253 réponses à ce sujet

[Meltemph]

I thought Dark Souls plopping you in a cell, explain nothing, and expect you to go kill was quite awesome. The intense feeling of not knowing WTF was going on was pretty cool. If DA:I can pull it off, I'm cool with it.

[Fast Jimmy]

Sure - but it doesn't open (unlike the unbearably terrible movies) by telling us all about Sauron's demise and the rings and where the hobbits came from etc. It just starts with Frodo sitting around and the birthday party preparations.

AND much as I love JRR he was a much better world builder than narrative writer. He tells way too much and doesn't show enough. A good mix is vital and he never really gets a handle on that (save in some bits in the Silmarillion which mostly work because they feel like a history book/fairy tale and thus the balance requirement is different).

That's fair, but irrelevant. Fellowship didn't kick off with the RingWrsiths chasing down Frodo on the way to Rivendale. That's arguably one of the most action packed sections of the first book - great place to start a story, right? Except you don't know what a RingWraith is, what is so special about this ring, where it came from or who the heck these people are who are swooping in to help save you.

DA2's "action start" was one of the most eye-rolling intros I've seen in gaming, giving you no time to ease into the world or story, but going right into chaos, action and fighting, leaving the player to piece together what is even happening, why their character is there and what the story is other than "stab-stab-stab." It seems that has been repeated for DA:I, but with demons and the Breach instead of Darkspawn and the Blight.

That's unfortunate.

[Pirate of Ferelden]

I would lower my personal expectations a bit if I wanted to begin my journey in the middle of a series.  Like Lebanese Dude said on the last page, I've always thought that BioWare does their best to accomodate newcomers without alienating existing fans.  Unlike other mediums, games have the luxury of including codex entries and optional conversation branches for those who wish to learn more or refresh their memories.  In my opinion, BioWare seems to take advantage of this.  But, I don't tend to get too worked up about such things.  'Tis entertainment and nothing more for me.

[drummerchick]

Angry Joe's video skipped through a lot, though. There may be more exposition, we just haven't seen it.

[Lebanese Dude]

Angry Joe has game footage of the entire Prologue, check it out of you'd like.

 

I watched it, and it looks pretty amazing.

 

But I guess to someone who isnt a DA fan, some things might seem rushed, as the Intro doesnt explain the world you are in. you are exspected to alrdy know all about Thedas.

 

Why should you know everything about Thedas?

You are not required to make any decision or take any unprovoked action against anyone. 

 

This is pettiness to the max. How can you sum up the entire history pre-DAI in a way that is reasonable for both new-comers and veterans alike?

 

The answer is Codex + Discussions. This has always been the case in every game ever. Some have small "introductions" to the overall setting, but they are hardly informative.

[Fast Jimmy]

Not every story starts the same...

"In media res..." is a very traditional storytelling device.

Because I was having a little trouble thinking of one quickly - wiki provides Star Wars: A New Hope... which begins with a chase scene.

Yes, Star Wars... which has a trademark of giving the watcher paragraphs of text to read as background before the story starts...

[Heimdall]

The abrupt start of the game is the only real concern I have. I had no idea what I was doing when I picked up Origins, but the helpful opening sequence and voiceover set the scene and gave me a good idea what was going on. Dropping the PC out of the Fade without any exposition as to who the Chantry/Mage/Templars are isn't the way to go. DA2 dropped you into the action, but Varric was there to provide background on what was going on.

All that, and I will very much miss those stylized narrated art introductions in Origins, Awakening, and II.

[Illyria God King of the Primordium]

That's fair, but irrelevant. Fellowship didn't kick off with the RingWrsiths chasing down Frodo on the way to Rivendale. That's arguably one of the most action packed sections of the first book - great place to start a story, right? Except you don't know what a RingWraith is, what is so special about this ring, where it came from or who the heck these people are who are swooping in to help save you.

DA2's "action start" was one of the most eye-rolling intros I've seen in gaming, giving you no time to ease into the world or story, but going right into chaos, action and fighting, leaving the player to piece together what is even happening, why their character is there and what the story is other than "stab-stab-stab." It seems that has been repeated for DA:I, but with demons and the Breach instead of Darkspawn and the Blight.

