203 réponses à ce sujet

[Dovahzeymahlkey]

wtf r u 2 even arguing about?! This has nothing to do with intelligence!

[mybudgee]

I would really like to see an example of "intelligent life" here on Earth before any attempts to locate it elsewhere are conducted...

[Fidite Nemini]

wtf r u 2 even arguing about?! This has nothing to do with intelligence!

 

He's talking about how we should do spacetravel with conventional means because there's no guarantee for FTL technology.

 

I'm talking how spacetravel with conventional means is an excercise in futility due to ressource issues and technological limitations that exercarbate those ressource issues.

[Dovahzeymahlkey]

He's talking about how we should do spacetravel with conventional means because there's no guarantee for FTL technology.

 

I'm talking how spacetravel with conventional means is an excercise in futility due to ressource issues and technological limitations that exercarbate those ressource issues.

1. FTL Tech is no guarantee, but I agree that without it or something like it, spacetravel as is right now wont be doable.

[Fast Jimmy]

Okay, I have to ask: what exactly do you think it would take to go through with a scenario that I just outlined?

A spaceship lifeboat? A lot. A TON. Close to a century of construction to create something on the scale it would need to be, possibly with a lot of it needing to actually be done outside of orbit, further complicating things. Large scale studies done on the long term effects and viability of plants, animals and humans outside of Earth's atmosphere and gravity. An army of volunteers properly extremely highly trained and willing to quite likely die (or have their descendants die) without achieving their goal. And a whole host of technical and scientific breakthroughs in efficiencies, power generation, navigation and durable materials. And that's just the surface.

Digitalization of consciousnesses. Woohoo. Now, I won't be as demeaning as to simply say you're wrong. You said it is "physically possible based on evidence seen today". Show me that evidence. More precisely, show me EXACTLY where it says that's not impossible to achieve. You know, something that's clearly not as limited as the speed of light and wouldn't require any mindless drivelling to achieve.

Proof of concept is all one needs. A DVD burner is proof of concept that data and the routines stored in one piece of media can be transferred to another with no loss of fidelity.

Are we anywhere close to there today? No. But we're talking about a trip that could take more millenia than we have been civilized to make. Do you honestly think such a feat couldn't be accomplished in a century? In a millenia? NOW who is making humans out to be "spisul?" Organic circuitry is complex but not unreproduceable. Again - proof of concept.

Where's the proof of concept for making matter behave as if it didn't have mass? Or that a wormhole even exists, let alone can be traveled through on even a sub-atomic scale? Where's the proof of concept that a field can be generated that can bend space in a way as to teleport matter instantly?

Nowhere. Outside of the chalkboards of theoretical physicists and the sci-fi section of a library, you can't see, test or verify that these ideas are even remotely possible.

[Fast Jimmy]

1. FTL Tech is no guarantee, but I agree that without it or something like it, spacetravel as is right now wont be doable.

"Doable" is a very relative term. It is a matter of priorities.

If it was found that the sun became suddenly unstable and that every planet in our solar system would be bathed in enough deadly radiation as to kill everything, regardless of how deep or heavily we shield ourselves, in the next one thousand years, what then becomes "doable?"

If it can be done in a crazy, unheard of scenario, then it can be done. The much more likely scenario is that we burn through our planet's resources and have no way to help ourselves, due to not researching proper resource utilization and not being able to leave the planet, all the while moaning that "the math says FTL is possible" while our planet shrivels and dies.

[Fidite Nemini]

A spaceship lifeboat? A lot. A TON. Close to a century of construction to create something on the scale it would need to be, possibly with a lot of it needing to actually be done outside of orbit, further complicating things. Large scale studies done on the long term effects and viability of plants, animals and humans outside of Earth's atmosphere and gravity. An army of volunteers properly extremely highly trained and willing to quite likely die (or have their descendants die) without achieving their goal. And a whole host of technical and scientific breakthroughs in efficiencies, power generation, navigation and durable materials. And that's just the surface.
 

 

Exactly. Imagine building the Deathstar, that's the scale we're talking about. Something that's simply impossible at the current time and will be impossible for a long time to go and may still not be feasible by the time it's technologically possible if total available ressource have degraded too far until that point. We're talking about building an artifical planet more than spaceship.

 

 

Proof of concept is all one needs. A DVD burner is proof of concept that data and the routines stored in one piece of media can be transferred to another with no loss of fidelity.

 

That would be where you're seeing things wrong. Data degration data (or "data rot") is a serious issue and there is no known storage method that can hold large quatities of data without degrading over time.

