943 réponses à ce sujet

[ladyofpayne]

 

 

He killed an ally just because the guy did not follow his moral standards. 

Because Remache backstabbed him. If soldier doesn't follow general's orders he is traitor and should be executed.

[WazzuMan]

I would have killed Remache, too. That man was a liability. It's funny, Gaspard has a greater sense of honour than Celene but if you look at their allies it was a different story. Gaspard's allies betrayed his beliefs (and ended up dead for it) whereas Celene kind of drove hers away herself.

[Mimilette]

I disliked Remache greatly but saying he was a liability seems an exaggeration. He was a powerful duke, if I remember correctly, and an extremely powerful ally. I mean this is the man Celene was pretending to consider marrying at some point, right? And if I'm not mistaken, he did not attack Gaspard, did he? I thought he was just trying to get rid of Celene by means that Gaspard deemed unworthy. I might need to reread the book, the details are starting to get fuzzy.

 

Considering Gaspard had no problem having the mages help him against Michel is pretty telling of how much his so-called honor is worth. Winning a duel thanks to cheating and saying afterwards "But I did not know about it" is a very poor excuse if you're going to act like you won it anyway.

 

I'm not saying Celene is superior morally, I'm just saying as an ally, he's as much unreliable as she is because they're both out for themselves, the only difference being that one sugarcoat it by talking about honor while the other sugarcoat it by talking about greater good or something.

[WarriorOfLight999]

@ Breadmax: Ramza Beoulve managed to save the world as a heretic. I'd say he accomplished a great deal. Whether or not Ivalice chooses to acknowledge that is their choice.

 

@ OP: I care little for either Celene or Gaspard. I will save innocents, but the imperial might of Orlais will crumble, along with the power base of the Chantry. Both will know humility in the end.

[ladyofpayne]

I would have killed Remache, too. That man was a liability. It's funny, Gaspard has a greater sense of honour than Celene but if you look at their allies it was a different story. Gaspard's allies betrayed his beliefs (and ended up dead for it) whereas Celene kind of drove hers away herself.

Only one ally betrayed Gaspard. Celene's llost: her general, her spy master and her champion. She has lost the most important people for her.

[ladyofpayne]

 

 

how much his so-called honor is worth. 

Honor doesn't preclude tactic and glory doesn't won through the foolishness.

[Lumix19]

Only one ally betrayed Gaspard. Celene's llost: her general, her spy master and her champion. She has lost the most important people for her.

The issue is is that I would hardly called Remanche's actions "betrayal", he was trying to help Gaspard and he was killed for not fitting Gaspard's ideals of honour. Admirable as that is I doubt many of the other nobles would agree with such actions and support him, it's a Chevalier move, not a political one.

What general are you referring to there?

Honor doesn't preclude tactic and glory doesn't won through the foolishness.

As above, Gaspard let his honour get in the way of tactics.

[WazzuMan]

I said Gaspard's allies, Remache and the mage (whose name escapes me) betrayed his beliefs, not Gaspard himself. Remache broke an honourable truce and attacked an ally in the heat of battle against a very dangerous and powerful foe, and he did because of Celene threatened his province (and why wouldn't she?), not for Gaspard. The mages interfered in the duel without Gaspard's knowledge and that goes against even the Chevalier's twisted and selective sense of honour. Had Gaspard realised, he might have halted the duel first to run down the mage himself.

[ladyofpayne]

 

 

What general are you referring to there?

Gaspard of course. He rebelled against her but Celena doesn't have another general.

[Xilizhra]

Not sure why the Inquisition should care anyway. Nothing invested in Ferelden enough to want to weaken Orlais. 

There's no reason to want to strengthen Orlais beyond what's necessary to add soldiers for the Inquisition, either.

[berrieh]

First - Gaspard killed Remache not just because he did not follow Gaspard's code but because he acted against Gaspard's express wishes. The Duke was very clear on his code and his wishes in the situation, and he followed the code he'd always espoused. Gaspard even acknowledged to Remache earlier that there was honor outside of the Chevaliers and admitted that other codes in the world might be admirable. But he was always clear on what code was his to follow. 

 

Second - His reasoning on the duel wasn't that he was okay with the mage doing what she did (in fact, he approves that they attacked her for it) but rather that his honor was not besmirched and he had not forfeit because he had not ordered it and had no knowledge of it. This, I believe. It wouldn't have mattered because he would have lost anyway if not for Briala. And neither party won anyway. He didn't strike her Champion down in the end, so it's not so much a problem. 

 

I kind of hate both Gaspard and Celene, but I do think Gaspard has more honor. As someone who was set up as the antagonist, I was surprised how much I admired him by the end of the book. I am still leaning towards Celene to lead Orlais but that's more because my tastes lean towards the arts, the academies, etc, than war. Honestly, I think the best option would have been the marriage of their two skills. But they're both too stubborn to make that work - even though Gaspard proposed, it seems clear he would be constantly vying for additional power. 

[Xilizhra]

First - Gaspard killed Remache not just because he did not follow Gaspard's code but because he acted against Gaspard's express wishes. The Duke was very clear on his code and his wishes in the situation, and he followed the code he'd always espoused. Gaspard even acknowledged to Remache earlier that there was honor outside of the Chevaliers and admitted that other codes in the world might be admirable. But he was always clear on what code was his to follow. 

