228 réponses à ce sujet

[Revan Reborn]

Fair points. I probably used a poor example too, I think. But what about the Lethal Weapon movies? The entire ensamble survives that series.

Even Lethal Weapon was a comedy in many respects. There were certain moments of tragedy or despair though. Especially in the first one when the protagonists either were caught and being tortured or their loved one's lives were at risk. There was a wide range of emotions going on in the film, which I believe is generally great for storytelling. There should be variety in the emotions to keep the audience engaged so that their mind does not linger.

[KaiserShep]

Tragedy is one of the vital elements that makes for great storytelling. To fail to realize this is to not understand what constitutes a powerful and compelling story. In a world where there is no conflict, no issues, no flaws, no tragedy, no loss, there is nothing worth writing about.

 

Where I have the problem is the idea that the number of deaths makes the tragedy more or less meaningful. A story's narrative can be affected greatly by even just a single character's death. For example:

 

Spoiler

In How To Train Your Dragon 2, Stoick's death is rather unexpected, and even more tragic in the exact manner he was killed, not to mention that he only recently reunited with his long lost wife. However, it also provides a catalyst for Hiccup's character growth. If all of Hiccup's friends were killed in the battle, this wouldn't have been more meaningful in a positive way. It would simply have been bleaker to the same exact effect. The idea that people die and we can't save them all would be unchanged, save for the body count.

[Ogillardetta]

I want to have the option to save everyone if I do everything and jump through the right loops.  I don't mind if someone dies If I screw up though but only if I screw up.

[Rawgrim]

Even Lethal Weapon was a comedy in many respects. There were certain moments of tragedy or despair though. Especially in the first one when the protagonists either were caught and being tortured or their loved one's lives were at risk. There was a wide range of emotions going on in the film, which I believe is generally great for storytelling. There should be variety in the emotions to keep the audience engaged so that their mind does not linger.

 

I think it works best when there is a motive or reason behind it. And maybe a positive affect on later events.

[Darkly Tranquil]

I'm fine with characters dying. I'm fine with the main character dying. I'm not fine with characters dying in dumb, inexplicable, pointless ways. Death (of major characters) in story driven games should never be arbitrary or frivolous, it should make sense; just killing characters off because "drama" is weak. Killing characters where it makes sense and adds something to the story is perfectly reasonable, however. It would be completely implausible for a group of characters to make it through a brutal war unscathed, so some casualties along the way are to be expected.

[Mukora]

Star Wars. Star Trek. Lord of the Rings. The Dark Knight Trilogy. Man of Steel. The Hunger Games. Really any major box office film to come out for decades that has had an impact on pop culture.

We can apply this to video games as well:

Halo. Call of Duty. Grand Theft Auto. Red Dead Redemption. Bioshock. The Elder Scrolls. Fallout. Knights of the Old Republic. Final Fantasy. Mass Effect. The Last of Us. The list goes on and on and on and on.

Tragedy is one of the vital elements that makes for great storytelling. To fail to realize this is to not understand what constitutes a powerful and compelling story. In a world where there is no conflict, no issues, no flaws, no tragedy, no loss, there is nothing worth writing about.

I really wouldn't say, like, half of those have "good" stories...

Maybe that's my problem.

[Revan Reborn]

Where I have the problem is the idea that the number of deaths makes the tragedy more or less meaningful. A story's narrative can be affected greatly by even just a single character's death. For example:

 

Spoiler

In How To Train Your Dragon 2, Stoick's death is rather unexpected, and even more tragic in the exact manner he was killed, but it also provides a catalyst for Hiccup's character growth. If all of Hiccup's friends were killed in the battle, this wouldn't have been more meaningful in a positive way. It would simply have been bleaker to the same exact effect.

This is true as well, which is why who dies can be even more important than how many. My point was with respect to DAI however, it would be difficult to imagine a scenario where many in the Inquisition (important or not) would not be at risk as they are putting their lives on the line to save Thedas. If you want to survive the Breach, joining the Inquisition is certainly not the way to do it. Loss is inevitable and should be expected.

[SwobyJ]

I'll just say that I was only fine with the deaths in the Suicide Mission because it was all part of one epic act.

