253 réponses à ce sujet

[Lebanese Dude]

You don't need to know everything, but a short intro could get a few basic points across to ease people in.

1: People that can use magic are imprisoned in Thedas.
2: The Mages have rebelled, and the prison guards (Templars), have rebelled to go to war with them
3: The religious institution that used to run the two is trying to create peace and called a summit at this mountain, as [Fill in the blank race origin] you are here because [Fill in the blank race origin]
 

 

Why do you need to know ANY of those things in the prologue? Are you dealing with mages and templars? Are you asked to join sides?

In any case, it's only a sub-plot. It may be a major element in the story but it's not what DAI is ultimately about. You know this. 

 

DAO was about the Blight. You were told what a Grey Warden was in the introduction. That's great, but that's because that's the entire point of the game.

It's a bad comparison, especially so because a lot of the game is actually going against Loghain which isn't made clear until after Ostagar/Eamon cured. You didn't know about THAT sub-plot.

 

You are the Inquisition. You are the chosen one (Green glowing hand) and you are tasked for closing the giant hole in the sky (Explosion is bad). Both are fairly obvious from the get-go. That's all you need to know for the first hour of the game and that's what you're given.

 

Everything else comes later. 

[Heimdall]

But you're never supposed to grasp the plot of the game in the first 30 minutes of a game...
 
This is a massive world with a rich history. It's definitely NOT a con for this history to be recorded via codex entries for the curious individual.

It is a con if the intro is so bewildering that it puts off newcomers. Giving some context going in can go a long way.

[Galvine]

The tutorial area from what I seen is fine for what it is..a tutorial portion. Just be thankful no loading screens every five minutes like we got In DA2. I tried to play DA2 again waiting on DAI and found myself soon getting more and more irritated with loading screens more so than anything else so I quit playing.

[Fast Jimmy]

Very much disagree. Narrative design that has you do something, and only after it happens, figure out what is going on is an effective way of storytelling that has been used in books, since forever.

"Doing something" and "being present for one of the most chaotic and unprescedented things in the history of an entire fictional universe" are not equivalent.

Having a dwarf commoner learn about Dwarven castes and the criminal nature of the Casteless by shaking down some poor people and getting caught up in deception in the Proving Grounds teaches a lot by showing.

Having the story start with demons pouring out of the sky, demonstrating a fracturing of the divide between two realities not seen in the entirety of the world, right in the middle of a peace conference between Mage and Templars that stems from bucking against a system that has stood for millenia and staging it in a city that has racial tensions that are coming to the biggest head since the last race war against the empire hundreds of years ago is all a lot to swallow in the first five minutes.

[Kel Eligor]

Kotor - Start off in a space-battle above Taris, crash land and figure out what's going on.

Kotor 2 - Start off in a medical center in an abandoned mining facility and figure out what's going on

Mass Effect - Start off with a Geth invasion which brings up a bunch of questions and figure out what's going on

Mass Effect 2 - You're killed and brought back to life, figure out what's going on

Mass Effect 3 - The reapers pwn earth, figure out what to do

Dragon Age 2 - Escape the darkspawn, figure out where to go

 

If some people are still surprised about Bioware games starting with a bang they clearly don't live in the same dimension as we do. 

[dlux]

See, I don't get the more action bit. The Tactical Camera mode is VASTLY improved over DAO, so the only way combat is "more action" is if you CHOOSE to play it in action mode. You don't want action? You don't want to hold a button to autoattack? Great! Use the Tactical mode, and you'll be fine.

In previous Dragon Age games you would assign orders and then let it play out, according to these guys it doesn't work like that anymore in this game. DA:I is allegedly designed around selecting a character and then swiping away in 3rd person mode, while only occasionally entering tactical mode to issue orders for teammates.

 

BTW, you should probably play the game before you claim as a fact that tactical mode has vastly improved. 
 

