64 replies to this topic

[HH92]

Forgive me if all of this has been said before, but I felt I should offer my impressions. The Keep (and honestly Inquisition itself at this point) is starting to seem like far more disappointing than I'd hoped.

 

A bit of context first though: I could most likely be called a "casual" Dragon Age player. I've played Origins and 2 only once and, though I have really looked into and enjoyed the lore, I'm not nearly as passionate or immersed in the series as I was (and still am) in Mass Effect or even games like the Elder Scrolls series. I was hoping that, after more playthroughs and the release of DA:I, that I could become as immersed and excited about the series as a lot of people I know who enjoy it. After all, it was only after two or three playthroughs of both ME1 and 2 that I really came to appreciate Mass Effect as I do now.

 

So, from the position of someone looking to get excited about the series, the Keep feels like a monumental misstep to me. After the Mass Effect trilogy and DA:O and 2's simple, one-file save import system, this confusing and, to be blunt, utterly pointless site has killed most if not all of my excitement for DA:I.

 

That may seem rather harsh, but really what is the benefit of jumping through all the (many) hoops to "sync" my games with my Origin profile? Both the Warden and Hawke's appearances are not saved and every single decision you've made in both games has to be input manually (if you can even remember them). So if the characters are not imported, and the choices and quests are not imported, and the major events that are supposed influence the game's world are not imported, why on earth even bother?

 

Now I understand the Keep is supposed to be some kind of social hub or something, and the world building mechanic will be useful for brand new players who will only have DA:I, but in my mind there is no excuse whatsoever for not including a simple save import system. A simple utility to read the checked plot flags (e.g. every other modern Bioware game) in a save file is all that's really needed here.

 

I'm trying to be reasonable here but seriously, why can you not just pick a save file from the Keep and have it autofill at least some major plot points? Is there any real reason? I'm entirely serious, if there is some technical issue I'm not seeing here I'd like to hear it. As it stands now though, the sole reason I can even think of for pushing this kind of thing is to try to force more people into registering and using their Origin accounts, which certainly does not sit right with me at all. 

 

Now all of this wouldn't matter as much to me were it not a Bioware game. The joy of series like DA or Mass Effect though is feeling you have some influence over the game's world and plot, as if your story is unique to you. Without the characters I've created and played as, and the major choices I've made, why even bother? This is all eerily reminiscent of all the "Mass Effect 3 is the best place to start playing the series" nonsense that was floating around pre-ME3, and it's making me seriously doubt I'll be getting DA:I at all.

 

TL;DR: The lack of a save import feature or really any point to the Keep is making me not want to risk buying Inquisition.

[Lee80]

The point of the Keep is to build a world state that does import into inquisition.  Otherwise you'd be stuck with a less then optimal default world state.  I hardly see how the site is in any way pointless.  Perhaps you don't appreciate all the hard work that has gone into making it possible for people to recreate their world states for the new game, but I and many others really appreciate the Keep for everything it is.  

 

Honestly the import system we had before was nearly broken beyond use, and starting fresh was absolutely the best possible solution.  Making your choices in the keep may seem like a chore to you, but imagine how much time it will save you in the long run.  Say for example you wanted to change the choice of "Alistair as King" to something else.  Instead of having to play all the way through DAO again, and then DA2 as well, you can simple change the tile (and any related tiles that need to be adjusted).  You just saved yourself 80 to 100 hours of gaming.  (However if you want to do that anyway you certainly are welcome to replay the games over as it's a blast to play them more then once).  

[Evamitchelle]

I'm trying to be reasonable here but seriously, why can you not just pick a save file from the Keep and have it autofill at least some major plot points? Is there any real reason? I'm entirely serious, if there is some technical issue I'm not seeing here I'd like to hear it. As it stands now though, the sole reason I can even think of for pushing this kind of thing is to try to force more people into registering and using their Origin accounts, which certainly does not sit right with me at all. 

 

• Save game imports are bugged and can't be fixed without patching DAO, DAA and DA2.
• DAI is a cross-gen game, meaning that the devs would have to make the save import work on 5 different platforms instead of 1 like the Keep
• People who have upgraded to next-gen console would be unable to import their games
• Newcomer would be unable to set their own worldstate

It's not a conspiracy theory to force players to sign up for Origin, the Keep is just the better option. 

[Revankist]

Well for starters this is a beta of the Keep so its not finished, and since no one has ever done anything like this I will admit I think its coming along very well.

Sure its not perfect and it needs work but it will get there.