 

But if deaths like that happened earlier in the game, that is so bad. I can barely tolerate Samara's possible death, and that's because she gets replaced.

 

I'm fine with forced deaths. I'm fine with tragedy. But tread lightly, and focus on meaning.

 

I would love a dilemma where I choose between a character and the safety of a region of the world - but in order for that to be a good choice, I need the region of the world to have just as enjoyable story as the character, and still tie into the character long after the character is gone (and vice versa).

 

Virmire Survivor was also (half) good. I'm reminded of the choice, I had an alternative, and it all fit. I would have liked more difference between Ashley and Kaidan later on, but still.

[Meltemph]

Even Lethal Weapon was a comedy in many respects. There were certain moments of tragedy or despair though. Especially in the first one when the protagonists either were caught and being tortured or their loved one's lives were at risk. There was a wide range of emotions going on in the film, which I believe is generally great for storytelling. There should be variety in the emotions to keep the audience engaged so that their mind does not linger.

Ya, I almost think loss of control is the most important feeling, when you are trying to get people to feel tragedy. Nothing creates stronger emotions(anger at the writers, sadness, and ect) then feeling a loss of control over the well-being of things you care about.

[Revan Reborn]

I really wouldn't say, like, half of those have "good" stories...

Maybe that's my problem.

It doesn't matter what your opinion on many of these franchises may be. The simple fact is they are popular and their presence has an impact on our culture, for better or for worse. The point I was trying to make is there is tragedy in any form of entertainment, whether it be film, television, novels, or games. We can debate all day long whether it was executed well or not, but the fact is tragedy is there and very much is an important aspect of storytelling.

[SwobyJ]

I'm fine with characters dying. I'm fine with the main character dying. I'm not fine with characters dying in dumb, inexplicable, pointless ways. Death (of major characters) in story driven games should never be arbitrary or frivolous, it should make sense; just killing characters off because "drama" is weak. Killing characters where it makes sense and adds something to the story is perfectly reasonable, however. It would be completely implausible for a group of characters to make it through a brutal war unscathed, so some casualties along the way are to be expected.

 

^^^^ THIS.

 

Deaths in the middle of the game? Hmm okay, but treat it damn well.

 

Deaths at the end? Alright, I'm up for it, but everything needs to flow.

 

Bioware characters can't just...die. No way. Not even if I hate the character. I had this trouble in Mass Effect, where they did stuff like 'you passed Jack's mission? Ok now she's a random enemy'.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Ya, I almost think loss of control is the most important feeling, when you are trying to get people to feel tragedy. Nothing creates stronger emotions(anger at the writers, sadness, and ect) then the feeling loss of control over the well-being of things you care about.

That's because it makes the player experience the powerlessness in the face of forces they can't control that their characters would be experiencing. Its a powerfully effective narrative tool, but it has to be used sparingly or it loses its effect.

[Ryzaki]

^^^^ THIS.

 

Deaths in the middle of the game? Hmm okay, but treat it damn well.

 

Deaths at the end? Alright, I'm up for it, but everything needs to flow.

 

Bioware characters can't just...die. No way. Not even if I hate the character. I had this trouble in Mass Effect, where they did stuff like 'you passed Jack's mission? Ok now she's a random enemy'.

 

Jack becoming a phantom by Cerberus makes sense. Traynor warns you that the students are under attack.

 

The issue is the game gives you no hints that she's there.

[Mukora]

It doesn't matter what your opinion on many of these franchises may be. The simple fact is they are popular and their presence has an impact on our culture, for better or for worse. The point I was trying to make is there is tragedy in any form of entertainment, whether it be film, television, novels, or games. We can debate all day long whether it was executed well or not, but the fact is tragedy is there and very much is an important aspect of storytelling.

Tragedy doesn't just mean death, though.

[Meltemph]

That's because it makes the player experience the powerlessness in the face of forces they can't control that their characters would be experiencing. Its a powerfully effect tool, but it has to be used sparingly or it loses its effect.

Ya, I agree. You use it too much and people become numb to it, then it loses its intended results and for those who struggle dealing with such a feeling they just stay angry.

[Bfler]

Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age 2 were extremely dark 

 

DA 2 was dark? I had never such an impression. 

