228 réponses à ce sujet

[Mukora]

Accidently hit quote. Whoops.

[Revan Reborn]

(sorry for all the posts. I blame lack of sleep.)

Let's take an example we actually know from the game- Leliana. If you send her to Redcliffe, she gets captured, and tortured. As a result of that, we're told that she develops a dislike for mages, and her relationship with the Inquisitor becomes strained.

Isn't that so much more interesting than if they had just killed her? Isn't that so much more compelling than just "oh, Leliana's dead. ****."

Or, consider the following. You are in the final stages of the game of DAI and there is a blood-thirsty army of demons trying to break down a door you are on the other side of. Cullen and Leliana volunteer to buy you time to complete your destiny and to confront the Elder One once and for all. If they do stay behind to occupy the army of demons, you will all die and Thedas will be lost.

 

This is not a random death without purpose. It adds to the narrative and heightens the sense of emotion and care for what is happening in the experience. That sense of urgency and wanting to defeat the Elder One defines you as you wish to resolve the dispute quickly to save your advisors, even if you know it's unlikely. That is compelling storytelling.

 

"Forced tragedy"? as someone put it. If all companions make it through alive it would severely diminish the story by being completely and utterly unbelievable and implausible. If there is never a sense of danger or the possibility for companions to die the whole game would be trivial emotionally. Take FF7 for example, was this "forced tragedy"? If anything - everyone making it easily through alive is "forced safety".

 

 

 

I'm not hoping companions will die just for the sake of shock value or because I want them to die. But the far worse option is to never feel fear and always feel safe on behalf of the main character rooster. A tragic loss if implemented logically - that is - based on a consequence of your choices. 

In game of thrones THIS happened (season/book 1 spoiler)

Spoiler

 

And it wasnt "Forced tragedy" as you put it. It was a believable and tragic outcome that evoked emotion. Emotion being the key word here. This cant be said enough so I will put emphasis on it:

 

Tragedy is a key ingredient in story telling and no other narrative tool if used properly can invoke the same level of emotion in the reader or in the case of gaming - player.

 

Tragedy is also the stepping stone for catharsis, another vital tool in story telling. 

I can not understand the following mentality: "I want all my companions to be 100% safe and unable to die regardless of my choices or how the story progresses".
Why? Because it cheapens the consequence of your actions, because this is a dark fantasy world filled with cruelty and despair. Because DA is intended for an intellectual and mature audience. Again, characters dying has to make sense in the story and related to your actions - sure. But if you are expecting everyone to make it through alive and happy to dance and sing as if in a Disney version of the hobbit shire - then you are playing the wrong game.

I am confident that it IS possible to complete the game with little to no companions and advisors dying if you make all the "right choices".
But I'm also confident that it will be equally possible that a lot of your companions can die, because if it is not possible for some of your companions to die, then the writers at Bioware has failed utterly in creating a plausible story in a dark universe setting where there are consequences of your actions.

Tragedy has its emotional effect in "Do not want", but a story deprived of loss, sorrow and tragedy is a narrative missing a vital organ in its function.

 

Thank you for this. That is entirely the point I am trying to make. This isn't a matter of having death for gratuitous purposes and for the sake of having it. This is a matter of creating a story and a narrative that people can really learn to care about and become attached to. There is not one major franchise that has never experienced tragedy in some form or another. Why should DAI be different and completely devoid the experience of value?

[KaiserShep]

I'm not terribly intrigued by tragedy glut.

 

"To save our world, you must sacrifice all of your friends, their friends, and even their dogs!"

 

"Yawn. What button do I press?"

 

I would never expect characters to be 100% safe, and I would certainly prefer that they are all in danger if I make the right wrong choice, with maybe a mutually exclusive or two and possibly some whose trajectory seems to be leading there already (Thane), but if I'm forced to decide which load of familiars to cull I won't really feel anything but frustration.

 

Death in and of itself is not very interesting. Killing off lots or most characters tends to hold less weight than the reasons why it's happening, so for me, a couple of characters with meaningful character arcs that involve their demise is no less engaging than having a lot of NPC's turn into statistics.

 

Anyway, this is sort of the cart before the horse. The idea of characters dying just isn't very meaningful. I need all the things that lead up to this to really get a sense of how well it even works.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

There is not one major franchise that has never experienced tragedy in some form or another. Why should DAI be different and completely devoid the experience of value?

Define "major franchise".

[Mukora]

Or, consider the following. You are in the final stages of the game of DAI and there is a blood-thirsty army of demons trying to break down a door you are on the other side of. Cullen and Leliana volunteer to buy you time to complete your destiny and to confront the Elder One once and for all. If they do stay behind to occupy the army of demons, you will all die and Thedas will die.