As for the quest design, keep in mind that they're only talking about the free-roaming open world quests. Beyond the prologue they never really got involved in the storyline quests. It's like saying DAO's quest design is weak, because you spent all your time in Lothering hunting bandits and killing bears.

You killed bears and bandits in Lothering for maybe 30 minutes in DA:O, not six hours. These guys played DA:I for six hours and said that they ran into numerous fetch quests during this time.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

"Doing something" and "being present for one of the most chaotic and unprescedented things in the history of an entire fictional universe" are not equivalent.

Having a dwarf commoner learn about Dwarven castes and the criminal nature of the Casteless by shaking down some poor people and getting caught up in deception in the Proving Grounds teaches a lot by showing.

Having the story start with demons pouring out of the sky, demonstrating a fracturing of the divide between two realities not seen in the entirety of the world, right in the middle of a peace conference between Mage and Templars that stems from bucking against a system that has stood for millenia and staging it in a city that has racial tensions that are coming to the biggest head since the last race war against the empire hundreds of years ago is all a lot to swallow in the first five minutes.

 

Precisely. 

 

This remind of Skyrim's prologue all over again with Alduin and everything. 

 

This type of narrative has a huge shock & awe value but it is a lot to swallow for someone who is not familiar with the lore. 

[Heimdall]

Why do you need to know ANY of those things in the prologue? Are you dealing with mages and templars? That's only a sub-plot. It's not what DAI is about. You know this.
 
You are the Inquisition. You are the chosen one (Green glowing hand) and you are tasked for closing the giant hole in the sky (Explosion is bad). Both are fairly obvious from the get-go.
That's all you need to know for the first hour of the game. 
 
Everything else comes later.

Because the whole reason anyone is one that mountain, including the character you're playing, is because of that war. Giving some context never hurt anyone. It certainly didn't hurt DAO. I prefer having a grasp of what's going on instead of being pulled through a flashy action sequence hoping someone will stop and explain what's going on. It's hard to grab onto something that just seems like random nonsense without context for the first hour.

[Lebanese Dude]

Because the whole reason anyone is one that mountain, including the character you're playing, is because of that war. Giving some context never hurt anyone. It certainly didn't hurt DAO. I prefer having a grasp of what's going on instead of being pulled through a flashy action sequence hoping someone will stop and explain what's going on. It's hard to grab onto something that just seems like random nonsense without context for the first hour.

 

I edited that post for more clarity. 

Why do you need to know ANY of those things in the prologue? Are you dealing with mages and templars? Are you asked to join sides?

In any case, it's only a sub-plot. It may be a major element in the story but it's not what DAI is ultimately about. You know this. 

 

DAO was about the Blight. You were told what a Grey Warden was in the introduction. That's great, but that's because that's the entire point of the game.

It's a bad comparison, especially so because a lot of the game is actually going against Loghain which isn't made clear until after Ostagar/Eamon cured. You didn't know about THAT sub-plot.

 

You are the Inquisition. You are the chosen one (Green glowing hand) and you are tasked for closing the giant hole in the sky (Explosion is bad). Both are fairly obvious from the get-go. That's all you need to know for the first hour of the game and that's what you're given.

 

Everything else comes later. 

 

 

 

The fact of the matter is that the mage/templar war is not the point of DAI so it wouldn't make sense for it to be mentioned at all.

 

The inquisition is what matters and that's exactly what you are introduced to. 

[Giantdeathrobot]

The fact that the ticket sales for Empire were much higher than the previous two films indicate that might not be entirely accurate.

 

Empire was the second movie, not the third. It's also generally considered the best Star Wars so the ticket sales don't prove much in this case.

