248 réponses à ce sujet

[Mukora]

Gear has done that since the first game, though.

[LordParbr]

We pick ONE thing when leveling up in this game. ONE. We get a skill or a spell. That's it. The game does the rest for us. Basically creating the character for us. And out of the skills and abilities we can chose, we can only use 8 of them. Simply because "You need to think". A very odd sentiment, really, given how they make it impossible to do anything wrong when leveling up your character. We get a cardboard character, that is tailor made for one single role. Zero freedom. A roleplaying game where the game levels up for you. The choice of skills is the next one to go.

Somebody get him a bottle! Someone's being fussy. It's ironic that you, of all people, brought up Planescape earlier.

[Medhia_Nox]

@EntropicAngel:  Why not? 

 

It's made out of fantasy materials. 

 

It might make no sense for a wool sweater to change your stats (though I'd argue it would increase your cold resistance) - but I'm not exactly keen on the natural properties of elfroot... wait, I am though, it makes magical potions that heal me.  Real herbs don't do that... no, they don't no matter how much better you feel after a nice English Breakfast tea. 

 

Gaining the majority of your life experience from killing things makes absolutely no sense... and yet, it's been the trope of rpgs since the beginning.

 

Note:  In the game Rolemaster - you gained full experience the first time you did something - but every time after, you gained increasingly diminished xp. 

 

Learning a new spell, or how to be a better diplomat, or a the history of the Free Marches after killing a darkspawn is just a game mechanic - there's nothing sensible about it.

[Galaxy_Siege]

I actually look forward to not having it tied to level up. I am fairly indecisive in how I initially start out and tend to go a different route then initially planned. It is very nice that we don't get punished by early indecision with important stat points. Plus if you have a change of heart half way through then its fairly easy to shift your build around via crafting. 

 

I can see the opposite side of the coin though and understand the concern. I just suggest giving it a try before you worry. It might turn out to be pretty awesome.

[Vandicus]

A few months towards the end of the Dev cycle out of four yrs is not a lot, at least not from me.

I am a self-proclaimed Bioware fanboy, and have enjoyed almost every title they have created; consider NWN1 and DAO as my top RPG's of this Century. But being informed of more loss of character control while customization is highly touted seemed like a great opportunity to present the notion that it could have been greater.

And it is a bit ironic that 'generic' is used as a descriptor for the past games, when it also may apply to the characters of this new one, IMO.

A generic warrior can perform any role(if he can specialize by changing gear).

 

A specific(specialized) warrior can only ever perform one.

 

Locking players into sticking with a specific stat allocation punishes experimentation(its too late in the game when you've allocated 80% of your stats only to find out that super high endurance means you can't put out any damage with your MC)

[Rawgrim]

Somebody get him a bottle! Someone's being fussy. It's ironic that you, of all people, brought up Planescape earlier.

 

A completely different game. It is lie comparing Star Wars to Terminator. "John Conner was annoying in Terminator 3! That means Jar-Jar Binx is ok". And we didn't have two games before it who had certain things we could do suddenly removed in a third game.

[LordParbr]

A completely different game. It is lie comparing Star Wars to Terminator. "John Conner was annoying in Terminator 3! That means Jar-Jar Binx is ok". And we didn't have two games before it who had certain things we could do suddenly removed in a third game.

No, the content of that particular argument of yours made it entirely apropriate to invoke Planescape. Yes, they're different games, and Planescape was not the 3rd game in its series. However, due to the content of that particular argument you made, that doesn't matter. You were whining that we can only buy skills when we level up now, and our attribute point allocation is done for us, as if that's inherently bad design. My point is that other great games have done pretty much the same thing.

Also, your analogy doesn't helo your case. annoyingness is an inherently negative quality in a character. It was a negative quality of John is T3, and it was a negative quality of Jar-Jar. You're comparing annoyingness to an inability to allocate attributes at level-up. Which means, you are outright saying, possibly inadvertantly, that not being able to allocate attribute points at level-up is an inherently negative mechanic(or, lack of one, as it happens).

[Elhanan]

I actually look forward to not having it tied to level up. I am fairly indecisive in how I initially start out and tend to go a different route then initially planned. It is very nice that we don't get punished by early indecision with important stat points. Plus if you have a change of heart half way through then its fairly easy to shift your build around via crafting. 
 
I can see the opposite side of the coin though and understand the concern. I just suggest giving it a try before you worry. It might turn out to be pretty awesome.

The counter is that in the past, having the system Auto-Lvl for you was also available as an option. Now it is mandatory, and those on the opposite side have lost their option to choose. And early errors can/ could have been fixed with Respec potions that will be available.

[Elhanan]

A generic warrior can perform any role(if he can specialize by changing gear).
 
A specific(specialized) warrior can only ever perform one.
 
Locking players into sticking with a specific stat allocation punishes experimentation(its too late in the game when you've allocated 80% of your stats only to find out that super high endurance means you can't put out any damage with your MC)

Thing is, this generic warrior can either use 2H or S&S; no daggers, ranged weapons, staves, etc. And any errors can/ could have been fixed with Respec potions that will be available in game.

