943 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

I don't get why Cole disapproves, as far as I know, he has no reason to care about politics. It would make more sense for him to stay neutral. 

I think it's more cause you let Celene die when you had the capacity to save her.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't get why Cole disapproves, as far as I know, he has no reason to care about politics. It would make more sense for him to stay neutral. 

Cole is about ending pain and helping people. Supporting a warmonger tends to go against that. 

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

Cole is about ending pain and helping people. Supporting a warmonger tends to go against that. 

I don't mean to insult Cole, but I doubt he has the insight on the whole picture of Orlesian politics, and know that Gaspard support expansionism. I think it's more like what Eluvianus Rex said.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't mean to insult Cole, but I doubt he has the insight on the whole picture of Orlesian politics, and know that Gaspard support expansionism. I think it's more like what Eluvianus Rex said.

Cole can read minds, remember. He has better insight than anyone on what people are planning. 

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

Cole can read minds, remember. He has better insight than anyone on what people are planning. 

You are not forced to take him to the Winter Palace, and I doubt his mind reading range capacity are that long in case he wasn't at the Ball. To be fair, Celene despite not supporting expansionism she's not that clean or a good person. I still skeptical that Cole truly has the best insight of the whole picture.

[StrangeStrategy]

You can not take him to the Winter Palace at all, and I doubt his mind reading range capacity are that long in case he weren't at the Ball. To be fair, Celene despite not supporting expansionism she's not that clean or a good person.

 

Huh? How is Celene not a good person? Nobody is clean in Orlais, that can go without saying (Well, you know what I mean. Their hands are dirty, no doubt they smell wonderful though) but I think Celene did what she must to ensure Orlais' future.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

Huh? How is Celene not a good person? Nobody is clean in Orlais, that can go without saying (Well, you know what I mean. Their hands are dirty, no doubt they smell wonderful though) but I think Celene did what she must to ensure Orlais' future.

You mean she did what she must to ensure her position on the throne. In the end she always chooses herself before anyone. Don't be biased here, but if you're saying Celene did everything for Orlais, then Gaspard is the same despite differences in ideal, goal and method.

[StrangeStrategy]

You mean she did what she must to ensure her position on the throne. In the end she always chooses herself before anyone. Don't be biased here, but if you're saying Celene did everything for Orlais, then Gaspard is the same despite differences in ideal, goal and method.

 

Ensuring her position on the throne / good of Orlais... same thing.... darling.

Its true that "the good of Orlais" has a different meaning for each person and certainly does Gaspard/Celene, but I think the majority of reasonable people can agree that it is better for Orlais to be ruled by a dedicated Empress capable of leading a country through cleverness, while encouraging culture and education in her country. Meanwhile, Gaspard is like Robert Baratheon... He wants to unite Orlais through war... He doesn't care for ruling, politics, and he certainly doesn't care for what actually makes civilizations lasting and great: Education and culture. Greeks, you know? Nearly everything in one way or another started with them.
 

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

Ensuring her position on the throne / good of Orlais... same thing.

Its true that "the good of Orlais" has a different meaning for each person and certainly does Gaspard/Celene, but I think the majority of reasonable people can agree that it is better for Orlais to be ruled by a dedicated Empress capable of leading a country through cleverness, while encouraging culture and education in her country. Meanwhile, Gaspard is like Robert Baratheon... He wants to unite Orlais through war... He doesn't care for ruling, politics, and he certainly doesn't care for what actually makes civilizations lasting and great: Education and culture. Greeks, you know? Nearly everything in one way or another started with them.
 

With that logic you assume that a ruler ensuring their position on the throne is a good thing for the entire nation, even though that ruler is cruel tyrant or self-serving corrupted one who cares about themselves and their own power only will be good for the nation. It's not the same thing, darling.