That's unfortunate

...ok, we seem to be at cross purposes.  I was still pointing out what a bad idea starting with a big download about Thedas would be, and you seem to be saying that opening with the Prologue that DAI currently has is bad due to in medias res action.  

 

I ask in response - how otherwise can they maintain the mystery of what the dickens caused the breach?  If we start in the conference, and as magic of one sort or another has to be involved (and magic in DA always requires relatively close proximity), then how won't we see who causes the breach?  

 

Starting just after the breach however leads to the problem of 'why aren't we dead/how does the Inquisition get formed?' which is what the writers tried to answer.  I think they did the best possible job given the lore, but we seem to disagree - I think it neatly and carefully introduces people to what they'll spend the meat of the game doing (running around closing fade rifts with their companions).  

[TheCreeper]

Not going to even touch the sidequests thing because I've beaten that issue to death in other threads but I think being pushed into the Inquisition rather then directly forming it was pretty much unavoidable otherwise you're going to get people who complain that the character they're RPing as would never form the Inqusition. Besides our role is more to define what the Inquisition is. 

[Lebanese Dude]

I thought Dark Souls plopping you in a cell, explain nothing, and expect you to go kill was quite awesome. The intense feeling of not knowing WTF was going on was pretty cool. If DA:I can pull it off, I'm cool with it.

My first ever game experience did this.

 

Half-Life.

 

[Medhia_Nox]

@Fast Jimmy:  You need more then?

- Dracula

- Walking Dead

- Odyssey

 

Need more?  Are these too plebeian for you?

[Meltemph]

My first ever game experience did this.

 

Half-Life.

Oh ya, HL did do that too, didnt it? It's been so long that I forgot all about it.

[Fast Jimmy]

Why should you know everything about Thedas?

You are not required to make any decision or take any uninstigated action against anyone.

This is pettiness to the max. How can you sum up the entire history pre-DAI in a way that is reasonable for both new-comers and veterans alike?
The answer is Codex + Discussions.

A simple, two minute conversation between two NPCs could encapsulate the background needed. Badly written example:

NPC1:"Tensions are running high here in Orlais with these Mage and Templar peace talks going on... people are on edge that the Mages are going to turn into demon-infested abominations at the drop of a hat."

NPC 2: "The Templars make more nervous - rising against the Divine and imprisoning Mages and those without magic alike is making them more feared than the ones who use Magic."

NPC 1: "Well, I feel better having their swords near with these Elven rebellions flaming up. They should stick to their Alienages and leave us decent folk alone."

NPC 2:"Well, with attitudes like that, it's no wonder so many are leaving the Chantry and converting to the Qun!"

NPC 1: "Ugh, Qunari... giant horned beasts, if you ask me! So smug. I guarantee you they are just plotting their time to attack us all and..."

<conversation cut off by Breach explosion>

If cushioned within a small intro story that could teach the player some basic mechanics, no one would have any problem picking up the game.

Instead... it seems the opening story is "BOOM EXPLOSION KILL KILL FIGHT!"

Which, again, is unfortunate.

[Heimdall]

DA2's "action start" was one of the most eye-rolling intros I've seen in gaming, giving you no time to ease into the world or story, but going right into chaos, action and fighting, leaving the player to piece together what is even happening, why their character is there and what the story is other than "stab-stab-stab." It seems that has been repeated for DA:I, but with demons and the Breach instead of Darkspawn and the Blight.

In fairness, that's what Varric's narration was for (even if it only kicked in after the false start), but it had the benefit of introducing the idea that a horde of tainted monsters was invading the land with suggesting that the PC, whose been living there, could be unfamiliar with the idea.

I too would like a slower start though, the Origins and the quests in Ostagar prior to the battle were great for that. What we have here looks more like sending the Warden off to light the tower of Ishal as the start of the game.

[Lebanese Dude]

A simple, two minute conversation between two NPCs could encapsulate the background needed. Badly written example:

NPC1:"Tensions are running high here in Orlais with these Mage and Templar peace talks going on... people are on edge that the Mages are going to turn into demon-infested abominations at the drop of a hat."

