943 réponses à ce sujet

[The Baconer]

He wasn't wrong.

 

No, he was wrong. Not only wrong, but completely ignorant.

[Master Warder Z_]

No, he was wrong. Not only wrong, but completely ignorant.

Employing the circle of Orlais in war would have completely negated rising tensions in the circle.

It would have given the world time to catch it's breath.

Forget, forgive, move on.

It also would given excuse to make that moron Fiona disappear into a war zone for a few years.

That can only be positive.

[The Baconer]

Employing the circle of Orlais in war would have completely negated rising tensions in the circle.

 

No, it wouldn't have.

 

Not to mention, they can't even send the Circle to war against another Andrastian nation, but obviously his stupid ass didn't understand that.

[Master Warder Z_]

No, it wouldn't have.

Not to mention, they can't even send the Circle to war against another Andrastian nation, but obviously his stupid ass didn't understand that.

Whatever your delusion has to say on the matter.

[The Baconer]

Whatever your delusion has to say on the matter.

 

Haha, quick on the "delusion" slinging when you've got nothin'.

 

You can just admit that you now realize his plan was stupid, nobody here would think any less of you.

[Augustei]

Employing the circle of Orlais in war would have completely negated rising tensions in the circle.

It would have given the world time to catch it's breath.

Forget, forgive, move on.

It also would given excuse to make that moron Fiona disappear into a war zone for a few years.

That can only be positive.

No, it wouldn't have.

 

Not to mention, they can't even send the Circle to war against another Andrastian nation, but obviously his stupid ass didn't understand that.

Didn't Gaspard state he would have his soldiers take over the circles if needed? That would have been a dumb move as far as Orlais is concerns but tbh I would actually prefer it for the precedent it sets. Having the states control the circles. It would have esentially destroyed if not been severely damaging to the Templar Order, and by extension been severely damaging to Orlesian transnational influence, as Emperor of Orlais this would have been a very bad move, but Thedas would probably be better off because of it.

As to his conscription of the circle. How that would have ended would depend entirely on his handling of it, It certainly could have blown up in his face if he went about it in the wrong way, or it could have worked out extremely well if he did it right. All of this is pure speculation though, since we never actually witnessed him do it.
But imo he couldn't have conscripted the mages without seriously alienating one of the two factions.
Things with the mages were tense, his calling for their conscription would raise these tensions and the mages would use it as an oppotunity to ply concessions out of him to obtain some greater degree of freedoms.
Loghain tried a similar thing with the mages in Ferelden, he promised them more freedoms in exchange for millitary support. It actually almost worked before Wynne showed up.
I feel that despite the tensions, if Gaspard promised them some degree of more freedoms for their millitary support it would have worked and muffled the growing voice of the Libertarion faction, so in this regard it would have been a smart move. But would have alienated the Templars to a degree, Though since they weren't the ones clamoring for rebellion it wouldn't be so bad. Its not like they would take up arms against the Emperor of Orlais, it would just strain relations if the mages actually did rebel in the future, which is alot less likely with the muffled Libertarions and the breathing room granted by the war to find a better solution.
If Gaspard went into the circle demanding the Mages stfu and submit to the will of the Templars, then thats when it would have blown up in his face imo. All it would do is give the Libertarions more traction and make rebellion more inevitable.

But as to your comments The Baconer. Didn't Orlais use the Orlesian circle during the last war with Ferelden? Sure there was no mention of mages in any great number but I remember there being some mages from the Orlesian circle in Gwaren?

Anyway as to the war against Ferelden? Yes I felt that was stupid, the timing was not right. Gaspard is right in the beneficial goal of giving the Empire an outward focus and how it could greatly help with the whole mage/templar thingn as well as providing a degree of minimilization to the the political infighting in Orlais, and there are certainly good reasons for Orlais to invade Ferelden. But right at that moment? No. It would have been wiser to focus his army north, or try to have Markus assassinated and then go to war with Ferelden. The Orlesians cant afford to invade Ferelden while Nevarra is still a threat to the north.
But the Orlesians should try to take Ferelden soon while its in its weakened state and not give it a chance to recover, Thats why if I was Gaspard i'd be trying to get Markus killed soon.

