in a video game will be the first thing to make me scream in frustration and never play it again.  Sometimes even by choice it creates this reaction.  I loved the US ending for the impact and tragedy of it and have repeated it more than once. By contrast, the Warden Commander/Redeemer endings I absolutely hated and have done them only for the achievements.  The warden dies and he gets this big send off of a funeral where everyone is all sad and talks nice about him.  Alistair/Loghain die and they throw a freaking party, no different than the DR ending.

 

No thanks.  Death happens enough in reality.  I don't need it in a video game.

[Snook]

I'm gonna be disappointed if we get through the game without any tragedy whatsoever, but 'most of the Inquisition' seems like overkill. A chunk perhaps. 

[Chiramu]

I would like to have a play-through as a character similar to Natsu from Fairy Tail so I would like the opportunity to save everyone, especially my closest friends and advisers.

 

I think it is possible to have people die if you might be careless enough with your orders. Since people do die if they are ordered to enter a battlefield by a careless leader, however I think these people will be the faceless Inquisition forces that we employ and they will not be the named, and important members of the Inquisition.

 

The only time I remember an important characters' death having an actual impact on the game and your gameplay is Aerith from FF7.

 

So far I have only seen the, pissing a companion off so much that they leave option. Oh man, if only this was in DA2 I wanted Merrill to leave me party so bad omg! I did everything to ****** her off and she stuck in my party! GAH! 

[Revan Reborn]

On the subject of death in the game generally, I think that it's rather staggeringly unrealistic to expect a victorious force in this time period to suffer significant casualties to leadership (with, one assumes, proportionate casualties propagated down into the ranks). I also don't think that death is the only way to bring tragedy home to the player, nor do I think that it is the best way. I acknowledge that, duh, death is a part of war, and it obviously has its place in a story about war, but I would certainly raise my eyebrow at seeing the unavoidable deaths of more than two or three of the follower/advisor/key subordinate NPC demographic. More than that, and it's not clear to me that the Inquisition would even be capable of functioning as a fighting force and political organization.

I do not believe I ever made the assertion that "death is the only way to bring tragedy home to the player." On the contrary, I believe death is an effective way to bring tragedy home to the player. As far as the number of casualties, that would depend on the story and how the writing team has presented it. If we are in a scenario similar to the Battle of Denerim, it is very likely that many could die.

 

The point is death is generally a device that is seldom used because people enjoy having "control" which in turn can harm the story. Film and television doesn't have this issue as it does not need to appease or bend to the will of the audience. I don't believe video games should necessarily either. Obviously choice is still important and should be maintained, but not to the point where you have too much choice and it renders are other decisions pointless.

[Mukora]

The thing about Antigone is not hatred of men, it is a disagreement with the political cloud that has fallen on her slain brother, one aspect of which she credits to the generally accepted gender roles that assign her, a woman, a position of subordination and fear with respect to the king, Kreon, a man.

The way you wrote it, with initial references to romantic and sexual relationships on the part of her ancestors, it was very easy to (mis)interpret "hates men" as a description of Antigone as a lesbian. Even if it were true, and it isn't, I have a rather personal interest in making sure that it is not considered to be a Bad Thing.

That's really not what I meant. And I have no idea why or how you would read it that way. Seriously. What is it with my jokes getting misread today? Because that's what it was. I was pretty purposefully simplifying the plot as much as I could.

 

 

I agree with you on tragedy being more than just death, though. That's what I've been trying to say.

[Revan Reborn]

I always turn off aging in Sims.  I can't stand to watch them die.

 

No, forcing death on me in a video game will be the first thing to make me scream in frustration and never play it again.  Sometimes even by choice it creates this reaction.  I loved the US ending for the impact and tragedy of it and have repeated it more than once. By contrast, the Warden Commander/Redeemer endings I absolutely hated and have done them only for the achievements.  The warden dies and he gets this big send off of a funeral where everyone is all sad and talks nice about him.  Alistair/Loghain die and they throw a freaking party, no different than the DR ending.

 

No thanks.  Death happens enough in reality.  I don't need it in a video game.

That's all well and good, however you confine yourself to an incredibly strained and predictable experience. Considering your profile picture is that of LOTR, I find it strange you cannot appreciate tragedy, as it is quite significant in the books and throughout the films.

 

I'm gonna be disappointed if we get through the game without any tragedy whatsoever, but 'most of the Inquisition' seems like overkill. A chunk perhaps. 

Most may be overkill but it's certainly more interesting than only a "few." I believe developers tend to be too cautious and conservative when it comes to prevent stepping on toes of fans who may otherwise disagree with the death of a particular character. As long as that death is treated in a respectful way and it actually pushes the narrative forward, I wouldn't have a problem with it at all.

[sangy]

I feel moderately bad responding with:

 

What does it mean?

