253 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

No...not the stalking quests....

I love getting my creepy hero on...

[Illyria God King of the Primordium]

Timate

 

"those guys did not even do the proper research"

 

 

theacefes

 

"Yeah, I take everything those guys say with a grain of salt. Too many people reviewing currently that are coming into this game either with no knowledge of the Dragon Age setting, are still hung up over Baldur's Gate III never being made, or just got done with Skyrim and expect the same experience from DA:I."

 

 

Sorry but what research would that be and why would it all of a sudden allow them to see Inquisition in a more favorable light?

 

 

I have not kept up to date with PCGamer but what exactly makes them any worse than any other gaming media publication? The fact they are giving Inquisition a less than favorable first impression?

Well actually half the gaming media I've seen on this hasn't been great either but, off the top of my head from my recollections of the video:

 

- They don't know you can pause in 'action-cam' and issue orders (though possibly not autoattack) despite multiple dev streams and other outlets showing this

- They complained about the lore being opaque to newcomers despite the fact that a PSN article just praised its openness to newcomers.  

- Complaining about fetch quests when DAO and most RPGs always have some fetch quests (think of Lothering here - if all we had of DAO was Lothering would we think it representative of the whole game?)

- Somehow failing to understand the concept that side-quests aren't mission important (worrying that they'd have to go back and kill the yaks later because it was somehow vital).  

 

On top of that they've garnered a lot of sarcasm for this response as they gave DA2 94/100 which frankly is ridiculous (and I'm someone who really likes DA2 and thinks it gets a bad rep but 94/100 is just idiotic).  

[CronoDragoon]

Fetch quests are fetch quests. Asking for involved characters and storylines there is silly.

 

The real concern is the amount of sidequests that are story/dialogue-based like Bella and the tavern, the Dalish couple, the crazy hermit, etc. If fetch quests have gone way up while the amount of those stays the same, then it's understandable that one may consider the side portion of the game fairly impersonal. However, I don't think that's a problem. If what you want is a game with a high amount of story content, then skip the fetch quests (or at least do as many as you did in Origins). If you like the fetch quests and exploration, then there's no problem.

[Fast Jimmy]

Well actually half the gaming media I've seen on this hasn't been great either but, off the top of my head from my recollections of the video:

- They don't know you can pause in 'action-cam' and issue orders (though possibly not autoattack) despite multiple dev streams and other outlets showing this
- They complained about the lore being opaque to newcomers despite the fact that a PSN article just praised its openness to newcomers.
- Complaining about fetch quests when DAO and most RPGs always have some fetch quests (think of Lothering here - if all we had of DAO was Lothering would we think it representative of the whole game?)
- Somehow failing to understand the concept that side-quests aren't mission important (worrying that they'd have to go back and kill the yaks later because it was somehow vital).

On top of that they've garnered a lot of sarcasm for this response as they gave DA2 94/100 which frankly is ridiculous (and I'm someone who really likes DA2 and thinks it gets a bad rep but 94/100 is just idiotic).

I'm sorry, but to tackle your points about the intro not being newbie friendly and the reviewers "not knowing how to play the game..." Those are legitimate complaints. If someone new to the series is expected to do research, watch videos and read DA Wiki articles just to be able to feel comfortable picking up your game, then that's bad design.

And you know who the people MOST qualified to make that assessment? I'll give you a hint - it's not the people who have stalked the development for the last four years, played previous games multiple times and own every novel Gaider or Weekes ever put out.

So anyone saying that the reviewes "don't know what they're talking about" when they say the interface is unintuitive and the story starts out without much to help out new players... guess what? That's the point - people who don't know what to expect when they pick up a game are the exact players you need to design a smart UI for with teaching tutorials and to slow walk the character into the narrative instead of throwing them into the thick of international politics and metaphysics.

[bluebullets]

The impersonal quests are my biggest fear.  If this game is all "collect 10 boar hides" I am going to be unimaginably angry.

I hate these prologues as well.. there should be more emphasis on origin. (ala mass effect or da:o).. to be fair, ME was a trilogy so I do not expect THAT much of a character build up, but "k here you're inquisitor now" or "k you're hawke. this is your family who you love. be sad when they die."'

Stories need a beginning.

