248 réponses à ce sujet

[Gothfather]

My niece loves the Sims, and could spend hours looking at fashion mods. Guess it is a good game, though it is not for me. I care less about items and crafting them, than actually creating the characters themselves for RPG's.

We all get the same Spell & Talent templates depending on Class, and am doubtful if there will be variations of the same ability (eg; Evasion +3 DEX, STR or other attribute). And fewer options yields lesser possible outcomes; expect more of the same builds, and not greater variations.

And if one is tired or bored, perhaps varying the routine can help; remarkably refreshing for many.

 

You don't get to choose which stats you boost when an ability gives you a stat boost HOWever you only get to use 8 active abilities, this means PART of a strategy with assigning abilities is what stats i increase and what passivies i get. This extends the strategies of class ability builds beyond which 8 actives you have. This add a layer of depth to character progression. The fact that abilities can be reset gives you greater choice with a single character becaues you can say how does this build with this set of equipment work? What if I tweak this area here? You can't do that with the older games without starting from scratch.

 

The fact that you don't care much about crafting does not in any way negate that you have control over your attribure points via crafting. That is a seperate issue. Its perfectly valid to not like crafting. However it is utterly false to say that because you don't pick attribute points at lvl up you have less choice in assigning attribute points. You get more choice but instead of there being only one main way to increase attribut points aka via lvl up that was fixed once the choice is made you get 3 ways to assign attribute points and 2 of those allow you to change your ability points on a whim or to test or to meet different challenges within the game thus increasing you encounter strategies.

 

1) Equipment (Changeable)

2) Abilities some of the abilities give non "classic" stat bonuses like Con for mages (changeable)

3) Lvl up you your stat increase every lvl up (Fixed)

 

This is a hell of a lot more versitile than any previous game.

 

I'll agree that people could prefer the old method but it is a 100% falsehood to say we now have less choice in our attributes. They are simply tied to other parts of character progression than just character lvl up. Equipment has been a part of RPG character progression since always so its not a huge leap to tie attributes to it and you get a secondary method of attribute building via ability speccing and the third is tied to lvl up but in this third method your bonuses are fixed.

[LordParbr]

You're still going to have to worry about wft goes where when you play the game... But instead of having to click a + button during level up, you'll have to be meticulous in your allocation of stats when you craft your gear, and select what to wear.

How dare they make the attribute system more complex!?
 

 

As much as it's claimed that "crafting is optional", it's clearly not at this point.  If you're required to allocate stats to armor in order to progress in combat(and it certainly looks like you will, if you want to have a modicum of success after the first few hours), you're going to be required to craft...

Okay, so which developer, exactly, said that you won't find equipment sets in the world with attribute bonuses? Because that's the only way that this makes the crafting system mandatory.
 

 

The pic of cookies is somewhat appropriate, because we now have the same characters baked for everyone. Sure; some might add more chips along the way, but we all have the same base recipe.

We can customize gear, choose varied looks, and choose from Spells and Talents (though these are all the same base choices for everyone, too). And besides the loss of Player's choosing stats, they no longer need to worry about selecting the incorrect weapons, have fewer quickslots, etc.

DAI looks to be a great game; simply wonder how much better it might have been if the Players were allowed to select their own choices. Even I tire of the same chocolate-chip cookies; occasionally wish to try other recipes.

None of this actually makes sense as criticism. Here, I'll just sum it up for you.

"We can customize gear, choose varied looks, and choose from Spells and Talents."

"simply wonder how much better it might have been if the Players were allowed to select their own choices."

 

Those 2 statements are incompatible. It can't be that the first statement is sarcastic, because it's true. If the second is sarcastic, then I apologize, but it really just seems to me that you weren't actually paying attention to what you were saying.
 

 

Yawn players have more control over their attributes then they did in past DA games  it is simply not done during CC or lvl up. You get stat bonuses from skills and equipment which you control and when you lvl your attributes increase but these increases are set.

 

What you get is a system that requires a little more effort by the player but allows the player to create multiple builds of the character by respecing your abilities and putting on different armour. You get MORE versatillity in the current system. It requires a little more effort in that you have to create armour BUT you can experiment with outside the box builds for classes and if you find that they don't work you can simply change your abilities and change your equipment. You don't have to start a new game.