[Dovahzeymahlkey]

"Doable" is a very relative term. It is a matter of priorities.

If it was found that the sun became suddenly unstable and that every planet in our solar system would be bathed in enough deadly radiation as to kill everything, regardless of how deep or heavily we shield ourselves, in the next one thousand years, what then becomes "doable?"

If it can be done in a crazy, unheard of scenario, then it can be done. The much more likely scenario is that we burn through our planet's resources and have no way to help ourselves, due to not researching proper resource utilization and not being able to leave the planet, all the while moaning that "the math says FTL is possible" while our planet shrivels and dies.

Your stance rides on something that MIGHT happen. Its more likely if we are dealing in the realm of possibilities that it MIGHT NOT. By that way of thinking, gambling on some "Unheard of scenario" is not very doable.

[Gravisanimi]

I'd rather work on turning into data for space exploration than blindly swing a sword in a river for a shark.

[mybudgee]

I'd rather work on turning into data

This Data?

[Fast Jimmy]

Exactly. Imagine building the Deathstar, that's the scale we're talking about. Something that's simply impossible at the current time and will be impossible for a long time to go and may still not be feasible by the time it's technologically possible if total available ressource have degraded too far until that point. We're talking about building an artifical planet more than spaceship.

<break>

That would be where you're seeing things wrong. Data degration data (or "data rot") is a serious issue and there is no known storage method that can hold large quatities of data without degrading over time.

I'm sorry... are you saying these are, full stop, physically impossible problems? Without any solutions?

For the construction issue - yeah, it would be the greatest, most demanding, most controversial project in mankind's history. It wouldn't take much longer than the Pyramids, or the Great Wall, or any of the other Ancient Wonders of the World, though. The only difference between then and now is priorities and attention span, not breaking the laws of physics.

For the data degradation issue, again - solve the problem with the constrictions of reality. Do the research to fix the problem or copy nature - have the personality data be "reborn" where it may be wildly different than the original. Or copy DNA, where a high degree of fidelity in replication is observed, but a degree of mutation is expected and even beneficial in rare cases, coupled with instances of rooting out compromised data, like humanity's P51 gene.

Again - is it impossible for a person to hop on a ship and arrive at Alpha Centauri in a week (or even in their lifetime) without FTL? No, likely not. But can we still do SOMETHING to expand into the stars without it? Sure. Not easily and not overnight, but that's the point - if FTL never materializes and we are faced with the need to leave or die, the odds of us having time for anything near the level of infrastructure or development to do it will be slim to none.

It's gambling on FTL. And it is a gamble, because the universe hasn't even begun to show us all the crazy tricks up it's sleeve to eradicate organic life.

[Gravisanimi]

This Data?

Not quite, he doesn't capture the full range of human emotions, which are needed for what is needed to be an effective species, but the android part is spot on.

[Fast Jimmy]

Your stance rides on something that MIGHT happen. Its more likely if we are dealing in the realm of possibilities that it MIGHT NOT. By that way of thinking, gambling on some "Unheard of scenario" is not very doable.

The unheard to scenario is an expiration date for the human race with plenty of time to figure out what to do. The much more realistic scenario is we will get our eviction notice with 30 days to get out, like every other eviction.

I am not saying planet lifeboats or robot brains should be the goal of humanity. Just that we need to start embracing conventional space travel, even within our own solar system, rather than just assume we can hold tight until the next Einstein comes along and finds us a cheat code for painless space travel. I only threw out the mad scientist concepts to respond to "interstellar space travel is impossible without FTL."

It's not. It's not EASY... heck, it would need to drop about a hundred pegs in the difficulty scale just to be labeled as "outlandish", but it's not impossible.

[Dovahzeymahlkey]

The unheard to scenario is an expiration date for the human race with plenty of time to figure out what to do. The much more realistic scenario is we will get our eviction notice with 30 days to get out, like every other eviction.

I am not saying planet lifeboats or robot brains should be the goal of humanity. Just that we need to start embracing conventional space travel, even within our own solar system, rather than just assume we can hold tight until the next Einstein comes along and finds us a cheat code for painless space travel. I only threw out the mad scientist concepts to respond to "interstellar space travel is impossible without FTL."

It's not. It's not EASY... heck, it would need to drop about a hundred pegs in the difficulty scale just to be labeled as "outlandish", but it's not impossible.

This is gambling logic.

[Fast Jimmy]

This is gambling logic.

Everything is gambling. The key to gambling is betting the field, not put all your chips on a bet that has zero evidence of ever paying out.

