Questa discussione ha avuto 92 risposte

[Senjougahara Hitagi]

That one is simply explained by her in DA2 if you bothered to listen to what she says.

 

Hawke first encounters Flemeth JUST after The Warden has left the Kocari Wilds with Alistair and Morrigan. She offers to assist in getting them to where they can get a boat to head to Kirkwall in exchange for him taking a vial containing a part of her essence on the grounds she figures Morrigan might want to do her over (naturally she doesn't tell Hawke this). So when Hawke gets to the point of taking the vial to the Dalish as part of the deal, by this point Morrigan may have got the Warden to 'kill' her and even if not the old 'vessel' most likely perishes when she is reborn via the ritual Merrill performs.

 

As for Leliana considering her limited conversation with Hawke, it'll be nice to get a proper conversation with her in DAI and so we can see the differences depending on the variables of her 'potential' encounter with the Warden (I say potential considering how you can avoid her almost completely in DAO). Maybe we will find out how she survived, maybe we won't. People need to just accept it and move on.

 

My god, I know that. That was aimed at the people that are surprised NOW that Leliana is alive. 

[DAJB]

Gaah! Leave it guys!

 

She's in DA:I. That's a given. For all we know, there'll be a whole backstory quest that will explain everything to everyone's satisfaction.

(No, I don't really think anything will be able to please everyone but, hey, since the Tapestry includes an option to acknowledge she was killed, I think we can assume there'll be some kind of explanation ...!)

 

So let's just park this one until the game's out, eh? 

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

My god, I know that. That was aimed at the people that are surprised NOW that Leliana is alive. 

I apologise if my post came across as offensive, I did not intend it to do so and I actually did figure you knew but decided to post the obvious point in case anyone brought it up again

[LexXxich]

i wonder if it'll be possible to never use her as advisor and never talk to her in DAI. Or do you absolutely must pay attention to all advisers?

[Fardreamer]

i wonder if it'll be possible to never use her as advisor and never talk to her in DAI. Or do you absolutely must pay attention to all advisers?

 

I don't think you have to use her if you don't want to, but she'll still probably offer advice during cutscenes.  It's up to you if you want to follow her advice or someone else's.  She's going to be the Secrecy/Espionage adviser, Cullen is the Force/Military adviser, and Josephine is the Commerce/Diplomacy adviser.  Just depends on how you want to play the game.

[AshenEndymion]

That one is simply explained by her in DA2 if you bothered to listen to what she says.

 

Hawke first encounters Flemeth JUST after The Warden has left the Kocari Wilds with Alistair and Morrigan. She offers to assist in getting them to where they can get a boat to head to Kirkwall in exchange for him taking a vial containing a part of her essence on the grounds she figures Morrigan might want to do her over (naturally she doesn't tell Hawke this). So when Hawke gets to the point of taking the vial to the Dalish as part of the deal, by this point Morrigan may have got the Warden to 'kill' her and even if not the old 'vessel' most likely perishes when she is reborn via the ritual Merrill performs.

 

As for Leliana considering her limited conversation with Hawke, it'll be nice to get a proper conversation with her in DAI and so we can see the differences depending on the variables of her 'potential' encounter with the Warden (I say potential considering how you can avoid her almost completely in DAO). Maybe we will find out how she survived, maybe we won't. People need to just accept it and move on.

 

Flemeth's survival is explained, but that doesn't make it any less of a retcon...

 

The explanation behind Leliana's may be as in-depth and plausible as Flemeth's.  People are just angry because Leliana hasn't explained how she survived...  Primarily because she's never had to.  After all, why explain something to people who were never present to dispute it, when the entire "conflict" between the Warden and Leliana could just be dismissed as rumor?

 

I'm almost certain, though, that If Morrigan sees Leliana, in a world state where the Warden corrupted the Ashes and "killed" Leliana, we'll finally get the actual explanation for how she survived.

[Evamitchelle]

Flemeth's survival is explained, but that doesn't make it any less of a retcon...

 

The explanation behind Leliana's may be as in-depth and plausible as Flemeth's.  People are just angry because Leliana hasn't explained how she survived...  Primarily because she's never had to.  After all, why explain something to people who were never present to dispute it, when the entire "conflict" between the Warden and Leliana could just be dismissed as rumor?

 

I'm almost certain, though, that If Morrigan sees Leliana, in a world state where the Warden corrupted the Ashes and "killed" Leliana, we'll finally get the actual explanation for how she survived.