But whats Celenes solution? She doesn't like war at all and is to gutless to declare it unless she has little choice. What initially seemed like a genius plan to take over Ferelden through Cailan she threw aside in its infancy because "oh he's already married" ARE YOU SERIOUS?! LOL I thought she was smart.
How to deal with the Mage/Templar conflict? "Oh let the divine take care of it, in the mean time I will make concessions for her"
Then the elves start rioting in Halamshiral "Oh well i'll be seen to do nothing for a long while and then when I start loosing a bit of favor with the court I will personally drag a few troops into street combat to deal with it". And despite massive influence over the sunburst throne and White Chantry thedas. What did she do about Kirkwall? Nothing at all.... We keep hearing about how all eyes are on Kirkwall, but they're just bloody watching.

Tbh I think they're both idiots, but at least Gaspards plans make some semblance of sense. Celene had her chance on the Imperial throne and she was a miserable failure, now its Gaspards turn. If he sucks as much my Inquisitor will remove him, or wait him out if its not to bad.. Guys 70 anyway so it wont take long

As to those expansionist haters and Celene fans, well all I can say is. Welcome to Feudalism! You've been here since the start of the series.......

[Master Warder Z_]

Haha, quick on the "delusion" slinging when you've got nothin'.

You can just admit that you now realize his plan was stupid, nobody here would think any less of you.

You didn't offer anything beyond "no" friend.

My main point is that I believe he wasn't wrong, it could have offered a solution to the crisis at the time, but it ultimately didn't come to matter much.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I find the fact that there is a peace option if Gaspard becomes emperor to be completely idiotic. His entire goals were based on starting wars to unite Orlais. If he doesn't start a war, what is he going to do now? He never offers a plan for Orlais that doesn't involve war so what is he going to do without a war? I get the feeling Bioware only included the peace option with Gaspard only so he would blatantly be the worst choice. Lets be honest, how many people would honestly side with Gaspard if there was no peace option and he always invaded Ferelden if he became emperor.

 

P.S. Anyone else find it interesting that Harrowmont supports Gaspard yet Bhelen supports Celene. Is Bioware trying to tell us something.

[Master Warder Z_]

Gaspard turns his attention to people actually worth his time if the peace talk option is taken.

Hence it still fits the character.

Nevarra and Tevinter are better foes then some blight infested dog lord hovel.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Gaspard turns his attention to people actually worth his time if the peace talk option is taken.

Hence it still fits the character.

Nevarra and Tevinter are better foes then some blight infested dog lord hovel.

So you outright admit if he doesn't start war with Ferelden, he'll start a war with Nevarra. My inquistor's are trying to make the world better, not put warmongers in charge. It doesn't matter who they invade, if they want a war, I'm not helping them. No tears were shed for Gaspard's execution.

[Master Warder Z_]

So you outright admit if he doesn't start war with Ferelden, he'll start a war with Nevarra.

No.

He will move to retake occupied territories.

Beyond that, they had border skirmishes under Celene and Florian.

It's simply their relation.

It's been that way for a century.

[The Baconer]

You didn't offer anything beyond "no" friend.

 

Except explaining why it wouldn't even work, sure.

 

But whatever, keep doing your thing.

 

 

Didn't Gaspard state he would have his soldiers take over the circles if needed? That would have been a dumb move as far as Orlais is concerns but tbh I would actually prefer it for the precedent it sets. Having the states control the circles. It would have esentially destroyed if not been severely damaging to the Templar Order, and by extension been severely damaging to Orlesian transnational influence, as Emperor of Orlais this would have been a very bad move, but Thedas would probably be better off because of it.

 

Do you really think putting the destructive powers of magic at the beck and call of the least responsible and accountable demographic in Thedas would be beneficial?