 

The point is, anyone who jumps in at the third entry of a series can't expect the work (whenever book or movie or game) to go through the motions of explaining everything, especially in the third installment. Mass Effect 3 doesn't explain who Shepard is, why he has a cadre of weird aliens following him and who the giant space cuttlefish are (hell the second game begins with him being blown up without any context whatsoever). A Storm of Swords doesn't explain in details who is Arya Stark or Tyrion Lannister and why we should bother to care about them. Return Of the King (book or movie) doesn't explain what's the Ring and why in hell should the characters bother to throw it down a volcano. The Prisoner of Azkaban doesn't explain to you that Harry is a wizard who's super special yet again. Breaking Bad season 3 doesn't begin with a slideshow telling you how Walter White became what he is.

 

You're supposed to know at least the basics of the setting before you sit down to enjoy the third part of an ongoing series. That's just common logic. And hell, Dragon Age has the advantage of having a full fledged Codex full of background lore if you want it. It also has a plot summary in the form of the Keep and save import, so there's really no excuse not to know the basics of the setting and what happened in the first two games when the devs go out of their way to provide a free app that allows you to go through all of it.

 

And since the Breach, how it happened and who caused it is a driving question of the game (if not THE question), we can't exactly expect NPCs to tell us all about it in details. You will find it all in due time.

[Lebanese Dude]

 

*Logic*

 

[Fast Jimmy]

Kotor - Start off in a space-battle above Taris, crash land and figure out what's going on.
Kotor 2 - Start off in a medical center in an abandoned mining facility and figure out what's going on
Mass Effect - Start off with a Geth invasion which brings up a bunch of questions and figure out what's going on
Mass Effect 2 - You're killed and brought back to life, figure out what's going on
Mass Effect 3 - The reapers pwn earth, figure out what to do
Dragon Age 2 - Escape the darkspawn, figure out where to go

If some people are still surprised about Bioware games starting with a bang they clearly don't live in the same dimension as we do.

Okay... again, disqualify anything Star Wars, it literally starts with walls of text.

ME1 - starts with you talking to Joker, then talking to members of your ship, then talking to Nihlus, then talking to Captain Anderson, then landing with your crew, THEN Geth attack. You can get TONS of background and information prior to the point where the action starts.

ME2 starts with an voice over talking about the Reaper threat, why they are dangerous, that no one believes you and that you are doing everything to stop them. Then queues the action scene where you die, then cues your resurrection, with people saying you are important to stop the Reapers, then you get into the action. Seriously, one of the big complaints about ME2 was how long it took to get to the point where you get to the character creator and started the action.

ME3 - ten to fifteen minutes talking about Shephard's trial, why he did what he did to stop the Reapers because all life depended on it, that they are coming soon and that he would do anything to stop them. THEN the action started with the attack.

DA2 - enter the darkspawn, figure out what to do.


I would have thought with all the flak they got from the DA2 intro and how it never gave you a chance to connect with any of the characters (or get to know yours) would have steered them away from starting DIRECTLY in the middle of the action.

[KaiserShep]

Just wanted to quote this since the OP wasn't clear on this.  You can find things in the wild that lead to optional content/quests.  It's not like the "hover over these people while they talk" like it was in Mass Effect 3.  There ARE places where you can hear an NPC mumbling to themselves or others, but it's still up to the Inquisitor to actively engage the conversation to get the details.

 

And the mods stood still, the trolls did quiet, and all gamers of earth and web held their breath
And all was silent in prayer and thanks.

[Fast Jimmy]

I edited that post for more clarity.


The fact of the matter is that the mage/templar war is not the point of DAI so it wouldn't make sense for it to be mentioned at all.

The inquisition is what matters and that's exactly what you are introduced to.

I'm glad you are intimately familiar with the deeper intricacies of the plot for a game that isn't out. And I'm also glad you can speak to how an outside player may feel after playing the intro better than an outside player who has played the intro.