[HH92]

All the work in the world can go into a bad idea, but that doesn't make the idea less bad. I understand how it may have seemed like I don't appreciate the work that's been put into the Keep, I do. But I still don't see how the exclusion of an import feature could possibly be justified.

 

 

Honestly the import system we had before was nearly broken beyond use, and starting fresh was absolutely the best possible solution.  Making your choices in the keep may seem like a chore to you, but imagine how much time it will save you in the long run.  Say for example you wanted to change the choice of "Alistair as King" to something else.  Instead of having to play all the way through DAO again, and then DA2 as well, you can simple change the tile (and any related tiles that need to be adjusted).  You just saved yourself 80 to 100 hours of gaming.  (However if you want to do that anyway you certainly are welcome to replay the games over as it's a blast to play them more then once).  

 

How was the import system broken beyond use? 0_o You make a decision in a game, the game changes a value from 1 to 0 in your save, the next game checks which values are 0 or 1 and changes accordingly. It's literally that simple, and every other Bioware game with continuing choices have used it effectively.

 

(re)Making choices in the Keep is more than just a chore, it's literally impossible for me without installing and playing the game all over again. How on earth am I expected to remember every single decision I've made across two games, and why is it suddenly my job to record them? 

 

I can appreciate the convenience for people who wish to change specific things in their game world, but that's entirely irrelevant. Being able to import a save to the Keep and using the Keep as it is has no reason to be mutually exclusive, both could exist without preventing the other.

 

 

 

• Save game imports are bugged and can't be fixed without patching DAO, DAA and DA2.
• DAI is a cross-gen game, meaning that the devs would have to make the save import work on 5 different platforms instead of 1 like the Keep
• People who have upgraded to next-gen console would be unable to import their games
• Newcomer would be unable to set their own worldstate

It's not a conspiracy theory to force players to sign up for Origin, the Keep is just the better option. 

 

 

My original post my have been misleading. I'm not saying there ought to be a save import feature in the game itself, I realize that would be impossible due to all the different platforms and the generation gap etc. etc. 

 

What I was asking is why is there no import feature in the Keep itself? I realize the Keep is necessary, but why not let people upload their save files to the Keep and have it automatically fill in as many recognized choices as possible? Why force players to recreate or replay their games entirely? I see no reason the Keep can't have the convenience for new players or for people who want to change decisions while also having an import feature. In other words, I'm not arguing against the Keep, I'm arguing the Keep should be able to import saves.

 

As for the "conspiracy theory", I wouldn't put it past EA to do something like that really. They've always seemed desperate to get people off Steam and on Origin, which is why they've restricted nearly all of their newer titles to Origin and forced Origin to be included with games like ME3. I doubt/hope this isn't some attempt to get people on Origin, but I've found it's always good to be cautious when companies with track records as bad as EA's are involved.

 

 

Say for example you wanted to change the choice of "Alistair as King" to something else.  Instead of having to play all the way through DAO again, and then DA2 as well, you can simple change the tile (and any related tiles that need to be adjusted).  You just saved yourself 80 to 100 hours of gaming.  (However if you want to do that anyway you certainly are welcome to replay the games over as it's a blast to play them more then once).  

 

Lets use this example again. Say I did indeed just want to change this one thing. In order to do that, I have to have both DA:O and DA2 registered on the same BSN-linked Origin account, have both characters working and ready to go, start the Keep and reconstruct every decision I've made in the entire game except for that one, then remember and reconstruct every decision I made in DA2.

 

Or, with a save import system, I could upload a DA:O or DA2 save, the Keep would automatically fill in the decisions it could recognize, then I could find the tapestry concerning Alistair as King and just change that.

 

How on earth is the former more convenient? I understand there are die-hard fans who have no problem reconstructing their saves in the Keep, but, if I even could remember every decision from both games, it should not be mandatory to spend so much time and effort on a problem that could easily be solved. My question that still stands is why this hasn't even been addressed let alone solved when Bioware has done far more complex things in the past.

[SadisticZeus]

 

So if the characters are not imported, and the choices and quests are not imported, and the major events that are supposed influence the game's world are not imported, why on earth even bother?

 

Now I understand the Keep is supposed to be some kind of social hub or something, and the world building mechanic will be useful for brand new players who will only have DA:I, but in my mind there is no excuse whatsoever for not including a simple save import system. A simple utility to read the checked plot flags (e.g. every other modern Bioware game) in a save file is all that's really needed here.

 

I'm trying to be reasonable here but seriously, why can you not just pick a save file from the Keep and have it autofill at least some major plot points? Is there any real reason? I'm entirely serious, if there is some technical issue I'm not seeing here I'd like to hear it. As it stands now though, the sole reason I can even think of for pushing this kind of thing is to try to force more people into registering and using their Origin accounts, which certainly does not sit right with me at all. 