 

 

As to his conscription of the circle. How that would have ended would depend entirely on his handling of it, It certainly could have blown up in his face if he went about it in the wrong way, or it could have worked out extremely well if he did it right. All of this is pure speculation though, since we never actually witnessed him do it.
But imo he couldn't have conscripted the mages without seriously alienating one of the two factions.
Things with the mages were tense, his calling for their conscription would raise these tensions and the mages would use it as an oppotunity to ply concessions out of him to obtain some greater degree of freedoms.
Loghain tried a similar thing with the mages in Ferelden, he promised them more freedoms in exchange for millitary support. It actually almost worked before Wynne showed up.
I feel that despite the tensions, if Gaspard promised them some degree of more freedoms for their millitary support it would have worked and muffled the growing voice of the Libertarion faction, so in this regard it would have been a smart move. But would have alienated the Templars to a degree, Though since they weren't the ones clamoring for rebellion it wouldn't be so bad. Its not like they would take up arms against the Emperor of Orlais, it would just strain relations if the mages actually did rebel in the future, which is alot less likely with the muffled Libertarions and the breathing room granted by the war to find a better solution.
If Gaspard went into the circle demanding the Mages stfu and submit to the will of the Templars, then thats when it would have blown up in his face imo. All it would do is give the Libertarions more traction and make rebellion more inevitable.

 

There's literally no way a "conscription" of the Circle would end well for Gaspard. The Circles are a part of the Chantry, not the local government. Trying to take control away from them, and using the mages to invade other countries on top of that, would end in his ass being tanned in an Exalted March at best, or lead to another schism at worst. Well, and that's assuming the nobles don't just turn on him as soon as the Chantry does.

 

In addition, the tension between the mages and Templars is a dilemma for every Circle, not just the White Spire. How is sending the Orlesian mages and Templars to war, quite possibly against another Circle, supposed to stop or even delay the rebellion?

 

 

But as to your comments The Baconer. Didn't Orlais use the Orlesian circle during the last war with Ferelden? Sure there was no mention of mages in any great number but I remember there being some mages from the Orlesian circle in Gwaren?

 

Fereldan at the time was not considered a sovereign nation, with Maric and his followers being deemed rebels, which is why the Chantry gave the support needed to deploy Circle mages. The context was not at all the same.

 

Imagine now Gaspard trying to get Justinia's permission to use the mages and Templars of the White Spire to subjugate another Andrastian kingdom.

 

 

Gaspard is right in the beneficial goal of giving the Empire an outward focus and how it could greatly help with the whole mage/templar thingn

 

As I explained, no it wouldn't have. 

 

 

as well as providing a degree of minimilization to the the political infighting in Orlais,

 

What political infighting?

 

 

and there are certainly good reasons for Orlais to invade Ferelden. But right at that moment? No. It would have been wiser to focus his army north, or try to have Markus assassinated and then go to war with Ferelden. The Orlesians cant afford to invade Ferelden while Nevarra is still a threat to the north.

 

Which is why I consider Gaspard a stupid-ass and a danger to his own people. Of course, to render him of any worth requires not only the Inquisition solving Orlais' biggest problems before he screws them up further (Mage/Templar War and Civil War), but also holding his hand and explaining to him why invading Fereldan in Orlais' current state is really dumb idea.

 

[Catche Jagger]

I find the fact that there is a peace option if Gaspard becomes emperor to be completely idiotic. His entire goals were based on starting wars to unite Orlais. If he doesn't start a war, what is he going to do now? He never offers a plan for Orlais that doesn't involve war so what is he going to do without a war? I get the feeling Bioware only included the peace option with Gaspard only so he would blatantly be the worst choice. Lets be honest, how many people would honestly side with Gaspard if there was no peace option and he always invaded Ferelden if he became emperor.

 

P.S. Anyone else find it interesting that Harrowmont supports Gaspard yet Bhelen supports Celene. Is Bioware trying to tell us something.