 

Second - His reasoning on the duel wasn't that he was okay with the mage doing what she did (in fact, he approves that they attacked her for it) but rather that his honor was not besmirched and he had not forfeit because he had not ordered it and had no knowledge of it. This, I believe. It wouldn't have mattered because he would have lost anyway if not for Briala. And neither party won anyway. He didn't strike her Champion down in the end, so it's not so much a problem. 

 

I kind of hate both Gaspard and Celene, but I do think Gaspard has more honor. As someone who was set up as the antagonist, I was surprised how much I admired him by the end of the book. I am still leaning towards Celene to lead Orlais but that's more because my tastes lean towards the arts, the academies, etc, than war. Honestly, I think the best option would have been the marriage of their two skills. But they're both too stubborn to make that work - even though Gaspard proposed, it seems clear he would be constantly vying for additional power. 

I'd also rather honor Celene's orientation.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Gaspard for Emperor. Unlike most people on this forum, I don't really care what he does to the dog lord country. As long as he stays true to this word and helps me close the breach, I will support him.

[berrieh]

I'd also rather honor Celene's orientation.

 

I didn't suggest they be a true romance; an Empress marrying and doing her duty once or twice to produce an heir (an actual concern in Orlais) doesn't suggest she has to change her orientation. 

 

I really don't get why she couldn't keep seeing Briala if she got married for political reasons. That was one of the things I didn't understand throughout the whole book. I suppose it would be used against her, like it was with the play. But if she found a real partner - I don't mean romantically, I mean a partner in ruling who also respected her enough and who she respected enough to not Game each other - I don't see why they both can't see who they like on the side. Many in Thedas, particularly Orlais, do. 

 

If Gaspard and Celene could both be forced to trust each other and be trustworthy to each other (ironically, simply forcing Gaspard into a vow of such would probably work on his end, but Celene has no kind of adherence to code), I think they could have had such an arrangement. They didn't care about the same aspects of ruling anyway and could've compromised or reconciled views as appropriate. I suppose few people are that logical, though. 

 

I don't see Celene's marriage (if she ever were to marry) as a romantic matter. That's not the kind of choice an Empress gets to make. 

[ladyofpayne]

I wonder if Gaspard will be Emperor he will take new wife? I think he will.

[The Ascendant]

An easy way to secure support is a political marriage. I beleived Duke Remach gave his daughter to Gaspard in return for his support. Men have an easier time making families than women. That's one of my major problems with the False Empress. She has no plan B. Her plan to marry Calian and bind the two nations was cunning, but she did nothing in the next ten years. She may have 'loved' Briala, but Monarchs don't get to enjoy the luxuries that normal people do. If she suddenly died, there would be chaos and Gaspard would likely win. She has no heirs, protegees and her closest relation is Gaspard. He's simply speeding up the process.

[Master Warder Z_]

I'd also rather honor Celene's orientation.

 

Not an important decision to me to be honest.

 

She can suck it up and accept the duty that comes with office like a good leader.

 

Or she can be replaced, either way works for me.

[Pierce Miller]

I do hope we get a chance to face Gaspard in battle would be interesting to see if he's as strong as he claims.

[The Baconer]

I do hope we get a chance to face Gaspard in battle would be interesting to see if he's as strong as he claims.

 

Michel rendered him lame. Don't count on being able to fight him in his prime.

[Pierce Miller]

Michel rendered him lame. Don't count on being able to fight him in his prime.

Oh well I'll settle for fighting his forces instead.

[Master Warder Z_]

Michel rendered him lame. Don't count on being able to fight him in his prime.

 

Who knows, Magical healing can do amazing things.

 

Couple of weeks under a mage or two and he might be back to his old self again.

[The Baconer]

Who knows, Magical healing can do amazing things.

 

Couple of weeks under a mage or two and he might be back to his old self again.

 

We can only hope.

[Pierce Miller]

I do hope we have the option to side with one or the other, Wonder what benefits the Inquisition would receive.

[DarthLaxian]

This is Medieval. There is no Genevieve's convention, there is no civilians. War is Hell, all wariors- cold blooded killers. And Gaspard isn't the worst person if you will judge by HIS TIME not ours 21 age.

 

Well, I have a modern outlook on things (and I be damned if I let some medieval person (I don't even like!) compromise what I learned to be right (yes: I do question our outlook sometimes as well, like I think it should be ok to torture convicted terrorists for answers, but I would not treat regular enemy combatants badly (terrorists are another matter because there has not been a declaration of war and because they often go after non-military targets and do things like suicide-bombing!)) and so my ingame characters do as well (hell, many people from that time period didn't like what was happening around them (like punishing people without hearing witnesses and determining guilt or innocence and punishing people by cutting of hands, arms, legs etc.) - that's why we have our new rules now, because people were sickened by what happened and changed it!!!

 

greetings LAX

[Master Warder Z_]

Actually people still have arms and hands removed for crimes, people are still hung, electrocuted, shot, and all these other things some folks would label "sickening" heck one of our biggest allies in the middle east still has stoning as a form of execution.