Right on the money
 

 

My niece loves the Sims, and could spend hours looking at fashion mods. Guess it is a good game, though it is not for me. I care less about items and crafting them, than actually creating the characters themselves for RPG's.

We all get the same Spell & Talent templates depending on Class, and am doubtful if there will be variations of the same ability (eg; Evasion +3 DEX, STR or other attribute). And fewer options yields lesser possible outcomes; expect more of the same builds, and not greater variations.

And if one is tired or bored, perhaps varying the routine can help; remarkably refreshing for many.

Your first statement is just irrelevent. Character creation isn't even mostly about assigning attribute points. Hell, in DnD, the pregenitor of Dragon Age, you don't. You roll your character's attribute points, randomly. Yes, you're sometimes allowed to adjust them, but a lot of DMs would force you to use what you rolled, and that's all the attribute points you ever get. You don't get anymore on level up. Ever.

There don't have to be variations on the same ability, but I would be completely shocked if the mage, rogue, and warrior didn't each get a few passives which increases magic, dex, and strength, respectively. Also, what do you mean "fewer options?" Have you seen the number of trees for each class? For the mage, they split off each element, even.

Seriously, you lot are attacking anyone who even hints at not caring much like a pack of jackals. It really isn't that important. Attribute allocation is not the be all, end all of character creation.

[Elhanan]

You don't get to choose which stats you boost when an ability gives you a stat boost HOWever you only get to use 8 active abilities, this means PART of a strategy with assigning abilities is what stats i increase and what passivies i get. This extends the strategies of class ability builds beyond which 8 actives you have. This add a layer of depth to character progression. The fact that abilities can be reset gives you greater choice with a single character becaues you can say how does this build with this set of equipment work? What if I tweak this area here? You can't do that with the older games without starting from scratch.
 
The fact that you don't care much about crafting does not in any way negate that you have control over your attribure points via crafting. That is a seperate issue. Its perfectly valid to not like crafting. However it is utterly false to say that because you don't pick attribute points at lvl up you have less choice in assigning attribute points. You get more choice but instead of there being only one main way to increase attribut points aka via lvl up that was fixed once the choice is made you get 3 ways to assign attribute points and 2 of those allow you to change your ability points on a whim or to test or to meet different challenges within the game thus increasing you encounter strategies.
 
1) Equipment (Changeable)
2) Abilities some of the abilities give non "classic" stat bonuses like Con for mages (changeable)
3) Lvl up you your stat increase every lvl up (Fixed)
 
This is a hell of a lot more versitile than any previous game.
 
I'll agree that people could prefer the old method but it is a 100% falsehood to say we now have less choice in our attributes. They are simply tied to other parts of character progression than just character lvl up. Equipment has been a part of RPG character progression since always so its not a huge leap to tie attributes to it and you get a secondary method of attribute building via ability speccing and the third is tied to lvl up but in this third method your bonuses are fixed.

Actually, having MORE quickslots on the bar as in the previous games allows the Players a wider range of choices, as they may select as they have need; not vacate the area, reset, or re-load to try other selections. Nothing is added by reducing the number of possibilities; same choices are available overall, but fewer for each encounter.

Item customization is greater; agreed, but gear does not make a character. The same gear may have been in a chest, or on a bandit a moment ago; does not make either of them the Inquisitor. Items can be lost; actual Attributes are a bit harder to remove.

* The previous games also had Equipment (changeable); just not as customized.
* Attributes gained via abilities will be limited to the templates allowed per Class; older system allowed for all Attributes to be altered.
* Base designs used to be customized; now fixed.

Fewer options does not yield greater choice.

[PhroXenGold]

 

 

Fewer options does not yield greater choice.

 

Fewer options might not yield greater choice in principle but it might well do in practice. The more options you have, the greater the chance of there being a clear cut right answer. And once there's a clear cut answer, there's no longer any real choice, you take that one. By reducing the amount of options, you can reduce the chance of one being obviously better than the rest, thereby creating a genuine choice where before there was a no-brainer.