 

If something is dark, then Witcher with all it's wicked people, cruelty and mass slaughtering.

[Revan Reborn]

Tragedy doesn't just mean death, though.

That is true. However, more often than not it does. Death is an incredibly effective tool as it is something everybody either fears or is keenly aware of. Their own mortality.

[SwobyJ]

Jack becoming a phantom by Cerberus makes sense. Traynor warns you that the students are under attack.

 

The issue is the game gives you no hints that she's there.

 

..And that's exactly what I was saying. There's no scene, no importance in the narrative. Maybe I just forgot to do that mission, you know? She deserved a scene at least there. That sort of thing.

[Mukora]

That is true. However, more often than not it does. Death is an incredibly effective tool as it is something everybody either fears or is keenly aware of. Their own mortality.

Death also doesn't have to mean death of a main character. It can also mean the death of someone that character cares about. Which can often be more effective.

[Ryzaki]

..And that's exactly what I was saying. There's no scene, no importance in the narrative. Maybe I just forgot to do that mission, you know? She deserved a scene at least there. That sort of thing.

 

Ooh I thought you said her dying period didn't make sense. Yeah she and Morinth really should've been more than just a named enemy.
 

[Revan Reborn]

DA 2 was dark? I had never such an impression. 

 

If something is dark, then Witcher with all it's wicked people, cruelty and mass slaughtering.

You never once had an impression solely because Kirkwall was formerly called the "City of Chains" for a reason? Not to mention the Gallows, the death of Carver/Bethany, the death of Leandra, the destruction of the Chantry, the mass slaughter and subjugation by the Qunari, the blood magic, the various moral dilemmas and sinister plots that were weaved throughout the game. DA2 was extremely dark and certainly being "dark" and "bloody" have always been synonymous with Dragon Age.

 

I wouldn't necessarily call The Witcher dark as it's more of a harsh, imperfect, and uncensored depiction of real world problems and social issues injected into an experience.

[Meltemph]

DA 2 was dark? I had never such an impression. 

 

If something is dark, then Witcher with all it's wicked people, cruelty and mass slaughtering.

dark is so relative and there are degree's. I think trying to define dark is a meaningless thing. Since even from my perspective, neither of them are really dark much at all. When I think of dark, I think of something that leaves a consistent feeling of evil or dread. RARELY do fantasy stories impart this. Closest thing I can think of that had me uncomfortable was probably the original silent hill. I guess bioshock was pretty dark as well in a lot of parts. Even game of thrones/song of fire and ice, only parts of it are dark(although the parts that are dark are very dark). The new Wolfenstien got pretty dark too, I thought. But ya, my version of dark is probably very different. Hell I thought Shin MEgami: Nocturn in spots in the story got more dark then DA or Witcher. 

[sylvanaerie]

Not going to mention any names but some of the people in this thread should be playing this:



And this:



But not this: 

 

Since when did Bioware start failing at storytelling? Some people here has the stance "I dont want any of the companions to die, regardless of my actions or the narrative". I dont WANT my companions to die either, but if it is a result of my choices in a logic manner and it makes sense, then it happening would make the game better. Tragedy is - as I've already stated - a vital narrative tool. Yet some people here thinks Bioware is not the company to do this meaningful and sensible if it happens? 

Again. This is the dark world of Thedas. Not puppy-island 7. In any case, whatever Bioware has done the game is gone gold. So we will soon see the truth of this

 

(Addressing bolded) Seriously, you have no idea how pissed off I got at the ending for WC/Redeemer.  I felt it was handled very, very poorly.   IMO Bioware did fail at that ending.

[Lebanese Dude]

You never once had an impression solely because Kirkwall was formerly called the "City of Chains" for a reason? Not to mention the Gallows, the death of Carver/Bethany, the death of Leandra, the destruction of the Chantry, the mass slaughter and subjugation by the Qunari, the blood magic, the various moral dilemmas and sinister plots that were weaved throughout the game. DA2 was extremely dark and certainly being "dark" and "bloody" have always been synonymous with Dragon Age.

 

I wouldn't necessarily call The Witcher dark as it's more of a harsh, imperfect, and uncensored depiction of real world problems and social issues injected into an experience.

 

Dark DA2