[Fast Jimmy]

Jimmy how long exactly have you been waiting to post that? lol

I've been waiting. Sneakily. Silently. Ready to deploy it when the time was just right.



Which is pretty appropriate, actually.

[Illyria God King of the Primordium]

I'm sorry, but to tackle your points about the intro not being newbie friendly and the reviewers "not knowing how to play the game..." Those are legitimate complaints. If someone new to the series is expected to do research, watch videos and read DA Wili articles just to be able to feel comfortable picking up your game, then that's bad design.

And you know who the people MOST qualified to make that assessment? I'll give you a hint - it's not the people who have stalked the development for the last four years, played previous games multiple times and own every novel Gaider or Weekes ever put out.

So anyone saying that the reviewes "don't know what they're talking about" when they say the interface is unintuitive and the story starts out without much to help out new players... guess what? That's the point - people who don't know what to expect when they pick up a game are the exact players you need to design a smart UI for with teaching tutorials and to slow walk the character into the narrative instead of throwing them into the thick of international politics and metaphysics.

Why?  

 

No, I'm totally serious - why should their hands be held?  Did space invaders or Tetris come with a tutorial?  **** no!  

 

Let's get back to the days where you worked out that entering the darkness and meeting a grue was bad because you entered the darkness AND DIED.  People need to learn the try fail cycle.  

 

On the other hand this is a personal philosophy, so I totally understand why you and others may disagree.  However I would point out that what you said only invalidated my 2nd point.  The first still stands, as they could easily have found that out by pausing the game and issuing orders.  

[Kirikou]

The impersonal quests are my biggest fear.  If this game is all "collect 10 boar hides" I am going to be unimaginably angry.
I hate these prologues as well.. there should be more emphasis on origin. (ala mass effect or da:o).. to be fair, ME was a trilogy so I do not expect THAT much of a character build up, but "k here you're inquisitor now" or "k you're hawke. this is your family who you love. be sad when they die."'
Stories need a beginning.

It's a trade off. Front load all the Origin stuff in the beginning and you'll end up like Origins where people rarely react to your Origin. Inquisition chose to spread the origin stuff throughout the game so the games seem more reactive to what you are.

[xnode]

Sounds more like quest training, IE "hey did you know this is a great place to start bear hunting for crafting and getting some experience?" more then "hey kill those bears".

[Lebanese Dude]

I'm sorry, but to tackle your points about the intro not being newbie friendly and the reviewers "not knowing how to play the game..." Those are legitimate complaints. If someone new to the series is expected to do research, watch videos and read DA Wiki articles just to be able to feel comfortable picking up your game, then that's bad design.

And you know who the people MOST qualified to make that assessment? I'll give you a hint - it's not the people who have stalked the development for the last four years, played previous games multiple times and own every novel Gaider or Weekes ever put out.

So anyone saying that the reviewes "don't know what they're talking about" when they say the interface is unintuitive and the story starts out without much to help out new players... guess what? That's the point - people who don't know what to expect when they pick up a game are the exact players you need to design a smart UI for with teaching tutorials and to slow walk the character into the narrative instead of throwing them into the thick of international politics and metaphysics.

 

Er...no it's not necessarily bad design. It's a design that promotes exploration and discovery.

 

It's like reading a book. You learn about things as you go, not have every relevant piece of information crammed into the first chapter. 

 

If a new player does not know who Andraste is, then they have to either read the codex entry that will inevitably come up when something relevant is introduced, or they'll have to learn about it themselves via interacting with the world.

Sounds like some people didn't bother to read codex entries.

 

Even so, there's a certain limit to how much hand-holding there can be when the game is part of a series. DAI is the third installment. While they will certainly take steps to help new-comers, there's only so much you can do without turning the game into a wikipedia.

[Fast Jimmy]

Why?

No, I'm totally serious - why should their hands be held? Did space invaders or Tetris come with a tutorial? **** no!

Let's get back to the days where you worked out that entering the darkness and meeting a grue was bad because you entered the darkness AND DIED. People need to learn the try fail cycle.

On the other hand this is a personal philosophy, so I totally understand why you and others may disagree. However I would point out that what you said only invalidated my 2nd point. The first still stands, as they could easily have found that out by pausing the game and issuing orders.

You're confusing my two points.