[Elhanan]

.... 
Your first statement is just irrelevent. Character creation isn't even mostly about assigning attribute points. Hell, in DnD, the pregenitor of Dragon Age, you don't. You roll your character's attribute points, randomly. Yes, you're sometimes allowed to adjust them, but a lot of DMs would force you to use what you rolled, and that's all the attribute points you ever get. You don't get anymore on level up. Ever.

There don't have to be variations on the same ability, but I would be completely shocked if the mage, rogue, and warrior didn't each get a few passives which increases magic, dex, and strength, respectively. Also, what do you mean "fewer options?" Have you seen the number of trees for each class? For the mage, they split off each element, even.

Seriously, you lot are attacking anyone who even hints at not caring much like a pack of jackals. It really isn't that important. Attribute allocation is not the be all, end all of character creation.

Comparing D&D to DA is irrelevant, as is Runequest, Tunnels & Trolls, Palladium, GURP's, etc; all varied systems. Yet, the DA series already has Attributes, allowed for Players to choose those Attributes, even when playing the same PC (ie; Hawke, Dwarven Noble, etc). Fewer and fixed choices does seem to be the designed way for DA Players to create characters.

Yes; there are more Talents & Spells, and also fewer Specializations and choices of them. But having a tiered template from which to select is still not offering a greater freedom than allowing choices in both (Attributes & Abilities).

And I am not attacking anyone; simply responding to opposing opinions, and attempting to restrain myself from utilizing similar condescension and accusations as some.

[DMaster2]

Attribute points are now received from passives and from gear so there's still a lot of versatility and possibilities.

 

Still less possibilities than manual attribute allocation plus gear and passives. If Bioware is so afraid a couple of beginners mess up the attributes they should've kept the manual option, but with the auto-allocation as default, so everyone would've been happy.

[Elhanan]

Fewer options might not yield greater choice in principle but it might well do in practice. The more options you have, the greater the chance of there being a clear cut right answer. And once there's a clear cut answer, there's no longer any real choice, you take that one. By reducing the amount of options, you can reduce the chance of one being obviously better than the rest, thereby creating a genuine choice where before there was a no-brainer.

Not even in practice. By allowing the longer Quickbar with the full array of selections like in the past games creates greater freedom in selecting those same varied selections. One simply does not have to retreat, re-load, or reset to do them as often.

To use an example: One can make fewer words using eight Scrabble tiles, then they can create by using all of the tiles in the box.

[PhroXenGold]

Not even in practice. By allowing the longer Quickbar with the full array of selections like in the past games creates greater freedom in selecting those same varied selections. One simply does not have to retreat, re-load, or reset to do them as often.

To use an example: One can make fewer words using eight Scrabble tiles, then they can create by using all of the tiles in the box.

 

Sure, you have greater freedom, but in terms of actually making choices, there's none. You use the no-brainer obvious best option. That's not choice. By limiting the number of abilities you have at any one time, it reduces the chances of having such a clear cut best option, thereby puting you in a position of having to chose between multiple non-optimal options.

 

And then of course, there's the fact that more choice is not always a good thing. To take your Scrabble example, it'd be pretty boring if you had all the tiles. By limiting those you have, it makes the game far more interesting to play.

[berrieh]

This statement 

 

Actually, having MORE quickslots on the bar as in the previous games allows the Players a wider range of choices, as they may select as they have need; not vacate the area, reset, or re-load to try other selections. Nothing is added by reducing the number of possibilities; same choices are available overall, but fewer for each encounter.

 

and this statement

 

Yes; there are more Talents & Spells, and also fewer Specializations and choices of them. But having a tiered template from which to select is still not offering a greater freedom than allowing choices in both (Attributes & Abilities).

 

don't make sense to me. There are not fewer choices for each encounter. There are more choices for each encounter because greater number of Talents & Spells, plus ways to customize them with Passives, and fewer number in the available loadout = more choices made and differing combinations mathematically for each encounter. There are more limits to what you can change and maybe where (I'm not sure if you have to go back to camp to change your load-out or not, actually) but that means that you're making more choices. What's really happening here is that encounters are much more likely to be different and faced differently because of these choices. 

 

I'm not saying you have to like it, but "Fewer choices" isn't exactly right. There is more to choose from and an actual limit that provides combinations of choice; thus more choices and combinations. There are perhaps more limits in terms of the system asking you to strategically make your choices at a new point, but that doesn't mean fewer choices per se. It is an overly simplistic view to see it that way.

