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[Addai]

Just because Gaspard prefers open battle and Celene prefers deception and murder doesn't mean both of them won't resort to all means available to them- and they do. Celene is perfectly willing to turn the dogs loose on Halamshiral to try to save herself politically.

[The Baconer]

He planned to prove that "several hundred Chevaliers are better than diplomacy." He can be persuaded to let go of that ambition after his county was shredded by war, but it isn't like he has some other plan to fall back on.

 

You can probably still find bones of several hundred Chevaliers along the shores of River Dane.

[Xilizhra]

Please don't get offended or anything, but are you American? Because where I'm from it used to be and is still rather important who your parents were, and what they had - tangible or intangible - is legally very much yours by rights. (I'm not being condescending, btw, it honestly amuses me how differently people approach these things sometimes, depending on the culture they've been raised in  ).

I am American, yes.

 

 

From a medieval/feudal mindset the throne is absolutely Gaspard's by right. Celene is a usurper.

 

And I say that as someone who kept Celene in her fancy chair in my canon playthrough.

She's not a usurper; she had the support of the Council of Heralds. The imperial throne isn't guaranteed solely by primogeniture.

 

 

why do you insist on applying modern 21st standards of meritocracy to a Feudal setting?

I'm looking at it from the point of view of my elf Inquisitor, for whom bloodline is largely unimportant disregarding racial issues, and my qunari Inquisitor, for whom bloodline is utterly meaningless. Both have ample in-universe reason to consider blood politics idiotic.

[Master Warder Z_]

You can probably still find bones of several hundred Chevaliers along the shores of River Dane.

I strongly doubt that.

[Xilizhra]

I strongly doubt that.

True, the mabari probably ate them all.

[Master Warder Z_]

True, the mabari probably ate them all.

No I assume with Orlais actually being civilized, they actually collect their dead.

You might find Fereldan corpses though.

[Xilizhra]

No I assume with Orlais actually being civilized, they actually collect their dead.

You might find Fereldan corpses though.

I don't like the Qun, but this is reminding me why I approve of their "the body is no longer him" philosophy. Having to deploy forces to pick up corpses for funeral rites strikes me as mostly a waste of time; I'll give the Nevarrans an exception, because their reverence for the dead actually lets the dead do something useful.

[Master Warder Z_]

No comment.

[Xilizhra]

No comment.

I mean, I suppose I understand that it serves the purpose of soothing the emotions of the living, but can most dead soldiers with this tech level actually be brought back home in practical terms? Hell, Americans who died overseas in WW2 were buried in Europe because it'd just be too expensive to ship them back. If anything, you can just send a squad of people with torches, burn them all, and have that count.

[The Baconer]

No I assume with Orlais actually being civilized, they actually collect their dead.

 

Actually, their bodies were most likely burned at the site of the battle. Perhaps Olrais deigned to collect the left-over bones, but I doubt it.

[Master Warder Z_]

They don't have to go far.

Just back across the river.

[Catche Jagger]

I disagree. Pursuing something that only exists because of who your parents were is pursuing something you haven't earned, especially if the only reason you don't have it is because you were undiplomatic and pissed off people who shouldn't have been pissed off.

This is a medieval setting. The quality of one's birth is among the most important things about them. That's the whole reason a nobility is able to exist. Where they are born to is probably the most important part of their identity, especially in a land as decadent as Orlais.

To be robbed of one's birthright is to be robbed of one's identity, in a sense. It is as much a matter of honor as it is a matter of power.

I'm sure Gaspard did desire power to some degree (as does basically every person involved in the Game) but to call him power hungry is a bit of a stretch.

[Lady Artifice]

Just because Gaspard prefers open battle and Celene prefers deception and murder doesn't mean both of them won't resort to all means available to them- and they do. Celene is perfectly willing to turn the dogs loose on Halamshiral to try to save herself politically.

 

Agreed, but willingness doesn't equate to talent. 

 

One thing I do admire about Gaspard is his self awareness. He's very realistic and candid about his limitations and motives, and he's the first to acknowledge his abhorrence of the game and his general aversion to politics. He does, in fact, mention Celene's relative propensity for maneuvering through the scheming of the court more than once. When he first catches up to her after Halamshiral he's wary of listening to her because, as he claims, her relative gift for words is superior. At the Winter Palace in DAI, he mentions Celene "talking circles" around everyone. I see most of his admirer's disregard his own opinion on this, as though he can't judge his skills himself, but he knows what he's good at and what he isn't. He's an exceedingly skilled General, but his complete disinterest in politics and disdain for diplomacy is an entirely valid point of discussion. 