The interface to Zork was intuitive - you type "Help" and a list of commands Re available. The description lays out what ways you can go, what objects are there to interact with, etc. Does anything in the tutorials point a big arrow that says "pause and play combat is possible" let alone nudge the player into figuring out how to do it? No? Then the design is flawed. You don't need to hold a player's hand with the difficutly, but you at least need to give an indicator to the tools they have at their disposal.

And the plot of Zork was "you are somewhere, now escape." For DA:I, since they start the game AFTER the breach...

The political meeting between two groups that have been in conflict due to the ability of one group to use magic and the responsibility of another group to keep the world safe from those with magic was being held in a country that resembles France, which is embroiled in a civil war because it's leader wanted to free elves - oh yeah, there's elves and other races, which you might actually be, so try and be aware of that - is interrupted by a big explosion where demons start pouring out - oh yeah, there's demons and they can possess people, especially Mages, which is why the other guys want to lock them up - oh yeah, Templars lock Mages up in prisons, so keep that in mind - but meanwhile we need to shut these interdimensional doors to the Fade, a place where all Magic, dreams and demons come from.

Now go fight things!

Yeah, that's real "pick up and play" type of story telling.

[AsheraII]

Dont know if someone posted this already but anyways:

 

http://www.pcgamer.c...irst-few-hours/

 

 

VIDEO TALKING POINTS SPOILER:

 

Pros:

Not much handholding in terms of lore, you are expected to know who does what.

Open World works well, it feels dynamic and there is always a surprice over the horizon.

the potion system makes things more intense.

Cons:

You are apparently trusted into the inquisition, rather than forming it.

Seems they are not that impressed with the combat overall.

The stalking quests from Mass effect 3 makes a comeback (oh i overheard you talking, here take these bear claws)

Fetch quests feels impersonal.

What? The "eavesdrop on a conversation to get a new optional sidequest" was the best thing that happened to quest design in games since decision making!

If people rather have big yellow exclamationmarks over some NPCs head to obtain quests, they should simply go back to WoW instead of crying about actual RPGs being a bit more elaborate than that.

[Giantdeathrobot]

I do realize that the prologue seemed a bit light on some story details, albeit we didn't see all the cutscenes. They could perhaps have gone for a more quiet opening sequence, a few minutes before all hell breaks loose to introduce the world a bit.

 

On the other hand, if you go into the third game of a series and don't even know who friggin Andraste is or that Mages and Templars don't see eye to eye (for example), well the joke's on you. No one went to see Empire Strikes Back and starts asking exactly who Luke is and who's his daddy. 

[Illyria God King of the Primordium]

You're confusing my two points.

The interface to Zork was intuitive - you type "Help" and a list of commands Re available. The description lays out what ways you can go, what objects are there to interact with, etc. Does anything in the tutorials point a big arrow that says "pause and play combat is possible" let alone nudge the player into figuring out how to do it? No? Then the design is flawed. You don't need to hold a player's hand with the difficutly, but you at least need to give an indicator to the tools they have at their disposal.

And the plot of Zork was "you are somewhere, now escape." For DA:I, since they start the game AFTER the breach...

The political meeting between two groups that have been in conflict due to the ability of one group to use magic and the responsibility of another group to keep the world safe from those with magic was being held in a country that resembles France, which is embroiled in a civil war because it's leader wanted to free elves - oh yeah, there's elves and other races, which you might actually be, so try and be aware of that - is interrupted by a big explosion where demons start pouring out - oh yeah, there's demons and they can possess people, especially Mages, which is why the other guys want to lock them up - oh yeah, Templars lock Mages up in prisons, so keep that in mind - but meanwhile we need to shut these interdimensional doors to the Fade, a place where all Magic, dreams and demons come from.

Now go fight things!

Yeah, that's real "pick up and play" type of story telling.

Fair enough.  I said, I took your point into consideration and said that it was against a personal philosophy and not in any sense an objective one and conceded.  And having watched AngryJoe play through the tutorial - yes, it does say pause and play combat is possible, though not entirely clearly and comprehensively.  Perhaps that then should be the point to be made - clarity is required, not 'this thing is missing'.  

[Lebanese Dude]

You're confusing my two points.