NPC 2: "The Templars make more nervous - rising against the Divine and imprisoning Mages and those without magic alike is making them more feared than the ones who use Magic."

NPC 1: "Well, I feel better having their swords near with these Elven rebellions flaming up. They should stick to their Alienages and leave us decent folk alone."

NPC 2:"Well, with attitudes like that, it's no wonder so many are leaving the Chantry and converting to the Qun!"

NPC 1: "Ugh, Qunari... giant horned beasts, if you ask me! So smug. I guarantee you they are just plotting their time to attack us all and..."

<conversation cut off by Breach explosion>

If cushioned within a small intro story that could teach the player some basic mechanics, no one would have any problem picking up the game.

Instead... it seems the opening story is "BOOM EXPLOSION KILL KILL FIGHT!"

Which, again, is unfortunate.

And this very conversation will happen the second you ask someone (relevant) about it.

[Lebanese Dude]

In fairness, that's what Varric's narration was for (even if it only kicked in after the false start), but it had the benefit of introducing the idea that a horde of tainted monsters was invading the land with suggesting that the PC, whose been living there, could be unfamiliar with the idea.

I too would like a slower start though, the Origins and the quests in Ostagar prior to the battle were great for that. What we have here looks more like sending the Warden off to light the tower of Ishal as the start of the game.

 

I'd say it's more like opening with the "Ritual" scene at Ostagar, having you survive, being sent into the Tower of Ishal, getting KO'd, then after Flemeth saves your ass you can talk to Alistair to find out what the Grey Wardens are about and what the hell is going on.

 

You don't need to know why those "undead" things are attacking you. You don't need to know who "Loghain" is and why he betrayed you. You don't need to know who Flemeth really is.

 

You just need to survive and figure out what happens as you go.

 

The funny this is this is exactly what happens in the game. You only barely get to know who "Loghain" is if you have persuasion and ask the guard about him. You only know what "darkspawn" are if you play a Noble Dwarf or Dalish Elf (or ask about them as a mage in the prologue), and even then you don't know your purpose (archdemon) til Flemeth says it. You don't know what Flemeth is (even til now).

You don't know what the fk is going on.

 

Luckily, DA provides codex entries the second something is mentioned so you can very easily open up the Codex when Duncan mentions the darkspawn and Blights and read about them or alternatively ask Alistair about the Grey Wardens and infer what the darkspawn and Blights are.

[Angloassassin]

The abrupt start of the game is the only real concern I have. I had no idea what I was doing when I picked up Origins, but the helpful opening sequence and voiceover set the scene and gave me a good idea what was going on. Dropping the PC out of the Fade without any exposition as to who the Chantry/Mage/Templars are isn't the way to go. DA2 dropped you into the action, but Varric was there to provide background on what was going on.

All that, and I will very much miss those stylized narrated art introductions in Origins, Awakening, and II.

 

I'm hoping for some Dream Flashback type scenarios to fill in the blanks there. Just like how they aren't front-loading our Origin stories on us at the beginning so they make very little difference towards the end, besides a couple lines of dialogue. 

 

All in all - the only thing I'm going to be worried about, is trying to decide which Inquisitor I'm playing as first. I'm practically grinding my teeth away with how anxious I am!

[Fast Jimmy]

Why should you know everything about Thedas?

You are not required to make any decision or take any unprovoked action against anyone.

This is pettiness to the max. How can you sum up the entire history pre-DAI in a way that is reasonable for both new-comers and veterans alike?

The answer is Codex + Discussions. This has always been the case in every game ever. Some have small "introductions" to the overall setting, but they are hardly informative.

If reviewers are saying it's hard for newcomers to get a grasp on the plot at the beginning of the game, then it's a valid criticism. People who were saying otherwise in the thread that the reviewers needed to "do their research" beforehand was who I was responding back to - because they don't. If understanding what is going on in the world that could have led up to the events in the opening scene takes a few hours and several out-of-the-limelight Codex entries to grasp, then that is a Con.