 

You do realize that Celene despite successfully rules Orlais for years is the same person who let her country go to this state right? Gaspard and his compatriots rebel for good reason. Both want to see Orlais strong in their own way, both has pros and cons, and pardon me but everyone has the right to their own opinion and belief, and proclaiming the people who share your opinion as better while judging the people whose opinion are different than yours doesn't make you look any better. You're not a reasonable person at all, if you're judging people who's different than you left and right like that. You have already made your own speculation that Orlais would fall under his rules, while we barely know what hold in the future, and according to DAI epilogue Orlais is doing fine under his rules. In fact he's the one who accepts the result of peace-talk with Ferelden is a good sign that...as you called warmonger tyrant is not cut and dried as you made him to be.

[StrangeStrategy]

With that logic you assume that a ruler ensuring their position on the throne is a good thing for the entire nation, even though that ruler is cruel tyrant or self-serving corrupted one who cares about themselves and their own power only will be good for the nation. It's not the same thing, darling.

 

You do realize that Celene despite successfully rules Orlais for years is the same person who let her country go to this state right? Gaspard and his compatriots rebel for good reason. Both want to see Orlais strong in their own way, both has pros and cons, and pardon me but everyone has the right to their own opinion and belief, and proclaiming the people who share your opinion as better while judging the people whose opinion are different than yours doesn't make you look any better. You're not a reasonable person at all, if you're judging people who's different than you left and right like that. You have already made your own speculation that Orlais would fall under his rules, while we barely know what hold in the future, and according to DAI epilogue Orlais is doing fine under his rules. In fact he's the one who accepts the result of peace-talk with Ferelden is a good sign that...as you called warmonger tyrant is not cut and dried as you made him to be.

 

No, not any "ruler", Celene. I'll remind you that despite the ominous tone it carries today, Tyrants were often good rulers and got stuff done in ancient times. And Celene certainly isn't a tyrant, unless you call immediately making Briala a marquise instead of patiently changing minds a tyrant's decision, which I'm sure you wouldn't xD

 

Celene didn't "let" her country get into that state. It was doing rather fine until Gaspard's rebellion... As for the epilogue, I wouldn't trust it... Everything ends happily, every loose end tied up. Leliana somehow manages to convince everyone to play nice if she becomes Divine, which would/should have been impossible. The epilogue doesn't go to far into the future, anyhow. Who knows how Gaspard will rule, or if anyone's success will last.

 

I don't think I called Gaspard a warmongering tyrant, I called him a "Robert Baratheon". If Gaspard doesn't go to war against Ferelden, then what? Wasn't that his whole plan: Unite Orlais by re-conquering Ferelden? Without a war to commit to, he is going to have to rule Orlais the same way Celene did. "Peacefully" at court.
 

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

No, not any "ruler", Celene. I'll remind you that despite the ominous tone it carries today, Tyrants were often good rulers and got stuff done in ancient times. And Celene certainly isn't a tyrant, unless you call immediately making Briala a marquise instead of patiently changing minds a tyrant's decision, which I'm sure you wouldn't xD

 

Celene didn't "let" her country get into that state. It was doing rather fine until Gaspard's rebellion... As for the epilogue, I wouldn't trust it... Everything ends happily, every loose end tied up. Leliana somehow manages to convince everyone to play nice if she becomes Divine, which would/should have been impossible. The epilogue doesn't go to far into the future, anyhow. Who knows how Gaspard will rule, or if anyone's success will last.

 

I don't think I called Gaspard a warmongering tyrant, I called him a "Robert Baratheon". If Gaspard doesn't go to war against Ferelden, then what? Wasn't that his whole plan: Unite Orlais by re-conquering Ferelden? Without a war to commit to, he is going to have to rule Orlais the same way Celene did. "Peacefully" at court.
 