 

For some reason I haven't felt like the DA story would leave a lot of the Inquisition followers to be led to their doom.  I could be wrong, but I feel like OP is mostly referring to the Mass Effect 3 ending.  I'm not a fan of losing characters I've become close to in a game, even when the situation is pretty dire.  I will say that I've never played any other game that effected me as much as ME3 did.  Aside from the ending, the story was pretty heart breaking and made you feel more focused on doing your best  to keep the others safe.

 

Dragon Age has had some pretty significant losses, but none that you feel directly, in large numbers.  A character here and there, tragic, but not total annihilation.  Though in DA2, Hawke personally had the saddest story to ever exist in a single game that I can remember.  Honestly, I don't see not even one team member falling, but I could be very wrong.

 

I really hope that I have to worry more about a team member walking away because of bad choices than worrying about them falling in battle.  Yeah, I like the general good guys defeat all, even if they're not so good.  Too many people rooting for drama these days.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

No, they should not. It should be like Mass Effect 2, where the possibility for them to die is there but play right and everyone can get out of this alive. 

[Captain_Obvious]

I've had enough tragedy in my real life lately. If this game ends up being a "people die and there is nothing you can do" tragedy-fest, I'm sending it freaking back.

[sylvanaerie]

That's all well and good, however you confine yourself to an incredibly strained and predictable experience. Considering your profile picture is that of LOTR, I find it strange you cannot appreciate tragedy, as it is quite significant in the books and throughout the films.

 

 

  My profile pic is a 'manip' done by a friend, using actors from LotR. It's supposed to be my Surana and Bann Teagan.

 

Tragedy in works of fiction (books, movies) is fine if it fits the narrative arc of the characters.  I'm talking forced tragedy in a video game that's all about 'choices' is something that doesn't work for me.  Especially if the death is handled poorly (as in the WC/Redeemer endings).

[Mukora]

The problem with death is that it's such a blatant brick wall in characterization.

 

With anything else, there exists a possibility for imagination, for a chance to ask "What next?" But if a character dies it's just... done. There's nothing more you can do with them. And that's so boring. Like, you can ruin a character's life and that's just as, if not more, tragic than them dying and being unable to do anything else with them.

 

And yeah, that works for some characters. But not many, and certainly not most.

[BioWareM0d13]

I'm gonna be disappointed if we get through the game without any tragedy whatsoever, but 'most of the Inquisition' seems like overkill. A chunk perhaps. 

 

What he said.

[Meltemph]

  My profile pic is a 'manip' done by a friend, using actors from LotR. It's supposed to be my Surana and Bann Teagan.

 

Tragedy in works of fiction (books, movies) is fine if it fits the narrative arc of the characters.  I'm talking forced tragedy in a video game that's all about 'choices' is something that doesn't work for me.  Especially if the death is handled poorly (as in the WC/Redeemer endings).

Funny, Im more the opposite. I prefer deaths in games I DONT have any control over.

[Mukora]

I don't really want to have control over a character's death, so much as being able to draw a clear line of why that death was my fault.

 

If it just happens out of no where, and I don't at least feel like I could have stopped it, then It doesn't work for me. Even if it's just an illusion, making me feel like I fucked up is far more effective than just "Yeah, no, we just decided this would make you sad."

[sylvanaerie]

Funny, Im more the opposite. I prefer deaths in games I DONT have any control over.

Yea, that doesn't work for me.  I'm more like Kirk.  There is no such thing as a 'no win scenario'.  Even if I have to cheat to get it.  To me, it cheapens the death to know it's inevitable and there was nothing I could do to avoid it.

I'm reminded of a line from Heavy Metal *said with casual disregard* "He dies, she dies...everyone dies."

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I would rather most of Thedas die (not that I want it).

[Mukora]

(sorry for all the posts. I blame lack of sleep.)

Let's take an example we actually know from the game- Leliana. If you send her to Redcliffe, she gets captured, and tortured. As a result of that, we're told that she develops a dislike for mages, and her relationship with the Inquisitor becomes strained.

Isn't that so much more interesting than if they had just killed her? Isn't that so much more compelling than just "oh, Leliana's dead. ****."

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

"Forced tragedy"? as someone put it. If all companions make it through alive it would severely diminish the story by being completely and utterly unbelievable and implausible. If there is never a sense of danger or the possibility for companions to die the whole game would be trivial emotionally. Take FF7 for example, was this "forced tragedy"? If anything - everyone making it easily through alive is "forced safety".

 

 

 

I'm not hoping companions will die just for the sake of shock value or because I want them to die. But the far worse option is to never feel fear and always feel safe on behalf of the main character rooster. A tragic loss if implemented logically - that is - based on a consequence of your choices. 

In game of thrones THIS happened (season/book 1 spoiler)

Spoiler

 

And it wasnt "Forced tragedy" as you put it. It was a believable and tragic outcome that evoked emotion. Emotion being the key word here. This cant be said enough so I will put emphasis on it:

 

Tragedy is a key ingredient in story telling and no other narrative tool if used properly can invoke the same level of emotion in the reader or in the case of gaming - player.

 

Tragedy is also the stepping stone for catharsis, another vital tool in story telling. 