The interface to Zork was intuitive - you type "Help" and a list of commands Re available. The description lays out what ways you can go, what objects are there to interact with, etc. Does anything in the tutorials point a big arrow that says "pause and play combat is possible" let alone nudge the player into figuring out how to do it? No? Then the design is flawed. You don't need to hold a player's hand with the difficutly, but you at least need to give an indicator to the tools they have at their disposal.

And the plot of Zork was "you are somewhere, now escape." For DA:I, since they start the game AFTER the breach...

The political meeting between two groups that have been in conflict due to the ability of one group to use magic and the responsibility of another group to keep the world safe from those with magic was being held in a country that resembles France, which is embroiled in a civil war because it's leader wanted to free elves - oh yeah, there's elves and other races, which you might actually be, so try and be aware of that - is interrupted by a big explosion where demons start pouring out - oh yeah, there's demons and they can possess people, especially Mages, which is why the other guys want to lock them up - oh yeah, Templars lock Mages up in prisons, so keep that in mind - but meanwhile we need to shut these interdimensional doors to the Fade, a place where all Magic, dreams and demons come from.

Now go fight things!

Yeah, that's real "pick up and play" type of story telling.

 

So reading the Lord of the Rings trilogy requires you read the wikipedia first?
 

Some things make zero sense at first but you go along with it til you understand. You don't need to know why the mages are fighting the templars at first. You aren't asked to make a decision 10minutes into the game. You just know that X is fighting Y. Done.

 

It's "pick-and-play" as much as the plot of a 3rd installment of an RPG series can be. Things start a little hectic for the new-comer but that's the entire point. Once things calm down post-prologue, I am 100% certain there will be people you talk to and codices to read to understand what's happening. It has always been the case with BioWare games. 

 

You're completely blowing things out of proportion.

 

Jesus this forum...

[Fast Jimmy]

I do realize that the prologue seemed a bit light on some story details, albeit we didn't see all the cutscenes. They could perhaps have gone for a more quiet opening sequence, a few minutes before all hell breaks loose to introduce the world a bit.

On the other hand, if you go into the third game of a series and don't even know who friggin Andraste is or that Mages and Templars don't see eye to eye (for example), well the joke's on you. No one went to see Empire Strikes Back and starts asking exactly who Luke is and who's his daddy.

The fact that the ticket sales for Empire were much higher than the previous two films indicate that might not be entirely accurate.

[Fast Jimmy]

So reading the Lord of the Rings trilogy requires you read the wikipedia first?

Some things make zero sense at first but you go along with it til you understand. You don't need to know why the mages are fighting the templars at first. You aren't asked to make a decision 10minutes into the game. You just know that X is fighting Y.

It's "pick-and-play" as much as the plot of a 3rd installment of the series can be. Things start a little hectic for the new-comer but that's the entire point. Once things calm down post-prologue, I am 100% certain there will be people you talk to and codices to read to understand what's happening. It has always been the case with BioWare games.

You're completely blowing things out of proportion.

Jesus this forum...

Lord of the Rings (starting with The Hobbit) which begins with a quiet description of the main character's house, his entire life story, the nature of hobbit culture in general, then has SOMEONE KNOCK ON HIS DOOR!!! (ACTION INTENSITY!!!)

Or like the Origin stories of DA:O, which start with 1. A human noble getting out of bed to meet his dog!!1! 2. A Dwarven Noble going shopping!!! 2. A Dalish elf hunting for deer!!OMGZOMG! 4. A Dwarven commoner IS HUNGRY IN THE KITCHEN! 5. A Mage takes a test!!lolwutnoway!!!

Yes, all video games, books and movies start right in the middle of tumultuous action, politics and metaphysics right from the get go. I don't know what I was even thinking.

[Illyria God King of the Primordium]

Lord of the Rings (starting with The Hobbit) which begins with a quiet description of the main character's house, his entire life story, the nature of hobbit culture in general, then has SOMEONE KNOCK ON HIS DOOR!!! (ACTION INTENSITY!!!)

Or like the Origin stories of DA:O, which start with 1. A human noble getting out of bed to meet his dog!!1! 2. A Dwarven Noble going shopping!!! 2. A Dalish elf hunting for deer!!OMGZOMG! 4. A Dwarven commoner IS HUNGRY IN THE KITCHEN! 5. A Mage takes a test!!lolwutnoway!!!