 

-------------

 

As to attributes, if you look at the actual effect they had mathematically vs. what our choices in gear and passives will have mathematically in DA:I, it's clear our choices have more impact now. I do understand some are apparently very attached to attribute points - the why I cannot fathom - and this is likely a problem for them. I remember a few friends being bummed about the changes in Skyrim, though it's clearly superior to Oblivion, and I know change always sparks some frustration in people. I'm sympathetic to that, but I think anyone who paints it as dumbing down the system (not saying this to anyone in particular) or restricting choice overall hasn't looked at the system as a whole. The system has to work together holistically; this is important. Sometimes limitations must be put in place in some areas to allow for greater customization in others and still retain game balance (which looks to be greater than ever - a massive improvement). 

[Gothfather]

Actually, having MORE quickslots on the bar as in the previous games allows the Players a wider range of choices, as they may select as they have need; not vacate the area, reset, or re-load to try other selections. Nothing is added by reducing the number of possibilities; same choices are available overall, but fewer for each encounter.

Item customization is greater; agreed, but gear does not make a character. The same gear may have been in a chest, or on a bandit a moment ago; does not make either of them the Inquisitor. Items can be lost; actual Attributes are a bit harder to remove.

* The previous games also had Equipment (changeable); just not as customized.
* Attributes gained via abilities will be limited to the templates allowed per Class; older system allowed for all Attributes to be altered.
* Base designs used to be customized; now fixed.

Fewer options does not yield greater choice.

You are conflating issues.

 

There is a NEW level to ability specing now because you have fewer choices. This is seperate from strategies in combat. Its strategies on the build of the character. Before the only strategy of a character build was what does this ability give me in terms of its tactical impact. I only have 8 active ability slots so does this mean you should NEVER use an ability point to buy an other active ability that isn't a prerequisite? Well its one possible strategy on how you spend you ability points but it wouldn't be my strategy. Say I want a boost in willpower I can look at my abilities and if I see an active ability with willpower i am going to buy it becaues it gives my character the stat i want. Do I think you should spend all your ability points solely to get stat bonuses will no reguard to what active or passive abilities are picked? NO! By adding attributes to abilities they added a layer of complexity to the system. because now an ability does two things it gives you a passive bonus or an active ability AND it gives you a bonus to an attribute.

 

Gear doesn't make a character, agreed but neither do attributes. No fraking single aspect of progression in an RPG "makes" the character. Your statement gear doesn't make the character is meaningless because attributes don't make the character, race doesn't make the character, personality doesn't make the character, class doesn't make the character, nor do abilities make the character. No single aspect alone makes the character combined they all make the character. Removing gear progression in an RPG makes for a very bland and boring game because PART of the character's progression is better gear. DA:I simply added another layer to gear progression bonus stats.

 

* The previous games also had Equipment (changeable); just not as customized.

The range of secondary bonuses from gear now has both greater breadth and depth this means MORE choice. Now every peiced of gear gives you attribute points in addition to the things it had before.

 

* Attributes gained via abilities will be limited to the templates allowed per Class; older system allowed for all Attributes to be altered.

Yawn look at the abilities themselves they include the entire spectrum of stats within the available trees for every class. They are not restricted to warriors only get str and con, or dex and cunning for rogues.

 

* Base designs used to be customized; now fixed.

You are right this part has fewer options because its fixed. But they make up for it by giving MORE options in point 1 and point 2 they ALSO made the system changeable. In the old system you couldn't modify your stats at all, once you picked a stat you were stuck with it even if your build was sub optimal to your play style. make a mistake? Tough start over.

 

With the current system you can change your attributes to your encounter strategy. In the old system you couldn't change you attributes to match a specific type of encounter NOW you can. Going against a Dragon? Make sure you take stats that give you defence bonuses against dragon attacks. You can do this by putting on different armour and repicking abilities that give you prefered attributes against dragons or mages or templars. This is all possbile now it wasn't before.

 

You are not getting fewer options for attributes you are getting more you had only ONE way to get attribute points now you have three. That is more options not less. You also couldn't change your attributes at all once fixed, not 2/3 of the way you obtain attributes is changeable that opens up a huge area of choice you NEVER had before.