Perhaps I should make my sentence more clear. I meant the self-serving tyrants, and we already see how certain self-serving tyrant is bad for the nation in Dragon Age universe before for example Arland Theirin, King Valtor. Being a tyrant doesn't always mean you'll be a good ruler who get the job done properly in ancient times. Celene allowed Orlais to reach this state, and it was her incompetence and weakness that allow it. If Gaspard wouldn't have any support if his quest is a grab for power alone, and if Celene is competence ruler then many nobles wouldn't support Gaspard.

 

No, she "let" her country get into that state in the first place which is why Gaspard and his supporters decide to rebel. You should know that Gaspard is the person who offer Celene a chance to compromise with him so the civil wars could be avoided, but of course she turned him down. In that case you shouldn't trust....everything to ends happily, every loose end tied up in Celene's ending either. I agree about the unhardened Leliana as the Divine one, it's simply unrealistic. We can argue about that forever. Who knows how Celene will rule, unchallenged forever? who knows if another person like Gaspard would rise and challenge Celene's rules? I don't know that, and you obviously had no way of knowing that. Your biased speculation will lead to nothing more than an endless debate.

 

I think you called him that in one of your previous posts in this thread. Nevertheless people who prefer Celene call him that. You also should know that plans can always change, and his whole plan of "Making Orlais strong, united Orlais by re-conquering lesser nation" change slightly. He simply changes his target from Ferelden to Tevinter Imperium. He has not invade the Imperium yet, but he simply moves his troops to fortify Orais-Tevinter border, oh that he might...but he keeps his challengers in line. He rules Orlais unopposed for the moment and no one dare to oppose him with the Inquisition backed him, like Celene in case you side with her. However as I said nothing is set in stone. If you're saying Gaspard cannot rule Orlais forever, then Celene cannot rule Orlais forever. It's a fact, and Gaspard's rebellion proves that Celene cannot rule Orlais forever.

[dragonflight288]

I don't like either of them, but having started the series in Ferelden, I feel a sense of nationalistic pride for it, so I can't stand to have Gaspard on the throne because he'll invade Ferelden. 

 

They are recovering from a blight and most of the mage/templar fighting was in the Hinterlands. Ferelden can use less conflict. 

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

I don't like either of them, but having started the series in Ferelden, I feel a sense of nationalistic pride for it, so I can't stand to have Gaspard on the throne because he'll invade Ferelden. 

You can side with Gaspard, and find a way to prevent the second Orlais-Ferelden war from happening entirely you know with careful diplomacy.

[Obadiah]

Gaspard doesn't have a mask on in his ending slide. Is the game over with him in charge?

 

The main reason I don't want Gaspard to rule is that he uses his chivalry and honor to reinforce the stratified class system of Orlais, which Celene was at least trying to reform. It is a perspective that leads him to do things like threaten to burn an entire city to kill one person, or sacrifice thousands as collateral in a civil war, to keep the mages and elves in their place.

 

He delivers his perspective in a manner that is charming as hell tho.

[Jaison1986]

I don't like either of them, but having started the series in Ferelden, I feel a sense of nationalistic pride for it, so I can't stand to have Gaspard on the throne because he'll invade Ferelden. 

 

They are recovering from a blight and most of the mage/templar fighting was in the Hinterlands. Ferelden can use less conflict. 

 

Like it was said, that can be avoided. But you're right, both of them are jerks. But Gaspard is the direct jerk that keeps his word if you earn his trust, while Celene is the backstabbing kind of jerk that betrays just about anyone for her personal benefit. She murders her own lover's parents for her personal benefit while playing the game, she haves an entire district burned down to impose the strenght of her rule, she takes the throne of Orlais when it wasn't rightfully hers. Keeping appearances is more important then actually ruling it seems.

[dragonflight288]

You can side with Gaspard, and find a way to prevent the second Orlais-Ferelden war from happening entirely you know with careful diplomacy.

 

Right. Blackmail solves all our problems. 

[The Baconer]

Gaspard doesn't have a mask on in his ending slide. Is the game over with him in charge?

 

No.