I can not understand the following mentality: "I want all my companions to be 100% safe and unable to die regardless of my choices or how the story progresses".
Why? Because it cheapens the consequence of your actions, because this is a dark fantasy world filled with cruelty and despair. Because DA is intended for an intellectual and mature audience. Again, characters dying has to make sense in the story and related to your actions - sure. But if you are expecting everyone to make it through alive and happy to dance and sing as if in a Disney version of the hobbit shire - then you are playing the wrong game.

I am confident that it IS possible to complete the game with little to no companions and advisors dying if you make all the "right choices".
But I'm also confident that it will be equally possible that a lot of your companions can die, because if it is not possible for some of your companions to die, then the writers at Bioware has failed utterly in creating a plausible story in a dark universe setting where there are consequences of your actions.

Tragedy has its emotional effect in "Do not want", but a story deprived of loss, sorrow and tragedy is a narrative missing a vital organ in its function.

 

[Revan Reborn]

The problem with death is that it's such a blatant brick wall in characterization.

 

With anything else, there exists a possibility for imagination, for a chance to ask "What next?" But if a character dies it's just... done. There's nothing more you can do with them. And that's so boring. Like, you can ruin a character's life and that's just as, if not more, tragic than them dying and being unable to do anything else with them.

 

And yeah, that works for some characters. But not many, and certainly not most.

This isn't necessarily true, especially with respect to fantasy. The biggest glaring example that comes to mind is Star Wars. Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda both "die" in the OT, and yet they continue to have a presence and a purpose throughout the story. Just because someone dies doesn't necessary mean it's final.

 

BioWare has plenty of devices in Dragon Age it could use with magic, the Fade, Darkspawn, demons, and all these other supernatural phenomenon that seem to persist beyond death. The great thing about fantasy fiction is that only the imagination of the author can really limit or constrain what is truly possible.

 

I don't really want to have control over a character's death, so much as being able to draw a clear line of why that death was my fault.

 

If it just happens out of no where, and I don't at least feel like I could have stopped it, then It doesn't work for me. Even if it's just an illusion, making me feel like I fucked up is far more effective than just "Yeah, no, we just decided this would make you sad."

Again, this is where I have reiterated that the death would have to be done respectfully and in a way that advances the narrative. This wouldn't be disruptive or something that wouldn't make sense for the sake of having death. Approach any story that way with regard to any topic and you'll find you'll have an unconvincing and poorly written piece of literature.

[Meltemph]

Yea, that doesn't work for me.  I'm more like Kirk.  There is no such thing as a 'no win scenario'.  Even if I have to cheat to get it.  To me, it cheapens the death to know it's inevitable and there was nothing I could do to avoid it.

I'm reminded of a line from Heavy Metal *said with casual disregard* "He dies, she dies...everyone dies."

It largely depends, but in video games in order for deaths to be something I have the power over, it needs to be handled incredibly carefully, otherwise it comes off as more nonsensical then anything else(this happens a lot in movies and books I should add). Game of thrones, to me, handles death the best I have seen, because all the deaths make sense, to me, even if I dont like them. 

 

So sure, if I'm in control of the death, that is sometimes fine too, but I rarely have experienced such a thing where the death didnt feel like a..."game" death, where it having very little to do with the story line. Deaths I have no control over though are amazing. I remember with Leandra the forums everywhere asking is there is anything they could do to prevent the outcome, going back and redoing everything. To me that is a GREAT thing ot achieve, it showed that people are willing to go to great lengths(even ones they might disagree with, blood magic) to try and prevent a death. Sometimes the best way to force introspection in books, movies, games in terms of death is forcing you to experience the loss, but giving you different...events that lead to the same outcome. 

 

I like it when it forces you to look at what you are willing to do, to try and get what you want when it matters most to you.

[inko1nsiderate]

DA and ME are the big games of Bioware.  There has never been a companion that you couldn't save.  Granted there are some options that might affect others and kill off another companion, but there's always options.

Uh... Virmire?  Thane?  Bethany/Carver? Shepard (thanks a lot Collectors)?

I guess Virmire might not count because you can choose to save the other one, but an either or choice means someone dies no matter how much you prepare.

[Lebanese Dude]

ME3 is an exception. A bad one.

Is the immediate threat of complete and utter annihilation by intelligent, laser-nuking, unstoppable robots not a compelling enough reason for the occasional death?

ME3 was the rule. The best one.

[KC_Prototype]

No.

[Mukora]

Final thoughts for me: I'm fine with death in a story when it makes sense as the capstone to a character's arc, or a part of the climax that really shows how high the stakes are. But I don't think killing main characters is the only way to evoke that sense, or the most effective. And writing a story where ''everyone'' dies is just as hamfisted and boring as one where no one dies. Maybe more so.

I don't want characters to be "safe." But I don't want that lack of safety to just mean taking the easiest and most boring way out. A story where someone ends up homeless on the street is much more tragic and compelling than one where they end up dead in a gutter.