 

TL;DR: The lack of a save import feature or really any point to the Keep is making me not want to risk buying Inquisition.

 

Althougth some of the reasons have been said above, i just wanted to add a couple of comments.

 

Save game importing has always had problems. Some may not notice but the devs do. For instance a character that survived DAO after importing my save into DA2 they were dead! The import system had problems with dealing with the older save system and with how the logic flags/decisions were handled. They have said before it was a struggle to get DA2 save imports to behave how they wanted. The keep is the ideal solution.

 

From a purely technical standpoint the keep allows them to focus wholly on a new system of saving without having to cobble something together which has to be able to read from several years worth of incorrect and poorly organised DAO/DA2 saves. I completely understand some people wont want to be bothered with it. Hence why there is a default state everyone has so you can just start a new story. Want to only clarify a couple of plot points from earlier games? Like did you warden survive etc? Then only pick that option in the keep and you are good to go.

 

As for social hub? Nah. I dont see it like that. Yes you can share your world state with friends but thats not really a  primary function of it. Its an extension of already existing Origin functional bits.

 

Last point. Its here to stay - and - as much as you dont like Dragon Age Keep it does allow devs to fix the legacy save game issues and allows players to choose options so their own story is reflected in DAI.

 

I am not much of a betting man but I won't be surprised to see a 'Mass Effect Citadel' that does exactly the same thing for the ME series. 

[Evamitchelle]

How was the import system broken beyond use? 0_o You make a decision in a game, the game changes a value from 1 to 0 in your save, the next game checks which values are 0 or 1 and changes accordingly. It's literally that simple, and every other Bioware game with continuing choices have used it effectively.

You said yourself you weren't very familiar with the previous games, so you may have missed the numerous import bugs that were present in DAA and DA2. For example if you ever gave Oghren gifts in Origin, all of his gifts in Awakening will only give him the minimum amount of approval, making it near impossible to complete his personal quest without the console. There was also a bug in DAA that made characters appear as dead if they were not taken into the final battle, leading to a bug in DA2 where Yevhen's quest would appear when it shouldn't because Nathaniel was incorrectly assumed dead. There was also another bug where playing any DLC reset the romance, so that the Origins companions would show up in DA2 and not remember romancing the Warden. There are more bugs like that.
 

(re)Making choices in the Keep is more than just a chore, it's literally impossible for me without installing and playing the game all over again. How on earth am I expected to remember every single decision I've made across two games, and why is it suddenly my job to record them?

Have you tried the resources pointed out in the Common Issues thread ? One of the links literally explains every single tile in the Keep.
 

I can appreciate the convenience for people who wish to change specific things in their game world, but that's entirely irrelevant. Being able to import a save to the Keep and using the Keep as it is has no reason to be mutually exclusive, both could exist without preventing the other.

Except for time and budget limits you mean ?
 

How on earth is the former more convenient? I understand there are die-hard fans who have no problem reconstructing their saves in the Keep, but, if I even could remember every decision from both games, it should not be mandatory to spend so much time and effort on a problem that could easily be solved.

Two things here: the Keep is completely optional, how exactly do you know that this problem would be 'easily solved' ?
 

My question that still stands is why this hasn't even been addressed let alone solved when Bioware has done far more complex things in the past.

This has been addressed by Bioware. For example here:

 

"To be clear, the import to same generation consoles hasn't been "removed." It never existed with our current engine. We would have needed to spend the time adding it, plus still come up with a solution for people that move on to other platforms.

In this case, we tried to find a solution that works for all platforms. "

[SadisticZeus]

 

 

 

What I was asking is why is there no import feature in the Keep itself? I realize the Keep is necessary, but why not let people upload their save files to the Keep and have it automatically fill in as many recognized choices as possible? Why force players to recreate or replay their games entirely? I see no reason the Keep can't have the convenience for new players or for people who want to change decisions while also having an import feature. In other words, I'm not arguing against the Keep, I'm arguing the Keep should be able to import saves.

 

As for the "conspiracy theory", I wouldn't put it past EA to do something like that really. They've always seemed desperate to get people off Steam and on Origin, which is why they've restricted nearly all of their newer titles to Origin and forced Origin to be included with games like ME3. I doubt/hope this isn't some attempt to get people on Origin, but I've found it's always good to be cautious when companies with track records as bad as EA's are involved.