 

I really don't see how Flemeth not being dead is a retcon. In DAO Morrigan says several times that she doubts Flemeth can actually be killed, and treats the Warden killing Flemeth as just something that buys her more time instead of a final solution to her problem. 

[Genuine UK]

this is not too big of a shock to me as Lillian was alive in dragon age novel masked empire 

[Natureguy85]

I really don't see how Flemeth not being dead is a retcon. In DAO Morrigan says several times that she doubts Flemeth can actually be killed, and treats the Warden killing Flemeth as just something that buys her more time instead of a final solution to her problem. 

 

This. Also Flemeth is an unknown being of unknown ability. We know she has avoided natural death, so it's no surprise she can avoid being killed. Also the explanation for Flemeth's survival came chronologically before her "death" at the hands of the Warden.

[Shelidon]

Hey, guys, just look at the bright side: maybe in Inquisition you'll be able to kill her again! Isn't that a treat to look forward to?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

In Flemeth's case, Morrigan actually tells you even before you kill her that she probably won't be dead afterward.

[Undead Han]

Why don't you tell us how you really feel? lol

 

Thing is, it's Bioware's story. They can do whatever they want with it. If they want to retcon something in the grand tradition of authors everywhere (even Tolkien did this *gasp!*) they are well within their rights.

 

Leliana is one of my favorite characters, but I agree with some of the criticism over this decision being ignored. I think the mistake Bioware made is in creating the option to kill characters who would later play a crucial role in sequels. If there is any chance of bringing a NPC back in a plot-important role in a subsequent game, you don't provide the option to kill them.

[crowskin]

Leliana is one of my favorite characters, but I agree with some of the criticism over this decision being ignored. I think the mistake Bioware made is in creating the option to kill characters who would later play a crucial role in sequels. If there is any chance of bringing a NPC back in a plot-important role in a subsequent game, you don't provide the option to kill them.

 

I can understand that. But the different thing about video games is that no game is ever guaranteed a sequel. Maybe BW had tenative plans to use Leliana if they should get the chance to make other games, but DAO was a complete unknown. For all BW knew, DAO would be the first and last in the series if it didn't make enough money. (That, actually, is why I think there are epilogue slides. Because BW didn't want to bet that they would be given leave for a sequel and so wanted to semi-wrap up the game.) So if you were making a game that you weren't sure would have a sequel, why not make Leliana killable? Also, it could be that they had Leliana's future role in mind for someone else, but ended up switching for story-related reasons and so they had to bring her back. That happened to Anders. Velanna, from what I understand, was supposed to be possessed by Justice and the plight of the elves would have been his battle cry. But they switched to Anders and therby retconned everything that happened to Anders that didn't mesh up with DA2's state.

 

But it still doesn't bother me. Authors bring back characters from the dead all the time. Douglas Adams had to invent something to do this because he didn't think he was getting a sequel either to Hitchhiker's. Video games being what they are, I'm not surprised or even upset that it happens. Besides, I like Leliana and the callback she represents to our very first game.

[AlanC9]

I have a much bigger "problem". I never recruited Leliana, I wasn't even aware she existed, I simply never walked into the house she was in. Imagine my surprise when I was playing DA2 and she appeared, and she was recognised as "the companion of the Warden". I kept trying to place her, and failed. I simply couldn't recall that character. So I read the walkthrough and oops, I completely missed out on a companion.
I have since then replayed dao and da2, including Leliana's song, and created my perfect playthrough but for a while, Leliana was nothing more than a con artist, telling people how she was the part of the Warden's group, while in fact she was a liar at best and maybe a stalker (I imagined her following me in the shadows).

Don't sweat this one. "Never recruited Leliana" is a choice in the Keep. So it's just another DA2 import bug.

[unclee]

Even if you did killed her it doesn't mean anything, Wynne died and came back, so did Evangeline. Once they set it up this way, there is nothing preventing them from reviving just about any character with some help of a friendly spirit from the Fade. 

 

Those three are in positions to be explained though. You left Leliana dying by the ashes, so what's stopping her from healing herself with them?

 

Wynne was possessed by a good spirit that was keeping her alive. Even if you killed her in the game the spirit kept her alive.

 

Evangeline was saved by Wynne sacrificing her remaining life, which is what finally does kill her.

 

Those three are easy to explain. Anders was the one that always bothered me. "Oh, you handed Anders over to the Templars in DA:A? Yeah, he still escaped and, for some reason, chose to become a Warden."