[DuskWanderer]

Agreed, but willingness doesn't equate to talent. 

 

One thing I do admire about Gaspard is his self awareness. He's very realistic and candid about his limitations and motives, and he's the first to acknowledge his abhorrence of the game and his general aversion to politics. He does, in fact, mention Celene's relative propensity for maneuvering through the scheming of the court more than once. When he first catches up to her after Halamshiral he's wary of listening to her because, as he claims, her relative gift for words is superior. At the Winter Palace in DAI, he mentions Celene "talking circles" around everyone. I see most of his admirer's disregard his own opinion on this, as though he can't judge his skills himself, but he knows what he's good at and what he isn't. He's an exceedingly skilled General, but his complete disinterest in politics and disdain for diplomacy is an entirely valid point of discussion. 

 

The same is true of Celene's talents. Considering her plan to gain Ferelden bore no fruit, and Celene herself being past the common age of childbearing, her diplomatic talents and skill at the Game leave much to be desired (after all, you need Josephine to enter into peace with Ferelden, as you do with Gaspard). Gaspard's talent is in the military, but he learns diplomacy and does a decent job of it. Celene, by contrast, is only at best an amateur in both areas. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Gaspard is great. I do not typically support his bid for emperor, but I wish I could conscript him into the Inquisition.

[Master Warder Z_]

Gaspard would end up Inquisitor in two weeks if that happened.

[Lady Artifice]

The same is true of Celene's talents. Considering her plan to gain Ferelden bore no fruit, and Celene herself being past the common age of childbearing, her diplomatic talents and skill at the Game leave much to be desired (after all, you need Josephine to enter into peace with Ferelden, as you do with Gaspard). Gaspard's talent is in the military, but he learns diplomacy and does a decent job of it. Celene, by contrast, is only at best an amateur in both areas. 

 

My opinion of Celene isn't high enough to compel me to rush to her defense, but my opinion of Weekes' characterization is high enough to point out that he crafted two immensely different characters, both deeply flawed and different from one another. Gaspard was written as a man with a strong personal sense of honor and military vision, while Celene was explained as a woman of immense political cunning and ruthless pragmatism. 

 

Call Celene an amateur politician, sure. Most of her hatedom calls her that and worse, and it's no worry of mine because I couldn't care less for her if I tried. But it's not what Weekes wrote. He wrote a woman who dominated the Orlesian game from her teenage years, but was not a military minded person. Then he pitted her against the best military mind of Orlais. They are meant to contrast each other in style, not in substance. 

 

I don't feel any warmth or empathy for either of them. I find them both reasonably interesting as characters and wholly unsympathetic as people. But it's always struck me as silly to claim one of them is objectively better than the other because they're written as two sides of the same coin. 

 

 

That said, I do understand why they've both accrued avid fans, and I can respect those reasons, but I will never really understand the vitriol each side hurls at the other. As though one of these options is "right." It's a matter of preference, nothing more. 

[Addai]

The same is true of Celene's talents. Considering her plan to gain Ferelden bore no fruit, and Celene herself being past the common age of childbearing, her diplomatic talents and skill at the Game leave much to be desired (after all, you need Josephine to enter into peace with Ferelden, as you do with Gaspard). Gaspard's talent is in the military, but he learns diplomacy and does a decent job of it. Celene, by contrast, is only at best an amateur in both areas.

I have to agree with Lady Artifice here, and also about the fact that both are odious people and we're really comparing rotten apple to rotten apple. It's a fair criticism that Celene has let her country slide towards ruin by DAI game time, just as that was a fair criticism of Anora in Origins. However it's simply untrue to call her amateurish. She wouldn't have gotten where she is and stayed there this long if she were that.

[Xilizhra]

This is a medieval setting. The quality of one's birth is among the most important things about them. That's the whole reason a nobility is able to exist. Where they are born to is probably the most important part of their identity, especially in a land as decadent as Orlais.

To be robbed of one's birthright is to be robbed of one's identity, in a sense. It is as much a matter of honor as it is a matter of power.