 

 

 

ah you answered while i was typing my last post! Why not import in the keep itself? Because the original save files have faults - ie. decisions are not consistent across the first two games. The keep has clearly defined if x happened then y can happen but not z. This means the keep will start throwing up lots of warnings about incorrect decisions - choices you couldnt make because x character is dead etc. You would then still have to go through pretty much everything to check all your options and decisions. Also its a horrible user experience!

 

As for Origin - well its here to stay. Its better than uplay at least!  

[Fardreamer]

An import system and the Keep basically do the same things.

 

Most players have upgraded their systems since they played DA:O, so an import system is impossible.

 

So instead of doing both an import and a Keep, they decided to just do a Keep.

 

It's pretty simple, and take like 10 minutes to fill out.  Things like Origin and Steam and always online game are here to stay.  You may not like it, but it's the current state of gaming.  And it's only going to become more and more like this.

[DAJB]

It's not a conspiracy theory to force players to sign up for Origin, the Keep is just the better option. 

 

Heh. Being a natural cynic at heart, I rather suspect that's exactly what it is. Otherwise, why use what is essentially EA's online shop window as the starting point?  

 

But, I know what you mean. It's certainly not just that. Due to all the reasons we're all very familiar with, some kind of rebuild-your-world system was going to have to be built. And at least the Tapestry looks pretty!

[Evamitchelle]

Heh. Being a natural cynic at heart, I rather suspect that's exactly what it is. Otherwise, why use what is essentially EA's online shop window as the starting point?  

 

But, I know what you mean. It's certainly not just that. Due to all the reasons we're all very familiar with, some kind of rebuild-your-world system was going to have to be built. And at least the Tapestry looks pretty!

 

Well I'm sure EA would love having more people using Origin (and apparently Ubisoft is trying to do the same thing with Uplay now), but if the Keep is their nefarious plan, I don't think it's a very effective one. You can create an Origin ID for the Keep and not use the Origin client at all. And I find it a bit funny to see this line of thinking on the forums, since you need an Origin ID to even post here. 

[DAJB]

Well I'm sure EA would love having more people using Origin (and apparently Ubisoft is trying to do the same thing with Uplay now), but if the Keep is their nefarious plan, I don't think it's a very effective one. You can create an Origin ID for the Keep and not use the Origin client at all. And I find it a bit funny to see this line of thinking on the forums, since you need an Origin ID to even post here.

Well, I can only speak for myself obviously, but I had no Origin account before signing up for the Keep. I'd never heard of Origin and, if I had, I can't think of any reason why I would have wanted to sign up for it.

 

It may be totally wrong, of course, but that's where the thinking comes from.

[Evamitchelle]

Well, I can only speak for myself obviously, but I had no Origin account before signing up for the Keep. I'd never heard of Origin and, if I had, I can't think of any reason why I would have wanted to sign up for it.

 

It may be totally wrong, of course, but that's where the thinking comes from.

 

Probably. I play DA on PC so I've had an Origin account for a while, but I've never used Origin for anything else. 

[Senjougahara Hitagi]

I dunno if it haven't been said yet but one thing you have to take into consideration here is that the "import saves into Keep" feature would only work on PC anyway as the Keep can't run on Xbox 360 or PS3 web browsers (and I'm not even sure if you can upload saves from consoles online like this) and even though it can run on Xbox One and PS4, there is no DA:O and DA2 here to import from. So if they were to implement this, it would 'cause a lot more outrage then there currently is. People are more comfortable with this when they know, it's the same for everyone else, but should a certain group of people be treated differently than the others and... you know what I mean.

[Andraste_Reborn]

I think there are also legal difficulties with uploading console saves and reading the data from them, even apart from the fact that the old console browsers are outdated and won't run HTML5. I can see why they didn't bother fiddling around with an import system that only a minority of players would even be able to use, since most DAO and DA2 save games will be stranded on consoles anyway.

[Natureguy85]

I prefer the keep to a save import due to the aforementioned ability to change the world state without replaying the earlier games. I can remember what I did in my few playthroughs for most of the keep, and just needed reminders for when I met certain characters. Set it to what you want even if it's not exactly what you did years ago. If it mattered that much to you, don't you think you'd remember it?

[serenai]

I dunno if it haven't been said yet but one thing you have to take into consideration here is that the "import saves into Keep" feature would only work on PC anyway as the Keep can't run on Xbox 360 or PS3 web browsers (and I'm not even sure if you can upload saves from consoles online like this) and even though it can run on Xbox One and PS4, there is no DA:O and DA2 here to import from. So if they were to implement this, it would 'cause a lot more outrage then there currently is. People are more comfortable with this when they know, it's the same for everyone else, but should a certain group of people be treated differently than the others and... you know what I mean.