[Rawgrim]

No, the content of that particular argument of yours made it entirely apropriate to invoke Planescape. Yes, they're different games, and Planescape was not the 3rd game in its series. However, due to the content of that particular argument you made, that doesn't matter. You were whining that we can only buy skills when we level up now, and our attribute point allocation is done for us, as if that's inherently bad design. My point is that other great games have done pretty much the same thing.

Also, your analogy doesn't helo your case. annoyingness is an inherently negative quality in a character. It was a negative quality of John is T3, and it was a negative quality of Jar-Jar. You're comparing annoyingness to an inability to allocate attributes at level-up. Which means, you are outright saying, possibly inadvertantly, that not being able to allocate attribute points at level-up is an inherently negative mechanic(or, lack of one, as it happens).

 

The Planescape comment I made in a completely different context. I brought it up because you claimed stats have nothing to do with the character at all - in any rpg. In games like Planescape the stats are everything.

 

Name 5 great rpgs that allocate the stats on Level-up for the player.

 

Being critical and wanting more choice and freedom for the player, or at least a toggle for it = whining. Gottcha.

 

Handholding isn't bad. But for those of us who want some freedom when it comes to character creation, a simple toggle for it wouldn't harm anyone.

[Mukora]

Name 5 great rpgs that allocate the stats on Level-up for the player.

Chrono Trigger, Earthbound, Deus Ex had no stats at all, Does Fire Emblem count?

 

Being able to allocate stats isn't the be-all end-all of a great RPG. I understant your frustration with this change, but please don't blow it out of proportion.

[IndyAnna]

I don't like the part about Bioware picking my stats, I'd rather they had taken stats out than them picking them.

 

The reason being Bioware is really bad at designing rogues. Take KOTOR the scoundrel was given the single weapon feat, take the dlc for DAO the Dwarven rogue was given all 4 disarm trap but zero stealth, I never saw a decent rogue (engineer) in ME. I play as a rogue type character in their games because I can make a better rogue than they can.

 

Bioware's strong point is the story line not character design. I'll buy the game but only when the price drops a lot. I feel they took too much away from the player's choices and forced their choices on my character.

[Boboverlord]

Can someone summarize to me about pros and cons for removing manual attribute allocation, and to what extend about putting the allocation work to equipment customization instead?

 

I have played Dragon Nest (which is an MMO) and the stat build is 95% relying on equipments only, even for some skill improvement (skill rings like DA:I). If DA:I is similar then player's freedom of stat allocation will be the same as the games that allow it directly like Ragnarok Online.

[ianvillan]

When combat was designed in conjunction (read: handcuffed to) multiplayer, it's hard not to.

 

Bioware have said that the combat was designed first with multiplayer so they would work and be fun in the multiplayer and were then put into the single player game.

[SurelyForth]

Bioware have said that the combat was designed first with multiplayer so they would work and be fun in the multiplayer and were then put into the single player game.

 

Where did they say that? 

[Gileadan]

To me, the importance and meaning of attributes depends on the kind of RPG I'm playing.

 

In action RPGs like Diablo III, attribute points are merely tools to build the ultimate killing machine. That's all what the game is about, after all - how fast can you massacre these greater rifts. I don't care whether they come from my character or my equipment, I care about the result - tons of dead monsters.

 

In story driven RPGs, which I hope DA:I will be, attributes also describe a character's personality for me, in a way. For example, when I play a warrior, I like to play smart warriors, a thinking man with a long blade. That means I generally put a few points into Intelligence or Cunning, even if I don't gain any gameplay advantage from it. Of course, if that unlocks additional dialogue as it does in some games, all the better. In this scenario, I very much care whether actually my character is smart or whether he's of average intellect and only gets smarter when he wears his clever hat. Therefore, I like it when story driven RPGs let me allocate attribute points manually and to my character, not my gear. I'm also fine with games without main attributes like Skyrim, because that at least does not actively contradict the personality I have in mind for my character. However, in DA:I every attribute seems to remain at 10, unless it's a primary for the class that goes up with skills you pick, or with items your character wears. It means I cannot play my smart warrior, I can only play a warrior with smart gear. A character who is not more cunning than the average yokel unless he uses equipment as a crutch.

 

Of course, if I would be playing with merely efficiency in mind as I do in games like Diablo, nothing of the above would matter. But I want to play a certain personality, and so it does.

[ianvillan]

Where did they say that? 

 

In one of their interviews and on Twitter they said the encounters for the singleplayer game were designed and tested in multiplayer to make sure they were fun because having to load up the whole SP game every time would take too long to do.

 

Which goes to show that MP has had an effect on the SP game if they designed and tested the SP game using MP here who's to say they never did it anywhere else, and if their first choice for encounter design is MP then what else has MP been first choice over SP.