[Meltemph]

If reviewers are saying it's hard for newcomers to get a grasp on the plot at the beginning of the game, then it's a valid criticism. People who were saying otherwise in the thread that the reviewers needed to "do their research" beforehand was who I was responding back to - because they don't. If understanding what is going on in the world that could have led up to the events in the opening scene takes a few hours and several out-of-the-limelight Codex entries to grasp, then that is a Con.

Very much disagree. Narrative design that has you do something, and only after it happens, figure out what is going on is an effective way of storytelling that has been used in books, since forever.

[Fast Jimmy]

And this very conversation will happen the second you ask someone (relevant) about it.

And the fact that this magical character isn't introduced during the part of their first impressions segment made the reviewers feel the intro was not friendly to new players.

That is what they listed as a Con, a negative aspect to their beginning part of the game. People defending it as NOT being a negative and saying "they should have known more going in" or "it will all get cleared up later when the player gets frustrated having no idea what is going on and they read a dozen Codexes" are missing the point.

[JamieCOTC]

Just wanted to quote this since the OP wasn't clear on this.  You can find things in the wild that lead to optional content/quests.  It's not like the "hover over these people while they talk" like it was in Mass Effect 3.  There ARE places where you can hear an NPC mumbling to themselves or others, but it's still up to the Inquisitor to actively engage the conversation to get the details.

 

I suppose there is also a difference in that you actually have to go kill the bear to get its claws, not scan an area and they automatically wind up in your inventory or your Inquisitor power goes up and nothing else happens. That is infinitely better than getting a quest to rescue a wetworks team and all you really get to do is scan a planet.

[Lebanese Dude]

If reviewers are saying it's hard for newcomers to get a grasp on the plot at the beginning of the game, then it's a valid criticism. People who were saying otherwise in the thread that the reviewers needed to "do their research" beforehand was who I was responding back to - because they don't. If understanding what is going on in the world that could have led up to the events in the opening scene takes a few hours and several out-of-the-limelight Codex entries to grasp, then that is a Con.

 

But you're never supposed to grasp the plot of the game in the first 30 minutes of a game...

 

This is a massive world with a rich history. It's definitely NOT a con for this history to be recorded via codex entries for the curious individual. 

[Heimdall]

Why should you know everything about Thedas?
You are not required to make any decision or take any unprovoked action against anyone. 
 
This is pettiness to the max. How can you sum up the entire history pre-DAI in a way that is reasonable for both new-comers and veterans alike?
 
The answer is Codex + Discussions. This has always been the case in every game ever. Some have small "introductions" to the overall setting, but they are hardly informative.

You don't need to know everything, but a short intro could get a few basic points across to ease people in.

1: People that can use magic are imprisoned in Thedas.
2: The Mages have rebelled, and the prison guards (Templars), have rebelled to go to war with them
3: The religious institution that used to run the two is trying to create peace and called a summit at this mountain, as [Fill in the blank race origin] you are here because [Fill in the blank race origin]

Origins did it to great effect: You learned what the Darkspawn were, the story of their origin, that the Grey Wardens are dedicated to fighting them, and that they were returning. Then some additional information depending on your Origin that let you step into the world having some grasp of you're character's life experience up to that point. Awakening did it too, introducing the reason the Warden-Commander was going to Amaranthine and the crisis. Even DA2, which does throw you into the action, has Varric providing a touch of background about why Hawke's running and the danger the Blight poses.

[Lebanese Dude]

And the fact that this magical character isn't introduced during the part of their first impressions segment made the reviewers feel the intro was not friendly to new players.

That is what they listed as a Con, a negative aspect to their beginning part of the game. People defending it as NOT being a negative and saying "they should have known more going in" or "it will all get cleared up later when the player gets frustrated having no idea what is going on and they read a dozen Codexes" are missing the point.

 

Frustrated? That's an unreasonable reaction. If you get frustrated because you don't know much in the first 30 minutes of a story, then that's your problem and not the storyteller's.

[Medhia_Nox]

That Cassandra, Varric and Solas won't be able to/or aren't designed to fill me in on what's going on... is simply not possible, and I won't believe it until I've seen it for myself. 

 

If I'm in the Fade talking to glowy lady and she doesn't fill me in?  Awesome - disorienting alternate reality has succeeded.