 

You are being willfully ignorant. You prefer the older system so you refuse to admit this new system gives you more choice because it goes against your narrative. It restricts you one way and gives greater flexability both in how you get attributes but also in how flexible they are in character builds.

 

And just to be clear wilful ignorance =/= ignorant http://rationalwiki....llful_ignorance

[xkg]

and fewer number in the available loadout = more choices made and differing combinations mathematically for each encounter.

 

Sorry but when it comes to mathematics and combinations it's not true. The more elements you can chose from the given set the more combinations you can get.

[LordParbr]

Comparing D&D to DA is irrelevant, as is Runequest, Tunnels & Trolls, Palladium, GURP's, etc; all varied systems. Yet, the DA series already has Attributes, allowed for Players to choose those Attributes, even when playing the same PC (ie; Hawke, Dwarven Noble, etc). Fewer and fixed choices does seem to be the designed way for DA Players to create characters.

Yes; there are more Talents & Spells, and also fewer Specializations and choices of them. But having a tiered template from which to select is still not offering a greater freedom than allowing choices in both (Attributes & Abilities).

And I am not attacking anyone; simply responding to opposing opinions, and attempting to restrain myself from utilizing similar condescension and accusations as some.

wrong. It is entirely apropriate to bring up DnD, because you're arguing that attributes make the character. They don't. They never have. They never will. They are a small part of the character. A small part which is now infinitely versatile.

Also, if you felt that final comment doesn't apply to you, then ignore it. It's a general remark, and clearly not aimed at you directly.

[LordParbr]

On a side note, how, exactly, does our loadout of abilities work now? Do we still buy new abilities at each level up and can access all of them through the menu, or do we only have access to the 8 we assign to our quickbars?

[LordParbr]

Sorry but when it comes to mathematics and combinations it's not true. The more elements you can chose from the given set the more combinations you can get.

That's true, but it would only work in your favor if, in previous games, abilities and item sets applied attribute bonuses.

[azarhal]

On a side note, how, exactly, does our loadout of abilities work now? Do we still buy new abilities at each level up and can access all of them through the menu, or do we only have access to the 8 we assign to our quickbars?

 

You buy talents like in the previous games, but can only use the ones you set on the hotbar while in combat and it has only 8 slots.

[xkg]

wrong. It is entirely apropriate to bring up DnD, because you're arguing that attributes make the character. They don't. They never have. They never will. They are a small part of the character. A small part which is now infinitely versatile.

Also, if you felt that final comment doesn't apply to you, then ignore it. It's a general remark, and clearly not aimed at you directly.

 

In D&D they do. Starting attribute levels are very important in D&D since there is little chance to, for example double your starting warrior's STR (let's say it's 18) through the gear. It's nearly not possible to get another 18 by simply changing your stuff.

 

In DAI a simple sword can more than double your base attributes.

Those 2 systems are not similar in any way. Not even close.

[Morroian]

Fewer options might not yield greater choice in principle but it might well do in practice. The more options you have, the greater the chance of there being a clear cut right answer. And once there's a clear cut answer,

 

But that wasn't the case in DAO or DA2.

[LordParbr]

You buy talents like in the previous games, but can only use the ones you set on the hotbar while in combat and it has only 8 slots.

hmm... Not sure how I feel about that

[AshenEndymion]

How dare they make the attribute system more complex!?

 

The Attribute system is actually less complex.  In DA2 you had the ability to assign attributes via level up, and add to those via equipment.  In DAI, we've lost the former, and still have the latter.  I am less bothered by the fact that I can't assign attribute points on level up or during the CC than I am that it appearing as though I must use the crafting system in order to compete in DAI on any difficulty higher than casual...

 

 

Okay, so which developer, exactly, said that you won't find equipment sets in the world with attribute bonuses? Because that's the only way that this makes the crafting system mandatory.

 

That's the wrong question...  The right question is which developer, exactly, said there are going to be armor sets found on the main paths, after every battle, and in enough varieties to make the crafting system completely unnecessary for anything other than having a specific armor value with a custom look?

 

Everything other than the main quest line is also "optional"... And if you must explore, or otherwise leave the main path, in order to get armor sets required to get past boss fights, then it's as "optional" as crafting.