[Heimdall]

Kotor - Start off in a space-battle above Taris, crash land and figure out what's going on. Long scrolling intro text giving context
Kotor 2 - Start off in a medical center in an abandoned mining facility and figure out what's going onLong scrolling intro text giving context, not a Bioware game btw
Mass Effect - Start off with a Geth invasion which brings up a bunch of questions and figure out what's going onShorter intro text describing what's going on and the opportunity to ask lore questions on the Normandy before you even find out about the Geth
Mass Effect 2 - You're killed and brought back to life, figure out what's going onEven this had an intro text, with some context commentary from the Illusive Man and Miranda
Mass Effect 3 - The reapers pwn earth, figure out what to doI'll let you have this one, since it was probably my one of my least favorite intros in a Bioware game. It did give you some explanation before the fireworks started going though
Dragon Age 2 - Escape the darkspawn, figure out where to goVarric's narration provided plenty of context for why Hawke was running and what was happening to Ferelden, even explained Ostagar
 
If some people are still surprised about Bioware games starting with a bang they clearly don't live in the same dimension as we do.

Starting with a bang is only half of it, the real problem is not providing any context as to what's going on. Which is something Bioware actually hasn't done before.

[Fast Jimmy]

Empire was the second movie, not the third. It's also generally considered the best Star Wars so the ticket sales don't prove much in this case.

The point is, anyone who jumps in at the third entry of a series can't expect the work (whenever book or movie or game) to go through the motions of explaining everything, especially in the third installment. Mass Effect 3 doesn't explain who Shepard is, why he has a cadre of weird aliens following him and who the giant space cuttlefish are (hell the second game begins with him being blown up without any context whatsoever). A Storm of Swords doesn't explain in details who is Arya Stark or Tyrion Lannister and why we should bother to care about them. Return Of the King (book or movie) doesn't explain what's the Ring and why in hell should the characters bother to throw it down a volcano. The Prisoner of Azkaban doesn't explain to you that Harry is a wizard who's super special yet again. Breaking Bad season 3 doesn't begin with a slideshow telling you how Walter White became what he is.

You're supposed to know at least the basics of the setting before you sit down to enjoy the third part of an ongoing series. That's just common logic. And hell, Dragon Age has the advantage of having a full fledged Codex full of background lore if you want it. It also has a plot summary in the form of the Keep and save import, so there's really no excuse not to know the basics of the setting and what happened in the first two games when the devs go out of their way to provide a free app that allows you to go through all of it.

And since the Breach, how it happened and who caused it is a driving question of the game (if not THE question), we can't exactly expect NPCs to tell us all about it in details. You will find it all in due time.

Your argument is irrelevant. The critique was "someone new to the series that haven't played the other games will get easily lost." If your response is "new people shouldn't be new to the series without playing the other games" then that is not addressing the criticism.

Explaining the Breach is not material. You or I would not get lost in the intro, because we know the backstory. Someone new does not have any backstory. Throwing them right in the middle of not just action, but the fireworks of some of the most historic and involved events in the history of Thedas is, understandably, quite confusing.

[Heimdall]

I edited that post for more clarity. 
 
The fact of the matter is that the mage/templar war is not the point of DAI so it wouldn't make sense for it to be mentioned at all.
 
The inquisition is what matters and that's exactly what you are introduced to.

What matters is that the player has some idea why they're on the top of a remote mountain in the first place. Set the stage. The mage-Templar war is the stage for something that becomes bigger, but it is the starting point.

[Lebanese Dude]

I'm glad you are intimately familiar with the deeper intricacies of the plot for a game that isn't out. And I'm also glad you can speak to how an outside player may feel after playing the intro better than an outside player who has played the intro.

 

I am as intimately familiar as a fan would be. It has already been stated that you can resolve the mage/templar war fairly early in the game. I don't know what OTHER plots there are, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the main plot is about the Breach.

 

I can also speak as an outside player playing a new game in an ongoing series because I have actually been in that position. Witcher 2. I didn't know what the hell was going on but I eventually figured it out, and DA is far better at codex entries.

 

It's funny that you resort to cynicism when you clearly have nothing proper to argue with. Is it so hard to concede?