[breakdown71289]

Everything is gambling. The key to gambling is betting the field, not put all your chips on a bet that has zero evidence of ever paying out.

 

[Dovahzeymahlkey]

Everything is gambling. The key to gambling is betting the field, not put all your chips on a bet that has zero evidence of ever paying out.

everything is not gambling

[Fast Jimmy]

everything is not gambling

Your screen name is gambling.

[Sion1138]

Nonsense.

Time is a human construct, how we explain and track the change in position, velocity and states of matter and energy. Matter, energy and space exist, so we use the concept of time to conceptualize the changes (or lack of changes) it goes through during a given period.

There are no "time particles" or "time radiation levels." There is no universal Law of Time - it is simply the way we track the universe in relation to its past and possible future states. If matter or any type of "something" existed, then there would something to track and, hence, time. If there were no matter, energy or any type of proto-space, there is nothing to track and, hence, no time.

You can either have finite matter and time or infinte matter and time. You can't have one or the other.

 

What are you even on about? Who said anything about particles or radiation?

 

In the other post I equated time with the changing of states. It is in itself not a human construct.

 

States change, and that is time. It is very much universal. I don't care about how it's perceived and who or what tracks it and how, or what time your clock is showing. 

 

Only the units we use are made up by us, time is not.

[metatheurgist]

I'm kinda hesitant to contribute given the tone this thread's taken but...

Where's the proof of concept that a field can be generated that can bend space in a way as to teleport matter instantly?

That would be gravity, it's been proven to bend space-time.

Where's the proof of concept for making matter behave as if it didn't have mass?

We just proved the existence of the Higgs Boson, the factor that produces mass. I'm hopeful we will one day be able to manipulate it. Sure theoretical now, but so was the Higgs Boson 2 years ago.

[Fast Jimmy]

What are you even on about? Who said anything about particles or radiation?

 

In the other post I equated time with the changing of states. It is in itself not a human construct.

 

States change, and that is time. It is very much universal. I don't care about how it's perceived and who or what tracks it and how, or what time your clock is showing. 

 

Only the units we use are made up by us, time is not.

But that goes back to exactly what I was saying - if time is just tracking space, how could there be time without space? Either matter/energy/space is infinite and time is as well, or both are finite. You couldn't have infinite space without infinite time.

[Fast Jimmy]

I'm kinda hesitant to contribute given the tone this thread's taken but...


That would be gravity, it's been proven to bend space-time.

 

Not in any way that would indicate it would be at all conductive to faster travel. Even if it was, it would only appear faster to the outside observer - the traveler would still age and need resources for just as long of a trip, it would just have the destination not age.

 

We just proved the existence of the Higgs Boson, the factor that produces mass. I'm hopeful we will one day be able to manipulate it. Sure theoretical now, but so was the Higgs Boson 2 years ago.

 

But the Higgs Boson is merely the smallest particle capable of generating Higgs field. There's nothing really to suggest that this can negate the generation of such a field or side step the concept of mass. 

[The Devlish Redhead]

The only solution is to expand our lifespans and consciousness to deal with trips that take tens of thousands of years to get to nearby planets. Sucks, but it's the only option

 

Or we build giant ships called Arks and point them at the closest star with possible planets to find and hope for the best...These Arks will have chambers for everyone to sleep in and they will all mysteriously explode when they get to the new world leaving a handful of people to land and cause problems on the new planet they find.

 

Hmmmm I think I saw a TV show like this

 

That Brian Cox article depressed me but also I do wonder if we find a planet we can use does that mean it's ours for the taking?

 

Will the prospect of new planets to rape and mine advance space travel due to the fact that humans are very greedy SOB's?

 

http://www.dailymail...ity-unique.html

[Inquisitor Recon]

Cryostatis, or just have these colony ships be huge enough where they are self-sustaining for the thousands of years it takes to get somewhere.

 

Or just figure out how to into FTL.

 

No immortal cyborgs, after the war of 2089 this shall be law.

[The Devlish Redhead]

Cryostatis, or just have these colony ships be huge enough where they are self-sustaining for the thousands of years it takes to get somewhere.

 

Or just figure out how to into FTL.

 

No immortal cyborgs, after the war of 2089 this shall be law.

 

I know......First hurdle is to work out how to induce long term sleep so that you can make a long journey, Cryostasis works in movies and films, and books but is never explained how that is supposed to work.. And no one has tried to make it work for real.

 

I was being sarcastic about building Arks having now watched Defiance and seeing just how well that worked out for the Votans... They came here to Earth to "immagrate" but it caused nothing but trouble....... We should have blown them out of the sky.