[xkg]

You buy talents like in the previous games, but can only use the ones you set on the hotbar while in combat and it has only 8 slots.

 

On top of that, once the combat starts you can't pause and swap them. So you're stuck with the chosen 8 until the end.

The only way to change them is to disengage.

[Rawgrim]

wrong. It is entirely apropriate to bring up DnD, because you're arguing that attributes make the character. They don't. They never have. They never will. They are a small part of the character. A small part which is now infinitely versatile.

Also, if you felt that final comment doesn't apply to you, then ignore it. It's a general remark, and clearly not aimed at you directly.

 

Try playing Planescape Torment. Put 18 on your charisma, inteligence, or wisdom score. Then try it while placing the points on your other stat instead. Yeah. Stats do define the character a lot in that game. The same goes for plenty others.

[DMaster2]

Oh hey, it's this topic again. And the same 5-6 people agreeing with each other about how terrible the change is. Again.

So because you don't care then people cannot express their ideas? Btw the change indeed suck, keeping a toggle auto/manual (with auto default to accomodate the bad pl... *ehm* newb) would've leave everyone happy enough.

[berrieh]

Sorry but when it comes to mathematics and combinations it's not true. The more elements you can chose from the given set the more combinations you can get.

 

From what I've read on this forum, there are more unique rogue and unique warrior abilities than previously, and all of the classes have greater combinations of abilities within (when you consider the impact of passives) the trees in DA:I than ever before. You can choose from more elements; you can merely have less active at ONE time. That is greater choice on both sides - more possible options and combinations before the choice and more choices after because there are more ways to craft a strategy from the pool available. 

 

If I can choose from 16 things for 16 slots, that is less combinations than 16 things for 8 slots. And the game gives you many more than 16 things to choose from anyway. In the first example, choices and options are never really being made. 

 

For example, I never felt there was any difference between rogues in DA:O. All my rogues could do two-handed and archery by the end of the game. Replaying after playing the first two times (rogue, mage - I hated DA:O warriors) was kind of boring in terms of combat. In DA2, there was some distinction within the class, and in DAI, there appears to be even more with the abilities providing different builds within. I know mages were over-favored previously and thus have a smaller number of abilities, but I think that's more a flaw of earlier games (they should never have had more unique talents than the other classes to begin with) than the newer game. Bridging the gap by adding more to 2 classes and having to cut a bit from 1 class makes sense. 

[LordParbr]

The Attribute system is actually less complex.  In DA2 you had the ability to assign attributes via level up, and add to those via equipment.  In DAI, we've lost the former, and still have the latter.  I am less bothered by the fact that I can't assign attribute points on level up or during the CC than I am that it appearing as though I must use the crafting system in order to compete in DAI on any difficulty higher than casual...

No, it's more complex. In the earlier games, you could directly alter your atributes, but there were no additional attributes gained through abilities, and the items which added to them were VERY few and far between, usually requiring a full set.

Now, while you can't change your attributes directly, they still improve as you level, AND items can increase them, AND abilities give bonuses.
 

 

 

 

That's the wrong question...  The right question is which developer, exactly, said there are going to be armor sets found on the main paths, after every battle, and in enough varieties to make the crafting system completely unnecessary for anything other than having a specific armor value with a custom look?

 

Everything other than the main quest line is also "optional"... And if you must explore, or otherwise leave the main path, in order to get armor sets required to get past boss fights, then it's as "optional" as crafting.

 

No, that's not the right question, that's a stupid question, because there's no guarantee that you'll be able to make better armor that quickly either. Your need to min-max your character doesn't make the crafting system less optional. It may give you better bonuses, faster, but that's just an incentive to use it. You still don't have to.

[xkg]

If I can choose from 16 things for 16 slots, that is less combinations than 16 things for 8 slots. And the game gives you many more than 16 things to choose from anyway. In the first example, choices and options are never really being made. 

 

Did you read, I said from the math standpoint, not your opinion. I explained it in details before, seems I have to repeat myself.

In math:

 

Go here and look at the first example (5 elements)

http://www.sangakoo....hout-repetition

 

If you can chose 3 from set of  5 elements  = 25 combinations (26 if you consider the empty set)

If you can chose 5 from 5 = 31 combinations (32 with empty set)