[Fast Jimmy]

I am as intimately familiar as a fan would be. It has already been stated that you can resolve the mage/templar war fairly early in the game. I don't know what OTHER plots there are, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the main plot is about the Breach.

I can also speak as an outside player playing a new game in an ongoing series because I have actually been in that position. Witcher 2. I didn't know what the hell was going on but I eventually figured it out, and DA is far better at codex entries.

It's funny that you resort to cynicism when you clearly have nothing proper to argue with.

I'm sorry, but what is it YOU are trying to argue?

That the game IS friendly to new players? That not being friendly to new players is not a potential con?

I assure you, a new player will be confused. And I assure you, they will see that as a possible reason to put the game down.

[Lebanese Dude]

What matters is that the player has some idea why they're on the top of a remote mountain in the first place. Set the stage. The mage-Templar war is the stage for something that becomes bigger, but it is the starting point.

 

Fair enough, but again you don't even participate in the Mage/Templar conference at the mountain. You are simply a survivor with a mark on your hand. 

Haven't we been told that you get to play a little before the Breach happens? That should be enough, if true.

[GrayTimber]

I watched their video before, and they seemed to complain about things that seemed kinda silly far as I remember.

 

I couldn't take it seriously, haha.

[Vilegrim]

Kotor - Start off in a space-battle above Taris, crash land and figure out what's going on.

Kotor 2 - Start off in a medical center in an abandoned mining facility and figure out what's going on

Mass Effect - Start off with a Geth invasion which brings up a bunch of questions and figure out what's going on

Mass Effect 2 - You're killed and brought back to life, figure out what's going on

Mass Effect 3 - The reapers pwn earth, figure out what to do

Dragon Age 2 - Escape the darkspawn, figure out where to go

 

If some people are still surprised about Bioware games starting with a bang they clearly don't live in the same dimension as we do. 

 

Mass Effect: spend 15 mins at least talking to people aboard the ship first, getting back ground detail about who you are, what is going on, what this ship is, the setting etc etc.   Mass Effect 2, their was still talking and learning at the start, same with 3, you get a fair way into the trial before boom o'crap turns up. 

[Lebanese Dude]

I'm sorry, but what is it YOU are trying to argue?

That the game IS friendly to new players? That not being friendly to new players is not a potential con?

I assure you, a new player will be confused. And I assure you, they will see that as a possible reason to put the game down.

 

I don't even get how "confusion" is bad. It's inevitable in a setting like Dragon Age. Even a short introduction can potentially be MORE confusing than not talking about it all. 

 

Is BioWare supposed to change the game to accommodate the occasional drama queen that is too impatient to discover the story of a goddamn 150-hour roleplaying game? They knew what they were getting into when they joined the game at the third installment.

 

Bah... You're arguing that people can get confused. That's a fact. I'm arguing that people are capable of discovering the story on their own, and as far as they are concerned, all they need to know is what the immediate threat is and that they need to survive.

 

Both are covered in the prologue.

Enough. 

[Heimdall]

I am as intimately familiar as a fan would be. It has already been stated that you can resolve the mage/templar war fairly early in the game. I don't know what OTHER plots there are, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the main plot is about the Breach.

I can also speak as an outside player playing a new game in an ongoing series because I have actually been in that position. Witcher 2. I didn't know what the hell was going on but I eventually figured it out, and DA is far better at codex entries.

It's funny that you resort to cynicism when you clearly have nothing proper to argue with. Is it so hard to concede?

The Witcher 2 gave you plenty of context. Before you've even spoken with the king you know that you're Geralt, you have amnesia, you're a monster hunter for hire, there was another Witcher that tried to kill the king, and the current battle is over royal bastards. Most of that you learn before leaving Triss's tent.

Nobody's saying they need to provide a whole history of the world, just some explanation as to goings on directly relating to why you are there at that moment.

[Pirate of Ferelden]

At this rate, this thread will be 50 more pages of rehashing the same things ad nauseum with not a single opinion changed or concession given.