That sounds tremendously boring and unimaginative.

I've already heard that story a dozen times.

[Meltemph]

Final thoughts for me: I'm fine with death in a story when it makes sense as the capstone to a character's arc, or a part of the climax that really shows how high the stakes are. But I don't think killing main characters is the only way to evoke that sense, or the most effective. And writing a story where ''everyone'' dies is just as hamfisted and boring as one where no one dies. Maybe more so.

I don't want characters to be "safe." But I don't want that lack of safety to just mean taking the easiest and most boring way out.

I understand this stance a lot. I like stories where everyone makes it out, but pays the price for doing so(movies, books, games where the protag and his crew survives but their family pays a steep price). However I also like movies where it isnt all sunshine, where lot of people die and those who survive come back from it changed forever. Both are hard stories to nail down properly so ya. I also like Guardian of the Galaxies type stories as well, so I'm not adverse to any of it. However, I do like the "nothing is sacred" approach when you have a lot of characters in movies, books, or games personally.

[ArchMarshal]

I've never been a mage fan from Origins to now.........Blood Magic always shows its ugly head and its always tried to be justified so...in the course of my game I do believe it anyone is a magic user...they may not make it lol

 

......so you know what kind of guy(character) I am, I didn't even blink with Morrigan and Anders

[Captain_Obvious]

If I can suspend my disbelief long enough to allow for magic, dragons, elves, people with horns, and dwarves, I can believe that tragedy and death is not an inevitable outcome of a fantasy world. If I was looking for a Shakespearian tragedy I'd go read Hamlet again. I want fun. Death is not fun. Compelling, sure, but not fun. I stop playing ME3 at Retake Earth, because that's when it stops being fun for me.

[Rawgrim]

Perfectly fine with some of the cast biting the dust. Given what is happening in Inquisition, it would be a bit silly if everyone survives in the end.

[AlexiaRevan]

Tragedy is good when it is well made . Forcing Tragedy to have a 'Story' is showing there is no story to begin with and is using 'tragedy' to bail out from the 'fail' zone . 

 

I don't need 'Tragedy' to have a sense of dread that the world is tearing apart . And I certainly don't need to lose my Li or my best friend or just an advisor with whome I bicker to have a sense that 'All the sacrifice were worth it' . 

 

That's poor writting . And the real Tragedy is having a crappy ending wich hopefully we won't have . Cose seriously , I for one I'm sick of the 'TADAM cliffhanger make no sense ending' trope . 

 

RPG Games should have an epic beginning , an epic middle and an epic ending . Something that make you remember them for the next 10years or more at least . 

 

So sorry , but my vote is no . 

[Rawgrim]

Tragedy is good when it is well made . Forcing Tragedy to have a 'Story' is showing there is no story to begin with and is using 'tragedy' to bail out from the 'fail' zone . 

 

I don't need 'Tragedy' to have a sense of dread that the world is tearing apart . And I certainly don't need to lose my Li or my best friend or just an advisor with whome I bicker to have a sense that 'All the sacrifice were worth it' . 

 

That's poor writting . And the real Tragedy is having a crappy ending wich hopefully we won't have . Cose seriously , I for one I'm sick of the 'TADAM cliffhanger make no sense ending' trope . 

 

RPG Games should have an epic beginning , an epic middle and an epic ending . Something that make you remember them for the next 10years or more at least . 

 

So sorry , but my vote is no . 

 

Humble beginnings, a growing middle, and an epic ending

[Revan Reborn]

Define "major franchise".

Star Wars. Star Trek. Lord of the Rings. The Dark Knight Trilogy. Man of Steel. The Hunger Games. Really any major box office film to come out for decades that has had an impact on pop culture.

 

We can apply this to video games as well:

 

Halo. Call of Duty. Grand Theft Auto. Red Dead Redemption. Bioshock. The Elder Scrolls. Fallout. Knights of the Old Republic. Final Fantasy. Mass Effect. The Last of Us. The list goes on and on and on and on.

 

Tragedy is one of the vital elements that makes for great storytelling. To fail to realize this is to not understand what constitutes a powerful and compelling story. In a world where there is no conflict, no issues, no flaws, no tragedy, no loss, there is nothing worth writing about.

[AlexiaRevan]

Humble beginnings, a growing middle, and an epic ending

lol yes that . But when I say Epic...mean...meaningful in the sense . You know..go WOW! all the way from the beginning to the end . 

 

A good Story will give you a railroad of emotions when it is well done . 

[Rawgrim]

Star Wars. Star Trek. Lord of the Rings. The Dark Knight Trilogy. Man of Steel. The Hunger Games. Really any major box office film to come out for decades that has had an impact on pop culture.