[SurelyForth]

In one of their interviews and on Twitter they said the encounters for the singleplayer game were designed and tested in multiplayer to make sure they were fun because having to load up the whole SP game every time would take too long to do.

 

Which goes to show that MP has had an effect on the SP game if they designed and tested the SP game using MP here who's to say they never did it anywhere else, and if their first choice for encounter design is MP then what else has MP been first choice over SP.

 

That is...quite the extrapolation, and one that you really shouldn't go around spouting off as undeniable fact. The MP environments were used because it was easier for them- that doesn't mean that they used MP mechanics when working on the SP campaign, nor does it mean that SP is fundamentally a port of MP, which is what you're implying when you say things like "Bioware said the combat was designed first with multiplayer so they would work and be fun in the multiplayer and were then put into the single player game."

[ianvillan]

That is...quite the extrapolation, and one that you really shouldn't go around spouting off as undeniable fact. The MP environments were used because it was easier for them- that doesn't mean that they used MP mechanics when working on the SP campaign, nor does it mean that SP is fundamentally a port of MP, which is what you're implying when you say things like "Bioware said the combat was designed first with multiplayer so they would work and be fun in the multiplayer and were then put into the single player game."

 

Why was MP easier for them, its not like they have to play 10 hours to get to the next combat encounter before they can design it. Bioware can go to any part of the SP game they want when they are designing encounters, yet they think using a separate system that has different maps and enemies will make the SP encounters FUN.

 

To make the SP encounters the best they could be they should be designed for that encounter itself, taking into account the map, enemies and level of the party, not if it was fun in another game.

 

Using the MP game for encounters is using the MP mechanics because they are different to the SP game mechanics.

 

The main thing that you seem to be ignoring is that we have constantly been told that the MP game had no effect what so ever on the SP game, which we now know to be false. If Bioware uses the MP game for a major feature as encounter design then what else have they used MP for, could it be that Attributes were taken out because of MP.

[xkg]

Chrono Trigger, Earthbound, Deus Ex had no stats at all, Does Fire Emblem count?

 

Being able to allocate stats isn't the be-all end-all of a great RPG. I understant your frustration with this change, but please don't blow it out of proportion.

 

I don't know about Rawgrim, but JRPGs and RPGs(or WRPGs) are two wastly different genres for me, and I have 0 interest in the former, and their game mechanics. 

But since we are on WRPG games dev froum and talking about upcoming WRPG game, may I ask you to name at least 3 great, party based, single player WRPGs that does that ?

[Mukora]

I don't know about Rawgrim, but JRPGs and RPGs(or WRPGs) are two wastly different genres for me, and I have 0 interest in the former, and their game mechanics.
But since we are on WRPG games dev froum and talking about upcoming game WPRG, may I ask you to name at least 3 great, party based, single player WRPGs that does that ?

I can't because no game has a system exactly like Dragon Age.

But I don't see why, if one did exist, not allowing you to distribute stats at level up would preclude it from being great. Why that one, single factor is so important. I understand liking it. I understand not understanding or being upset that it's gone. But I don't get why it's such a sacred cow to so many people. Why its absence is so detrimental to their experience.

And I've read all the posts in this thread and the last one. It still doesn't make sense to me.

[Rawgrim]

I can't because no game has a system exactly like Dragon Age.

But I don't see why, if one did exist, not allowing you to distribute stats at level up would preclude it from being great. Why that one, single factor is so important. I understand liking it. I understand not understanding or being upset that it's gone. But I don't get why it's such a sacred cow to so many people. Why its absence is so detrimental to their experience.

And I've read all the posts in this thread and the last one. It still doesn't make sense to me.

 

I can. Diablo 3 does it this way. It places statpoints for the player. The player can boost them later while crafting items. Almost identical, really.

 

It isn't that we don't get any ability points to stuff onto our character. It is the fact that there are points being placed on our character for us. Someone else is leveling up our character, in a way. Add the weapon limitations to the mix, and it really isn't possible to create a unique character in this game.

[Mukora]

Well, Diablo 3 is pretty good now, so that's hardly a negative comparison.

We don't know that unique character builds will be impossible. And even if so... meh? I understand the appeal, but it's not a dealbreaker for me. Like, I really don't understand the actual difference between chosing stats based on gear vs. based on level up. The end result is the same. It just seems like pointless splitting hairs and nitpicking. Looking for things to be upset about.

[seraphymon]

I can't because no game has a system exactly like Dragon Age.

But I don't see why, if one did exist, not allowing you to distribute stats at level up would preclude it from being great. Why that one, single factor is so important. I understand liking it. I understand not understanding or being upset that it's gone. But I don't get why it's such a sacred cow to so many people. Why its absence is so detrimental to their experience.

And I've read all the posts in this thread and the last one. It still doesn't make sense to me.

Well it is the fact that attributes might be done for us if we level up... and the last thing I want.. is more handholding.. However it isn't just one thing.. its part of a bunch of things in DAI that take away player choice.. all these little things add up.