 

Yep, only PC would be able to import a save file. It's really not worth the dev time to only code something this involved for just a subset of users.

 

I think there are also legal difficulties with uploading console saves and reading the data from them, even apart from the fact that the old console browsers are outdated and won't run HTML5. I can see why they didn't bother fiddling around with an import system that only a minority of players would even be able to use, since most DAO and DA2 save games will be stranded on consoles anyway.

 

I've definitely heard of restrictions on using Xbox saves and it's probably the same for PS. I can only imagine the screaming from MS if this was implemented 

 

It's not like the team didn't know that most would prefer to import their saves - they know people have been holding onto them specifically for the next DA. They said for a while that they were looking into the possibility, but obviously it didn't pan out.

 

Edited to add: If I were given a choice between the two, I'd still go with re-entering everything of mine in the Keep. I know how buggy those save files were and I want ZERO chance of more bugged import flags - they were very disappointing. That's just me, though.. maybe there are more adventurous types out there

[Kantr]

IF you cant be bothered making choices. There's always the yolo button

[Shadow of Ashes]

Since I can't think of anything else that hasn't been covered, I just want to reaffirm that the Keep is still in beta and not the finished product. There is that possibility that sometime in the future the team will find a way to sync your game data and import the choices you made without having to manually change them. For the moment, and for Inquisition, this is what we were given with the tremendous efforts of the Bioware and specifically DA team. It may be disappointing for some, but who knows what could be added in the future. Since we're not the ones making all of this, our job is to wait patiently and see what comes.

 

The last line is something my uncle used to say, so I'm not trying to seem condescending.  He used to beta-test lots of things.

[Tenz83]

All I can think of when I read this thread: in the time you can write up your complaint you would have gone through have gone through half your tapestry at least. Your complaining literally about a something that takes a few minutes to do. Your entitled to your opinion and I respect it, but I for one certainly don't understand it.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Aside from not remembering in some cases, what possible difference does it make for DAI whether you have to fill out choices manually or the game imported into the Keep?

[Devil's Avocado]

 

 

What I was asking is why is there no import feature in the Keep itself? I realize the Keep is necessary, but why not let people upload their save files to the Keep and have it automatically fill in as many recognized choices as possible? Why force players to recreate or replay their games entirely? I see no reason the Keep can't have the convenience for new players or for people who want to change decisions while also having an import feature. In other words, I'm not arguing against the Keep, I'm arguing the Keep should be able to import saves.

 

Everyone else has replied and answered most of your comments quite well but I wanted to further emphasize the key question your asking here.

You ask this question as if bioware neglected the key method in which information was passed on before. They've been working on this over the course of DA:I development and in all they time we were given the Keep as our answer. Maybe the answer it more simple, they can't. Too difficult, time consuming, too budget draining, console users get shafted and would require a whole other app to read their save files which cause legal issues with MS/Sony, forces them to focus resources on something that could have gone to better use.

Another thing to consider, they wanted a long term solution, for any future DA games. The Keep can be used no matter which engine they choose to use in the future and they don't have to rebuild the import system every time they decide to change engines. DA2 could have benefited from an engine change (which was 9 years outdated by then)

 

[Fizzie Panda]

So the actual beta testers before this went public have been using this for months and it's perfectly fine.

How is it not up to your standards? Most major choices are in the Keep.

[Kantr]

So the actual beta testers before this went public have been using this for months and it's perfectly fine.

How is it not up to your standards? Most major choices are in the Keep.

some of them about a year ( I think)

[Sparketh]

So the actual beta testers before this went public have been using this for months and it's perfectly fine.

How is it not up to your standards? Most major choices are in the Keep.

I think the OP mostly doesn't follow as closely as most of us who are excited about the keep have been. Also, one playthrough of DAII that went well for the most part is not going to demonstrate all the problems most people had. OP's assumptions that a basic import would be the simplest method isn't baseless with that sort of past experience.

 

Now, the "can't get into the save files" bit has always bugged me since journals have uploaded (at least for Origins) to LBSN. I don't doubt that the saves are proprietary and locked, but it's a bit like saying that I don't have access to my money because my bank locks their vaults. My hope is that the resources not put into translating DAO journals into keep choices were instead allocated to things like making sure DAI properly acknowledges keep flags.

 

As to people being perfectly fine, I would argue that we are more pacified as a result of Bioware's general eagerness to entertain our feedback. The Keep is decent at this point, but there's still a lot missing that would take it from decent to awesome. But hey, if Bioware is going to continue listening to us and making post-launch Keep improvements, I'm looking forward to it.