[AshenEndymion]

Those three are in positions to be explained though. You left Leliana dying by the ashes, so what's stopping her from healing herself with them?
 
Wynne was possessed by a good spirit that was keeping her alive. Even if you killed her in the game the spirit kept her alive.
 
Evangeline was saved by Wynne sacrificing her remaining life, which is what finally does kill her.
 
Those three are easy to explain. Anders was the one that always bothered me. "Oh, you handed Anders over to the Templars in DA:A? Yeah, he still escaped and, for some reason, chose to become a Warden."

 
Two things:
Leliana can't really use the Ashes since you've returned the power it contains to the Risen Andraste...
 
Yes, the Spirit would keep Wynne alive after you killed her in the Circle... Would it keep her alive after the Templars kill her again(because, you know, Rite of Annulment), and again(because she's come back to life twice, so she's clearly a bloodmagic-using abomination), and again(because at this point they'd hack her limbs apart and burn them just to be sure)?
 
If you kill Wynne at the temple, the spirit is enough of an explanation for her survival, though...  And it probably could help Leliana too, if you fought them both there...

[DAJB]

I didn't kill any of my companions, either in DA:O or DA2. I never wanted to - not even the ones I couldn't stand!  I hated Carver for being a whiny brat. I loathed Fenris for being just generally obnxious. I hardly ever chose either of them to accompany me on quests, but I wouldn't have killed them. And if I had accidentally chosen a dialogue option that did result in me killing them, I would actually want that to be retconned now.

 

Why? Because if there's one thing we learned from ME3 it's that having characters who reappear in a sequel, even if it's an unpopular character and only the very briefest of cameos, those characters can elevate that sequel to a whole different level. So, personally, I want as many former companions as possible to have at least a chance of reappearing in DA:I. I want them all to be alive.

 

And even if that meant having to pretend that the severed heads of Wynne and Leliana were handed over to Miranda Lawson and her Lazarus team, I'd be happy to accept that!

[Senjougahara Hitagi]

I didn't kill any of my companions, either in DA:O or DA2. I never wanted to - not even the ones I couldn't stand!  I hated Carver for being a whiny brat. I loathed Fenris for being just generally obnxious. I hardly ever chose either of them to accompany me on quests, but I wouldn't have killed them. And if I had accidentally chosen a dialogue option that did result in me killing them, I would actually want that to be retconned now.

 

Why? Because if there's one thing we learned from ME3 it's that having characters who reappear in a sequel, even if it's an unpopular character and only the very briefest of cameos, those characters can elevate that sequel to a whole different level. So, personally, I want as many former companions as possible to have at least a chance of reappearing in DA:I. I want them all to be alive.

 

And even if that meant having to pretend that the severed heads of Wynne and Leliana were handed over to Miranda Lawson and her Lazarus team, I'd be happy to accept that!

 

And that why you always have the troll kill Carver for you. So you wouldn't have to listen to him for the rest of the game while at the same time, keeping your hands clean.

[DAJB]

And that why you always have the troll kill Carver for you. So you wouldn't have to listen to him for the rest of the game while at the same time, keeping your hands clean.

Yup. That's exactly what I usually do!

 

Occasionally, though, I feel obliged to play as a mage (it just makes so much more sense in DA2!), so I have to put up with Carver and watch poor Bethany get torn apart!  

[Natureguy85]

Leliana is one of my favorite characters, but I agree with some of the criticism over this decision being ignored. I think the mistake Bioware made is in creating the option to kill characters who would later play a crucial role in sequels. If there is any chance of bringing a NPC back in a plot-important role in a subsequent game, you don't provide the option to kill them.

 

It's fine to do both but the key to any good reveal is that the consumer (player, reader, viewer depending on the medium) has to be able to look backward and see the breadcrumbs leading to that event. I just finished Call of Juarez: Gunslinger and it's a fantastic example of what I mean. On a 2nd playthrough, certain things stood out now that I'd seen the end.

[TimXP]

Based on the number of people who complain about Leliana being alive, I'd think the Warden killing her was the second most common event in the game after taking the Joining. But I'm guessing she's alive in the vast majority of playthroughs.

 

Still, for those who wear Leliana's severed head as a badge of honor, there are a ton of ways to rationalize it (and we'll probably get some sort of explanation, however vague, in DA:I). Sure, the Ashes were defiled, but we don't have any confirmation that doing so completely robs them of their healing ability. And as Oghren points out, the whole temple is full of lyrium, and you've already spoken to and/or fought multiple hallucinatory visions, spirits, and ghosts on your way to the Urn. By the time you're actually in the chamber, your Warden has basically been huffing magical paint fumes for a few hours. They're lucky they didn't see their own head fall off, let alone Leliana's.