 

Why are you reaching to claim that Bioware is trying to push some sort of agenda within the universe which they created? I don't understand arguments like this one, which say that Bioware somehow pushes for to players to pick a specific option. Wouldn't their goal be to make the choice somewhat difficult or, dare I say, compelling?

 

Why the hell does it matter why there's a peace option? What matters is that it's there and people can choose to take it. It doesn't matter what would have happened if Bioware had not given such an option because, in the context of this specific discussion, what matters is that such an option does exist.

 

---

 

Hmmmm... yes, what could Bioware be trying to tell us with that? Could it be that a man who has traditionalist values might admire a nationalistic military ruler and a cutthroat reformer might admire one who is also a politically savvy reformer? That's what it says to me, at least.

[fcedric]

Damn Gaspard, he wanted to go in war with Alistair my best friend... 

But i think Celene have been very hard to kill him... In my 1st game, i 'm the ruler of Orlais, and the 3 are working for me...

In my second playthrough, Briala and Celene are ruling, and i hadn't the choice to spare Gaspard... the choice is Spare Gaspard/reward for Briala... It is a shame... it is a good general but he would be a very very poor ruler...

[thesuperdarkone2]

Why are you reaching to claim that Bioware is trying to push some sort of agenda within the universe which they created? I don't understand arguments like this one, which say that Bioware somehow pushes for to players to pick a specific option. Wouldn't their goal be to make the choice somewhat difficult or, dare I say, compelling?

 

Why the hell does it matter why there's a peace option? What matters is that it's there and people can choose to take it. It doesn't matter what would have happened if Bioware had not given such an option because, in the context of this specific discussion, what matters is that such an option does exist.

 

---

 

Hmmmm... yes, what could Bioware be trying to tell us with that? Could it be that a man who has traditionalist values might admire a nationalistic military ruler and a cutthroat reformer might admire one who is also a politically savvy reformer? That's what it says to me, at least.

Funny since Bioware seems to go short of outright saying that Harrowmont is the wrong choice and Bhelen is right:

 

 

 

They're not so subtly saying that everyone who chose Harrowmont is wrong. Wouldn't put it past them to do something similar with regards to Celene and Gaspard.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Damn Gaspard, he wanted to go in war with Alistair my best friend... 

But i think Celene have been very hard to kill him... In my 1st game, i 'm the ruler of Orlais, and the 3 are working for me...

In my second playthrough, Briala and Celene are ruling, and i hadn't the choice to spare Gaspard... the choice is Spare Gaspard/reward for Briala... It is a shame... it is a good general but he would be a very very poor ruler...

Don't forget he is willing to tell an elven inquisitor that elves have no place in politics straight to their face. Gaspard went full-derp.

[Master Warder Z_]

Gaspard does fine as Emperor.

Just as I knew he would.

Anything beyond that is opinion or speculation.

[Augustei]

I find the fact that there is a peace option if Gaspard becomes emperor to be completely idiotic. His entire goals were based on starting wars to unite Orlais. If he doesn't start a war, what is he going to do now? He never offers a plan for Orlais that doesn't involve war so what is he going to do without a war? I get the feeling Bioware only included the peace option with Gaspard only so he would blatantly be the worst choice. Lets be honest, how many people would honestly side with Gaspard if there was no peace option and he always invaded Ferelden if he became emperor.

 

P.S. Anyone else find it interesting that Harrowmont supports Gaspard yet Bhelen supports Celene. Is Bioware trying to tell us something.

Bhelen wants trade to resume quickly as the civil war disrupts it. Celene is already on the throne and thus more likely to get things back to normal quicker. She also seems to have more supporters among the nobility. But most importantly she has had trade talks with him about establishing new trade contracts.... Not like Gaspard can have these talks anyway since y'know, he's not Emperor at the time.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Gaspard does fine as Emperor.

Just as I knew he would.

Anything beyond that is opinion or speculation.

