943 réponses à ce sujet

[The Baconer]

Mmm, take caution with the number. It's what is listed on the wiki and on reddit, but there are no citations. I'm guessing that the source, if any, would come from Masked Empire, but I don't really feel like digging through it at the moment.

[Master Warder Z_]

if I didn't know his lore age I'd have had him pegged for 40ish

instead I am forced to assume he just beats up the Grim Reaper every once in a while

Remember.

He's a warrior first and foremost and anything past that second.

He's kept himself strong.

[Lady Artifice]

if I didn't know his lore age I'd have had him pegged for 40ish

instead I am forced to assume he just beats up the Grim Reaper every once in a while

I might work that into the next list.

[Uccio]

If the guy is as old as that one would think he doesn´t have that many years to go. Meaning Orlais will have another civil war in a decade or so.

[Master Warder Z_]

Bah.

People live onto their 90s in DA without magic.

Well beyond it with magic, Markus is a fossil.

[Steelcan]

Bah.
People live onto their 90s in DA without magic.
Well beyond it with magic, Markus is a fossil.

. Yeah, normal life spans are pretty much right out, and the Emperor of Orlais would certainly be receiving the best care possible in White Thedas.

[Xilizhra]

How old is Gaspard at the beginning of the novel? Late thirties? Early forties? 

 

There's a reason he waited this long, and I don't think it's because he couldn't find an opportunity earlier. He sees Celene championing diplomacy, the arts, the rights of elves to study at the university, pursuing frilly refinements while she "should" be strengthening the military and expanding the Empire, and making sure Nevarra and Tevinter don't get any ideas. They're on the brink of chaos, and he can't see her doing anything about it. He sees her gilding a flower that's about to be trampled. 

 

He doesn't want the crown for his own sake, he wants it because--like her--he thinks his way is the only way to save Orlais. They both think they alone can decide the right course. So I'll criticize his timing and his methods right there with you, but not his motives. 

I'll criticize his timing, his methods, his ideology, and his motives. Being an ideological warmonger/expansion hog is barely better than being a selfish grabber of power, assuming he's not just both (which I suspect).

 

 

Celene not getting married is simply a stupid political move. She appears to not even care about her lack of an heir, which is an image her opponents can use against her. It is especially detrimental to her as a character because she is supposed to be an expert political manipulator. Her inability to manage this aspect of her image (making her appear aloof to the future of her country) shows a good deal of incompetence on her part.

She should find an heir, it's true, but due to that whole "not determined solely through primogeniture" thing, it should hardly be impossible to pick someone when it becomes necessary. I think she's more likely to have waited because she didn't want to create more power struggles.

[Catche Jagger]

I'll criticize his timing, his methods, his ideology, and his motives. Being an ideological warmonger/expansion hog is barely better than being a selfish grabber of power, assuming he's not just both (which I suspect).

You are entitled to your opinion, but simply saying you don't like Gaspard and then throwing around a bunch of assertions with little or no information to back it up makes it very unlikely that people will see your side of an argument.

She should find an heir, it's true, but due to that whole "not determined solely through primogeniture" thing, it should hardly be impossible to pick someone when it becomes necessary. I think she's more likely to have waited because she didn't want to create more power struggles.

But when tensions rose she did nothing to rectify this. Gaspard can act without addressing these issues because most of his power comes from military force. Celene, on the other hand, relies on diplomacy and the support of others and doing so plays to her strengths. However, she leaves herself open to an attack of words if she lacks an heir, which is an attack she should be impervious to.

[Xilizhra]

You are entitled to your opinion, but simply saying you don't like Gaspard and then throwing around a bunch of assertions with little or no information to back it up makes it very unlikely that people will see your side of an argument.

Basically, I think that Gaspard is, like Corypheus, a throwback who wants to plunge Thedas into bloodshed, or at least the threat thereof. Such would be the inevitable consequence of more imperial expansion, and him using that as a justification doesn't really help my opinion of him at all.

 

 

But when tensions rose she did nothing to rectify this. Gaspard can act without addressing these issues because most of his power comes from military force. Celene, on the other hand, relies on diplomacy and the support of others and doing so plays to her strengths. However, she leaves herself open to an attack of words if she lacks an heir, which is an attack she should be impervious to.