Yes, all video games, books and movies start right in the middle of tumultuous action, politics and metaphysics right from the get go. I don't know what I was even thinking.

Actually, the Hobbit's overall style, tone, and narrative structure have about as much to do with the Lord of the Rings as Twilight does.  AND none of the plot beats (save Gollum, who is mentioned in LOTR and thus not required) from the Hobbit feature heavily in the Lord of the Rings.  

 

Sure, we all know thanks to Unfinished Tales that the Necromancer was Sauron, but as that never actually shows up in the Hobbit...

[Fast Jimmy]

Actually, the Hobbit's overall style, tone, and narrative structure have about as much to do with the Lord of the Rings as Twilight does. AND none of the plot beats (save Gollum, who is mentioned in LOTR and thus not required) from the Hobbit feature heavily in the Lord of the Rings.

Sure, we all know thanks to Unfinished Tales that the Necromancer was Sauron, but as that never actually shows up in the Hobbit...

Okay...

The Lord of the Rings starts with a birthday party. Again - the height of lore-intense activity.

[Illyria God King of the Primordium]

Okay...

The Lord of the Rings starts with a birthday party. Again - the height of lore-intense activity.

Sure - but it doesn't open (unlike the unbearably terrible movies) by telling us all about Sauron's demise and the rings and where the hobbits came from etc.  It just starts with Frodo sitting around and the birthday party preparations.  

 

AND much as I love JRR he was a much better world builder than narrative writer.  He tells way too much and doesn't show enough.  A good mix is vital and he never really gets a handle on that (save in some bits in the Silmarillion which mostly work because they feel like a history book/fairy tale and thus the balance requirement is different).  

[Lebanese Dude]

Lord of the Rings (starting with The Hobbit) which begins with a quiet description of the main character's house, his entire life story, the nature of hobbit culture in general, then has SOMEONE KNOCK ON HIS DOOR!!! (ACTION INTENSITY!!!)

Or like the Origin stories of DA:O, which start with 1. A human noble getting out of bed to meet his dog!!1! 2. A Dwarven Noble going shopping!!! 2. A Dalish elf hunting for deer!!OMGZOMG! 4. A Dwarven commoner IS HUNGRY IN THE KITCHEN! 5. A Mage takes a test!!lolwutnoway!!!

Yes, all video games, books and movies start right in the middle of tumultuous action, politics and metaphysics right from the get go. I don't know what I was even thinking.

 

Is the setting supposed to make a difference?

 

A movie is probably a better analogy than a book since books are much slower-paced than games by nature

 

Has no story ever started with the protagonist in the middle of a battlefied? That's exactly how the LOTR movies start.
 

Whether or not you are in the "calm before the storm" is irrelevant. You're still clueless about what's going on either way, except one of them has you picking flowers while the latter has you chopping heads.

 

The prologue of DAI concerns a giant explosion in the sky (Big Mystery), and you somehow getting a mark on your hand (Chosen One). That's all you need to know. Everything else will be introduced to you over time.

 

Frankly I find then notion of detesting "action-intensity" in a game marked as an action-RPG to be hilarious. 

[Savvie]

Not surprised by the fetch quests being mentioned. Considering the areas we explore will be much more expansive, I am guessing Bioware did not have the budget nor the time to make a ton of more quality, in depth quests. I assume there will be some quests like that, but to fill up the space in these areas for things to do, fetch quests is the easiest way to do it. As much as I dislike those types of quests, it's something I can deal with and not let it ruin the game for me.

[StillBornVillain]

 

I've heard some people I trust saying the prologue was actually excellent, (ie, Gopher ) so...not sure.

 

Angry Joe has game footage of the entire Prologue, check it out of you'd like.

 

I watched it, and it looks pretty amazing.

 

But I guess to someone who isnt a DA fan, some things might seem rushed, as the Intro doesnt explain the world you are in. you are exspected to alrdy know all about Thedas.

[Medhia_Nox]

Not every story starts the same...

 

"In media res..." is a very traditional storytelling device.

 

Because I was having a little trouble thinking of one quickly - wiki provides Star Wars: A New Hope... which begins with a chase scene.