And Celene and Briala reconciled is my best ending and ended just fine, just as I suspected. Nobody could ever convince me to kill Celene and put that a-hole in charge.

[TheKomandorShepard]

And Celene and Briala reconciled is my best ending and ended just fine, just as I suspected. Nobody could ever convince me to kill Celene and put that a-hole in charge.

lol ahole gaspard is saint when compared to celene.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

lol ahole gaspard is saint when compared to celene.

Eh, both are terrible people who have done terrible things. I wouldn't say either is a saint compared to the other. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

lol ahole gaspard is saint when compared to celene.

Celene didn't outright tell my elven inquisitor racist comments to his face and Celene didn't outright tell my Inquisitor she's planning to start a war.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Eh, both are terrible people who have done terrible things. I wouldn't say either is a saint compared to the other. 

Gaspard at least have code of honor even when not "paladin" like still there is something there.

 

Celene has nothing pure power hunger combined with no limitations what in fact i would support if not that she is incompetent.

 

 

Celene didn't outright tell my elven inquisitor racist comments to his face and Celene didn't outright tell my Inquisitor she's planning to start a war.

Cus celene is liar gaspard is at least honest

celene also didn't mention that she want to screw you over if her rivals are gone.

[Augustei]

*Snip*

1) Well considering the Chantry wouldn't release anymore than like 5 mages for Cailans army to go fight the blight, and that they are already used in wars in the Exalted Marches, and that the Imperial throne already exerts massive influence over the chantry then yes.

2) The Imperial Throne has the chantry under its heel, I doubt the Divine would call an Exalted March from the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux. But it doesnt fly in the face of any Chantry doctrine either, There is no mandate that gives the chantry control of mages.
A Conscription of the circle could certainly work, Especially under Divine Justinia V. I'd think she'd welcome the more freedom mages could potentially get as a result. Heck the women risked open rebellion for it.
The Nobles would not turn on him, they were asking the Imperial throne to intervene in the first place. They also want to conquer Ferelden, Seeing as how useful the mages would prove to be in this task I doubt any dissent would last long.
The White Spire is the biggest Circle of magi in thedas, silencing the libertations there could greatly swing the votes. Not to mention that Orlais has massiver influence over thedas anyway, Heck at least 2 of the fraternatie leaders (The most important one in this casethe Libertarions) Were Orlesian

3) He'd have the Orlesian Nobles and the mages themselves on his side. She'd be a fool not to grant permission. But I don't feel Conscripting the Mages is without its risks, it certainly does have them. But if he does play his cards right it could work out. Thats all i'm saying, but yes it could certainly blow up in his face.

4 & 5) The Political infighting that is the game, Giving the Empire an outward focus can minimilize the factional infighting the game brings (Though as I said I doubt it could end it) And the mimilization of the dessenting voices in the libertation faction from new mage freedoms and their conscription into war would give the Empire breathing room.

6) I view Celene as no less a danger, she did nothing about the Mage-Templar war, She is all about either inaction, bending to the courts will or picking the stupidist course of action. But yes I view him as a stupid danger as well, My Inquisitor needing to hold his hand and explain things to him? BONUS. Easily manipulated and easier to keep under the thumb? Thats my kind of Emperor

 

[Augustei]

Celene didn't outright tell my elven inquisitor racist comments to his face and Celene didn't outright tell my Inquisitor she's planning to start a war.

Her talk with the Inquisitor in The Arbor Wilds is a stark contrast to Gaspards. If I recall his its about a good war and how he's glad to be away from the court doing what he loves. But Celene's is "Its good to see the Inquisition fufilling its purpose" and "Orlais will help the Inquisition stop Corypheus"...So what does that mean of your support after that?!. To me it gives the not so subtle impression she either believes the Inquisition to be a temporary power or would very much like it to be so.  My Inquisitor really really wouldn't like such talk.
Heck even if she believes such things she should think before talking in such a way to the leader of the Inquisition.