It might be a strategic misstep, but it's certainly not one I'm going to refuse to support her over. I mean, it's Briala whom I really support; I don't even actually like Celene. But I think that Briala's reforms can be implemented better and with less strife if she does so alongside Celene.

[Catche Jagger]

Basically, I think that Gaspard is, like Corypheus, a throwback who wants to plunge Thedas into bloodshed, or at least the threat thereof. Such would be the inevitable consequence of more imperial expansion, and him using that as a justification doesn't really help my opinion of him at all.

Well, I wouldn't say he's as bad as Corepheus. That's pushing it a bit far haha. Expansionism might not be the best thing for neighboring countries, but it definately could benefit Orlais. But I digress, the benefits and follies of expansionism in relation to the countries embracing such practices is a subject of great debate in general, so getting into it here would most likely lead nowhere fast.

It might be a strategic misstep, but it's certainly not one I'm going to refuse to support her over. I mean, it's Briala whom I really support; I don't even actually like Celene. But I think that Briala's reforms can be implemented better and with less strife if she does so alongside Celene.

Well at least we can agree on not liking Celene and that Briala is best for Orlais on the whole. Briala ruling through Gaspard would probably be my second favorite result for Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts after, of course, beating all of them and forcing them to work for you.

[Master Warder Z_]

Gaspard

[Boost32]

Well at least we can agree on not liking Celene and that Briala is best for Orlais on the whole. Briala ruling through Gaspard would probably be my second favorite result for Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts after, of course, beating all of them and forcing them to work for you.

How is Briala the best for Orlais? She has no plans to strengthen Orlais, the only thing she cares are the elves, who are useless for Orlais, economically (they dont produce food and they arent manufacturer) or military (her forces counts on a few elves who the best weapon is the Eluvian network), how making things better for them will improve Orlais?

[HereticDante]

Celene overthrew her uncle, Emperor Florian, because "Florian" was failing. As the 'Mad Emperor' Reville demonstrated, an incompetent ruler is good for nobody. The problem being, despite characterizing Gaspard as a mindless unsubtle brute, he outplays Celene at the game at every turn. He turns Celene's "master stroke" with Arl Teagan against her and makes off with sevearl of Celene's most powerful allies, he deduces Celene's personal "entanglement" with Briala and uses it to further turn public opinion against Celene and it was only by dumb luck that Celene avoided getting captured and beaten at Halamshiral long before the Inquisition even formed. Gaspard unliek Celene who may turn on the Inquisition, still supports the Inquisition no matter what, because he gave his word and for all his warmongering attitude, is still happy to accept peace with Ferelden when the opportunity presents itself rather than provoke another war.

 

Then of course there are the consistent mistakes Celene herself makes, refusing Gaspard's offer of marriage (which other connotations aside, would certainly have created a political union bringing Orlais together and allowed them to present a united front against Corpyheus), letting Gaspard leave after trying to kill her (thinking this would somehow prevent a war which was already inevitable), walking headfirst into Gaspard's obvious trap at Halamshiral, letting Gaspard sneak troops into the Winter Palace so she could use this to embarass him to the court (forgetting this would still leave a bunch of chevaliers loyal to gaspard in the same room as her) and failing to notice all the Fereldan mercenaries Gaspard snuck in also. Celene might have been a good player at the game once but she's really on one hell of a protacted losing streak by this point. Celene is failing. Not to mention most of Celene's "compassionate" activities actually seem to be an attempt to extend Orlais' reach through soft power which is just as insidious, (such as marrying cailan in order to reclaim Ferelden).

 

I personally sided with Briala, because I couldn't justify why an Elven inquisitor would side with Gaspard over Briala and because I knew going in htere, whom the Inquisitor would naturally choose to support. But Gaspard is a great character and I think, the words of Ser Michel, will be a fine Emperor, in his own way, either with Briala or by himself.

[Catche Jagger]

How is Briala the best for Orlais? She has no plans to strengthen Orlais, the only thing she cares are the elves, who are useless for Orlais, economically (they dont produce food and they arent manufacturer) or military (her forces counts on a few elves who the best weapon is the Eluvian network), how making things better for them will improve Orlais?

Because... racism is bad? I thought that was a universally understood concept? The city elves don't produce anything don't produce anything or have many useful skills because they have no opportunities to learn or do anything useful. They are kept in ghettos where they cannot contribute much to society.