 

We can apply this to video games as well:

 

Halo. Call of Duty. Grand Theft Auto. Red Dead Redemption. Bioshock. The Elder Scrolls. Fallout. Knights of the Old Republic. Final Fantasy. Mass Effect. The Last of Us. The list goes on and on and on and on.

 

Tragedy is one of the vital elements that makes for great storytelling. To fail to realize this is to not understand what constitutes a powerful and compelling story. In a world where there is no conflict, no issues, no flaws, no tragedy, no loss, there is nothing worth writing about.

 

 

I'd argue that Tragedy isn't vital. It depends on the type of story, and the tone. Indiana Jones, for example, has no tragedy (first one).  And in that case it works very well.

[inko1nsiderate]

Death is inevitable.  It doesn't cheapen a life, on the contrary, it is the only reason why life can be said to have any value in a cold and absurd universe.  Languishing for eternity like Sisyphus?  No thanks.

[Duelist]

All I'll say is please don't make any deaths as stupid as Thane's was. While Thane was one of my favourites, it wasn't him dying that irked me but the fact that he brought a gun to a sword fight and still managed to lose while Shepard and crew watched instead of just opening fire. Never facepalmed so hard in my life.

[Ryzaki]

Death of the main characters is hardly necessary for a good tragedy.

 

The most tragic ending in a VN I ever played was when most everyone was left alive. Bitter failures at achieving what they set out to do, but they had each other, ditched the rest of their companions, broken and failures that they were and they realized and acknowledged that they'd be running from their failure for the rest of their short lives. That to me was fantastic.

[Ryzaki]

All I'll say is please don't make any deaths as stupid as Thane's was. While Thane was one of my favourites, it wasn't him dying that irked me but the fact that he brought a gun to a sword fight and still managed to lose while Shepard and crew watched instead of just opening fire. Never facepalmed so hard in my life.

 

Also yeah a lot of BW's so called tragic deaths could be avoided by some sense. Which makes it so much worse.

[Rawgrim]

All I'll say is please don't make any deaths as stupid as Thane's was. While Thane was one of my favourites, it wasn't him dying that irked me but the fact that he brought a gun to a sword fight and still managed to lose while Shepard and crew watched instead of just opening fire. Never facepalmed so hard in my life.

 

The guy even dodged gunshots from a few feet away. Huge facepalm moment.

[Revan Reborn]

I'd argue that Tragedy isn't vital. It depends on the type of story, and the tone. Indiana Jones, for example, has no tragedy (first one).  And in that case it works very well.

There are always exceptions to the rule, although I'd argue Indiana Jones is somewhat a poor choice since the films generally revolve around Indy and no one else (not to mention Raiders of the Lost Arc was the only one worth seeing). It's not like Star Wars where you have an ensemble of characters and some of them either die or suffer. Indy is more of old-fashion slapstick comedy meant to entertain people and make them laugh and smile. It's not really meant to be taken seriously.

[Rawgrim]

There are always exceptions to the rule, although I'd argue Indiana Jones is somewhat a poor choice since the films generally revolve around Indy and no one else (not to mention Raiders of the Lost Arc was the only one worth seeing). It's not like Star Wars where you have an ensemble of characters and some of them either die or suffer. Indy is more of old-fashion slapstick comedy meant to entertain people and make them laugh and smile. It's not really meant to be taken seriously.

 

Fair points. I probably used a poor example too, I think. But what about the Lethal Weapon movies? The entire ensamble survives that series.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

Not going to mention any names but some of the people in this thread should be playing this:



And this:



But not this: 

 

Since when did Bioware start failing at storytelling? Some people here has the stance "I dont want any of the companions to die, regardless of my actions or the narrative". I dont WANT my companions to die either, but if it is a result of my choices in a logic manner and it makes sense, then it happening would make the game better. Tragedy is - as I've already stated - a vital narrative tool. Yet some people here thinks Bioware is not the company to do this meaningful and sensible if it happens? 

Again. This is the dark world of Thedas. Not puppy-island 7. In any case, whatever Bioware has done the game is gone gold. So we will soon see the truth of this

[Ryzaki]

The guy even dodged gunshots from a few feet away. Huge facepalm moment.

 

What's weird is Mordin's death is done so well.

 

But Thane's is so ridiculous. They could've had Thane's lungs give out while fighting Leng and have the man land a fatal blow because Thane was vulnerable or something. Thane didn't need to jump on Leng's freaking sword.

[Meltemph]

All I'll say is please don't make any deaths as stupid as Thane's was. While Thane was one of my favourites, it wasn't him dying that irked me but the fact that he brought a gun to a sword fight and still managed to lose while Shepard and crew watched instead of just opening fire. Never facepalmed so hard in my life.

Haha, oh man, how that scene made it through editing I'll never know. That was very bad.