 

Edit: I don't want to sound unsympathetic to people who want their choices to carry over. If Anders makes an appearance in DA:I, he'd better look as decrepit as DA:A Justice and still have Hawke's murder knife sticking out from between his shoulder blades. But the possibility of Leliana's death is clearly something BW are aware of, so it's bound to be explained somehow.

Modificata da TimXP, 09 novembre 2014 - 08:34 .

[Natureguy85]

I can understand that. But the different thing about video games is that no game is ever guaranteed a sequel. Maybe BW had tenative plans to use Leliana if they should get the chance to make other games, but DAO was a complete unknown. For all BW knew, DAO would be the first and last in the series if it didn't make enough money. (That, actually, is why I think there are epilogue slides. Because BW didn't want to bet that they would be given leave for a sequel and so wanted to semi-wrap up the game.) So if you were making a game that you weren't sure would have a sequel, why not make Leliana killable? Also, it could be that they had Leliana's future role in mind for someone else, but ended up switching for story-related reasons and so they had to bring her back. That happened to Anders. Velanna, from what I understand, was supposed to be possessed by Justice and the plight of the elves would have been his battle cry. But they switched to Anders and therby retconned everything that happened to Anders that didn't mesh up with DA2's state.

 

But it still doesn't bother me. Authors bring back characters from the dead all the time. Douglas Adams had to invent something to do this because he didn't think he was getting a sequel either to Hitchhiker's. Video games being what they are, I'm not surprised or even upset that it happens. Besides, I like Leliana and the callback she represents to our very first game.

 

You may well be right about how they viewed Dragon Age: Origins at the time. I've commented elsewhere that the end is satisfying because it is self contained. Sure there are other things in the world that are interesting such as Flemeth, the Old God Baby, and the continued existence of the Darkspawn, but the goal of stopping the Blight was satisfyingly accomplished. We get to feel heroic and rewarded after our victory and we get some interesting and sensible information on important people and places in the world.

 

This is why it was also OK to change protagonists and even change the main plot issues, though when they were doing that, they probably shouldn't have called it Dragon Age 2.

 

The problem is messing with things that had unambiguous outcomes. There was zero reason to think that Leliana was anything but dead if you killed her. A decision was made later to bring her back. This is only a small problem by itself. The big problem is Bioware not admitting to this and instead feeding us BS about how "we don't actually know what happened."

 

The other issue, and where Leliana differs from Anders, is they brought her back just for a bit part cameo. This could be better or worse depending on your perspective, but it's certainly more perplexing as to why they bothered.

[Natureguy85]

Based on the number of people who complain about Leliana being alive, I'd think the Warden killing her was the second most common event in the game after taking the Joining. But I'm guessing she's alive in the vast majority of playthroughs.

 

Still, for those who wear Leliana's severed head as a badge of honor, there are a ton of ways to rationalize it (and we'll probably get some sort of explanation, however vague, in DA:I). Sure, the Ashes were defiled, but we don't have any confirmation that doing so completely robs them of their healing ability. And as Oghren points out, the whole temple is full of lyrium, and you've already spoken to and/or fought multiple hallucinatory visions, spirits, and ghosts on your way to the Urn. By the time you're actually in the chamber, your Warden has basically been huffing magical paint fumes for a few hours. They're lucky they didn't see their own head fall off, let alone Leliana's.

 

Edit: I don't want to sound unsympathetic to people who want their choices to carry over. If Anders makes an appearance in DA:I, he'd better look as decrepit as DA:A Justice and still have Hawke's murder knife sticking out from between his shoulder blades. But the possibility of Leliana's death is clearly something BW are aware of, so it's bound to be explained somehow.

 

My concern is that it will be contrived nonsense that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Part of me almost wishes they don't because we already know she's back just because the devs felt like it. I'd say they just made it canon that you didn't kill her, but it is in the Keep.

[Noxis6]

Personally what suprised me is that the option of not recruiting her wasnt relegated to "head canon" by them too,although I doubt that choosing that one will change much either

[Birdy]

Personally what suprised me is that the option of not recruiting her wasnt relegated to "head canon" by them too,although I doubt that choosing that one will change much either

It was a decision made after DAO. Someone loved her so much that they brought her back.  And Not recruiting her, she shows up anyway.