Also, giving the elves more rights in Orlais would presumably put more workers into various fields where elves were not formerly permitted.

[Master Warder Z_]

Because... racism is bad?

God help us all.

Yes, judgement based not on merit is unfair.

That said, it isn't to me nor will it ever be enough motivation to unbalance the societal order of a Empire when it needs it most.

Racism is bad.

Anarchy is worse.

[Catche Jagger]

God help us all.

Yes, judgement based not on merit is unfair.

That said, it isn't to me nor will it ever be enough motivation to unbalance the societal order of a Empire when it needs it most.

Racism is bad.

Anarchy is worse.

But the existence of Alienages benefits no one. The elves do nothing to benefit Orlesian society and the humans continuously abuse them.

I know you can't change the way things are just like that, but change is necessary.

Gaspard is my favorite character out of the the three options, Briala has the policies I prefer, and Celene's just kinda meh in my book. However, I wouldn't trust any of them to run anything for me.

[Master Warder Z_]

But the existence of Alienages benefits no one. The elves do nothing to benefit Orlesian society and the humans continuously abuse them.

Not entirely true.

You do have taxable goods coming in and out, property, coin flows regardless of location.

[Boost32]

Because... racism is bad? I thought that was a universally understood concept? The city elves don't produce anything don't produce anything or have many useful skills because they have no opportunities to learn or do anything useful. They are kept in ghettos where they cannot contribute much to society.
Also, giving the elves more rights in Orlais would presumably put more workers into various fields where elves were not formerly permitted.

I understand Briala is the best for elves, but what she does for Orlais? She cares only about elves. Gaspard wants to bring back the expansionism and name Orlais richer and stronger, Celene wants a economic stable Orlais and incentivate arts, culture and education, but Briala does nothing for Orlais.

[Xilizhra]

I understand Briala is the best for elves, but what she does for Orlais? She cares only about elves. Gaspard wants to bring back the expansionism and name Orlais richer and stronger, Celene wants a economic stable Orlais and incentivate arts, culture and education, but Briala does nothing for Orlais.

Elves are part of Orlais. People don't exist for the benefit of nations, nations exist for the benefit of people. Those people who forget that are, to one degree or another, tyrants.

[Master Warder Z_]

Said the person content to be a dictator.

[Xilizhra]

Said the person content to be a dictator.

A position I was basically appointed to with no right of refusal. The important thing is that I have not forgotten that the Inquisition exists for the benefit of the people.

[Jaison1986]

I understand Briala is the best for elves, but what she does for Orlais? She cares only about elves. Gaspard wants to bring back the expansionism and name Orlais richer and stronger, Celene wants a economic stable Orlais and incentivate arts, culture and education, but Briala does nothing for Orlais.

 

People need to take into consideration that supporting Briala would very likely lead to civil war between the elves and the nobles. Her changes are abrupt and drastic, and the humans don't take kindly to that at all. If people really want things to get better with the elves in a positive way, I would suggest reuniting Celene and Briala, though, I would never do that myself, considering the basis of their relationship utterly disgusts me.

[Boost32]

Elves are part of Orlais. People don't exist for the benefit of nations, nations exist for the benefit of people. Those people who forget that are, to one degree or another, tyrants.

Both Gaspard and Celene can bring prosperity for all Orlais not only elves, but Briala does not think about anyone who arent elves, this is what um talking. How her changes will improve the lives of the nobility, merchants, artsans, manufacturers, peasants, etc who arent elves?

[Xilizhra]

Both Gaspard and Celene can bring prosperity for all Orlais not only elves, but Briala does not think about anyone who arent elves, this is what um talking. How her changes will improve the lives of the nobility, merchants, artsans, manufacturers, peasants, etc who arent elves?

Gaspard does it by taking from people in other countries, so he doesn't count. Celene doesn't appear to be economically liberating the peasantry all that much anyway, and most of the others don't really need the economic boost as much as either the human peasantry or the elves.

[Steelcan]

Gaspard does it by taking from people in other countries, so he doesn't count. Celene doesn't appear to be economically liberating the peasantry all that much anyway, and most of the others don't really need the economic boost as much as either the human peasantry or the elves.

....except he doesn't always invade Ferelden...  If you do the diplomatic mission, the Orlesian army moves to the Tevinter border to fortify, it doesn't come across as an invasion of Tevinter or Nevarra