[dragonflight288]

Like it was said, that can be avoided. But you're right, both of them are jerks. But Gaspard is the direct jerk that keeps his word if you earn his trust, while Celene is the backstabbing kind of jerk that betrays just about anyone for her personal benefit. She murders her own lover's parents for her personal benefit while playing the game, she haves an entire district burned down to impose the strenght of her rule, she takes the throne of Orlais when it wasn't rightfully hers. Keeping appearances is more important then actually ruling it seems.

 

Preaching to the choir here. I've read Masked Empire and by the end of it decided I didn't like either of them.

[thesuperdarkone2]

You can avoid that entirely you know with careful diplomacy.

Mind giving the Inquisitor that crystal ball of metagaming that you people always rely on. I'd laugh out loud if the peace option wasn't counted in the Keep, then what would Gaspard supporters say then?

 

One, your advisor's outright says that the Chevaliers support Gaspard because Celene is trying to make peace with Ferelden and Nevarra so he is supported because he wants war.

 

Two, Gaspard outright says he wants to invade Ferelden and become an expansionist. Why would anyone assume that he wants peace when his stated goal is starting war?

 

Also, if Gaspard makes peace, what does he offer that Celene doesn't? What does he do for diplomacy, trade? If the entire reason he wanted war was to unite Orlais, how is he going to unite Orlais if he won't make war?

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

Right. Blackmail solves all our problems. 

Well, there are other ways....you have to rely on Josie's skills.

[dragonflight288]

Well, there are other ways....you have to rely on Josie's skills.

 

Who's probably using blackmail or bribes as part of her repertoire of courtly assets. 

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

Mind giving the Inquisitor that crystal ball of metagaming that you people always rely on. I'd laugh out loud if the peace option wasn't counted in the Keep, then what would Gaspard supporters say then?

Oh that's rich. Said the person who wants to reconcile Celene & Briala because after you read TME ...you find that unhealthy toxic, abusive relationship romantic. You have the gall to accuse many of us Gaspard's supporters metagaming while you're metagaming yourself? You're very hypocritical, and I doubt that war table peace-talk mission wouldn't be counted in the Keep since it affects one of the endings.

[Jaison1986]

Mind giving the Inquisitor that crystal ball of metagaming that you people always rely on. I'd laugh out loud if the peace option wasn't counted in the Keep, then what would Gaspard supporters say then?

 

One, your advisor's outright says that the Chevaliers support Gaspard because Celene is trying to make peace with Ferelden and Nevarra so he is supported because he wants war.

 

Two, Gaspard outright says he wants to invade Ferelden and become an expansionist. Why would anyone assume that he wants peace when his stated goal is starting war?

 

Also, if Gaspard makes peace, what does he offer that Celene doesn't? What does he do for diplomacy, trade? If the entire reason he wanted war was to unite Orlais, how is he going to unite Orlais if he won't make war?

 

One thing Gaspard does is to end the game, and actually make the nobles deal with the problems of the country directly, rather then sit on their asses all day drinking wine and plotting how to humiliate other nobles in their petty rivalries. What an idiotic exercise. Celene just endorse this pointless practices.

[thesuperdarkone2]

One thing Gaspard does is to end the game, and actually make the nobles deal with the problems of the country directly, rather then sit on their asses all day drinking wine and plotting how to humiliate other nobles in their petty rivalries. What an idiotic exercise. Celene just endorse this pointless practices.

Unless Gaspard plans on killing every noble in Orlais, I highly doubt that. Drakon tried to get rid of it and it failed. If not even he could get rid of it, I highly doubt Gaspard would.

[Jaison1986]

Unless Gaspard plans on killing every noble in Orlais, I highly doubt that. Drakon tried to get rid of it and it failed. If not even he could get rid of it, I highly doubt Gaspard would.

 

The ending slide says as it follows: "He rules unopposed. Each noble house that rises up against him soon realizes it has made it's last mistake". And he doesn't need to kill them all. Just enough to set an example and show who is in charge.