I'm sure Gaspard did desire power to some degree (as does basically every person involved in the Game) but to call him power hungry is a bit of a stretch.

Again, I disagree. When you go as far as starting a war for something you think you're entitled to because of how you were born, that's power-hungry; that's the essence of every succession crisis ever. And, again, the position isn't given solely through primogeniture anyway.

 

And since Celene is indeed past the age where one can reasonably expect to bear healthy children, that's one more reason why I'm not going to claim she should get married.

[Lady Artifice]

Again, I disagree. When you go as far as starting a war for something you think you're entitled to because of how you were born, that's power-hungry; that's the essence of every succession crisis ever. And, again, the position isn't given solely through primogeniture anyway.

 

And since Celene is indeed past the age where one can reasonably expect to bear healthy children, that's one more reason why I'm not going to claim she should get married.

 

How old is Gaspard at the beginning of the novel? Late thirties? Early forties? 

 

There's a reason he waited this long, and I don't think it's because he couldn't find an opportunity earlier. He sees Celene championing diplomacy, the arts, the rights of elves to study at the university, pursuing frilly refinements while she "should" be strengthening the military and expanding the Empire, and making sure Nevarra and Tevinter don't get any ideas. They're on the brink of chaos, and he can't see her doing anything about it. He sees her gilding a flower that's about to be trampled. 

 

He doesn't want the crown for his own sake, he wants it because--like her--he thinks his way is the only way to save Orlais. They both think they alone can decide the right course. So I'll criticize his timing and his methods right there with you, but not his motives. 

[Catche Jagger]

Again, I disagree. When you go as far as starting a war for something you think you're entitled to because of how you were born, that's power-hungry; that's the essence of every succession crisis ever. And, again, the position isn't given solely through primogeniture anyway.

And since Celene is indeed past the age where one can reasonably expect to bear healthy children, that's one more reason why I'm not going to claim she should get married.

The reason why referring to Gaspard as power-hungry is erroneous is that it assumes that his main motivation for starting the civil war was greed. It was not. Gaspard is primarily motivated by pride.

Look at it from his perspective. He is a man who was cheated of a throne that he feels was rightfully his through skill in the Game, a system which he despises and feels is detrimental to Orlais as a whole. Then, the woman who took what was rightly his moves Orlais away from its traditional role as a military power, does not produce an heir, and despite being a reformer, does nothing to end the ridiculous practices of the Game.

From Gaspard's perspective, Celene does not deserve to be empress, and he of course does deserve it.

Also, it's not the essence of every succession crisis ever. Sometimes, people earnestly believe that they would be much better suited to rule.

Gaspard simply thinks he deserves to be ruler. It has nothing (or at least very little) to do with desire to amass power. Pride is a flaw, just as greed is, and disliking Gaspard because you feel he is too prideful is a legitimate (though Celene also has pride issues and Briala too, though to a lesser extent to the other two). However, accusing him of being power hungry is reaching to find reasons to dislike him.

-------

Celene not getting married is simply a stupid political move. She appears to not even care about her lack of an heir, which is an image her opponents can use against her. It is especially detrimental to her as a character because she is supposed to be an expert political manipulator. Her inability to manage this aspect of her image (making her appear aloof to the future of her country) shows a good deal of incompetence on her part.

[The Baconer]

How old is Gaspard at the beginning of the novel? Late thirties? Early forties?

 

66 years old.

[Steelcan]

 

She's not a usurper; she had the support of the Council of Heralds. The imperial throne isn't guaranteed solely by primogeniture.

 

 

I'm looking at it from the point of view of my elf Inquisitor, for whom bloodline is largely unimportant disregarding racial issues, and my qunari Inquisitor, for whom bloodline is utterly meaningless. Both have ample in-universe reason to consider blood politics idiotic.

She was a usurper who got a blessing from them, by all rights it should have gone to him

 

>elf

>blood doesn't matter

>top kek

[Lady Artifice]

66 years old.

Thank you, Baconer. You're like a living lore guide. Lol.

Dayum, he looks good for his age.

[Steelcan]

Thank you, Baconer. You're like a living lore guide. Lol.

Dayum, he looks good for his age.

if I didn't know his lore age I'd have had him pegged for 40ish

 

instead I am forced to assume he just beats up the Grim Reaper every once in a while