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[Linkenski]

Just saw this pretty neat interview from PC gamer about the new Dragon Age, but I cringed so hard when I saw that Mark Darrah, the executive producer of DA:I said this: 

 

 

PC Gamer: What did you guys take from the success of the Mass Effect games that has found its way into the DNA of Dragon Age?

Mark Darrah: They’re definitely, at their hearts, different from a franchise perspective. Dragon Age is very much darker, and more mature, just from a tone perspective. Mass Effect is like a space opera. It’s essentially a teen rated IP at heart. It wants to be something that could be on television on a Sunday afternoon. Dragon Age, if it was a television show, would be on HBO. So, from a thematic story-telling perspective, they’re so different it’s hard for them to share. 

 

Just thought I'd share it. What do you think? personally, like I said, I find it kind of Ironic since DA to me was always more sappy and cartoonish with flat one-sided characters and stuff, at least compared to the Witcher which DOES remind me of Game of Thrones.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The Dragon Age series does feel more mature than ME, yes.

[Eddie Guns]

Good. I hope it's true. Mass Effect set the bar pretty high. Game developers should be looking to exceed it.

[Linkenski]

Excuse me? Dragon Age 2 feels almost like Saturday Morning cartoon at times. Anders whines and is easily offended. They don't use really dirty swear vocabulary (not arguing swearing is necessarily mature though) and the whole mage vs templar conflict is one-sided and not very complex. It's at least as fantasy opera-esque as Mass Effect is, unless DA:I is noticably more mature than DA2.

[Vazgen]

ME1? Somewhat agree. ME2? Agreed. ME3? Not a chance.

[Cobwebmaster]

Agree. DA was much more mature but DA2 downgraded the overall theme I thought. Then Bioware or EA took a back step after the so called "controversy over the sex scenes and the later MEs just became teen rated. In this country (UK) ME1 was rated a "12", while the later MEs got rated as a "15" the same rating as Baldur's gate 2 which was a much more mature RPG. In my view ME2 and 3 should have had the same rating as ME1 and I do not understand why Bioware restricted participation, unless it falls under the "panic response" production category

As for Witcher being reminiscent of and GoT? I think there are too many basic differences between them for that comparison to be more than having a simlar themed background of civil war which Skyrim also has.  GoT is about warring barons squabbling for dominance and all the political machinations that go with it. Roughly styled as a 14th century European p*ssing contest between various "royal" houses. I think that has some potential as a succesful MMORPG. GoT is a maturish theme in the books, but not having seen any of the tv versions of it I cannot comment. The Witcher series  so far is, while set in similar environs,  focused on the adventures of one individual and his efforts to get older and find a life for himself, while the rest of his world is tearing itself apart and dragging him into the maelstrom. The political climate is I think superbly interpreted in the Witcher and Geralt's role in it (or rather your's) is one that I just love to bits warts and all

Sorry didn't want to stray off topic, but ME3  has the commander of a heavy frigate with a crew of 30+ in a cut scene ordering a strike action involving thousands of spacecraft. That part just has to be some sort of teeny wet dream. A more mature version would have Shepard in context being part of an attack force with a specific mission and more than Shepard and Anderson would make it to the beam. A mature game would have Cerberus taken out of the picture a lot earlier. Admittedly in ME3 the theme does get darker in an end of the worldish kinda way, but the maturity thing needed a lot more work. There is a moral here and if you like a sort of irony in that DA with it's maturer rating is generally held in greater regard than ME. They are very different games and while the RPG element in both is top class the content and script writing show big differences in my view. I'm not sure that adults should be entrusted to write scripts aimed at teens

[Vapaa]

Mass effect aims at being a reconstruction of the space opera, Dragon age aims at being a deconstruction of the fantasy, and I think that's fine the way it is.

 

That said Mass effect did get darker and more nuanced with each iteration, ME3 being arguably bleak and downright depressing at times, relying heavily on the "War is hell" trope.

[SwobyJ]

Part of me just has to laugh at each franchise being boiled down to this, and it is easy to find many examples to contradict what he's saying. Some have already been stated here.

 

But I also kinda get it. I have the feeling that overall, Dragon Age is a franchise that may be more willing to get into the dirt of things, whereas Mass Effect is a franchise that may be more willing to lift us up. That's not always going to be the case, but I think it even has to do with the comparing symbolism of 'fighting dragons with a sword' vs 'flying up into space and shooting robots'.

 

Dragon Age can be as cartoonish as it wants, but it'll still be quite brutal. Mass Effect can be as dour as it wants, but it'll still have a lightheartedness. So its a matter of balances.

 

Keep in mind too that Mark knows much more about DAI than us (to the point that he'd include it in his view of the franchise) and at least somewhat more about ME4 than us.

 

I think all Bioware games try to straddle a line between T and M though. Enough M to get a M, but overall still accessible to the T players who will play it anyway, and acceptable to many of their parents.

 

I'd never actually call Dragon Age like an HBO show or Mass Effect like a teen afternoon show - that's a gross oversimplification but I think Mark is aware of that with his wording of "at heart". As I was saying, Dragon Age is a (non-Earth) fantasy that (ironically) keeps us grounded, while Mass Effect is a (Earth) scifi that (ironically) lifts us up. Dragon Age may be more open to nearly-directly tackling real-world issues that Mass Effect may just decide on using symbolism for.

[SwobyJ]

Mass effect aims at being a reconstruction of the space opera, Dragon age aims at being a deconstruction of the fantasy, and I think that's fine the way it is.

 

That is a good way of putting it. Fantasy is BW's roots but it isn't what they always want to be, so they deconstruct the genre in ways that keep things interesting to themselves, and this includes more mature themes increasingly being the focus. But scifi and/or space opera is something we have less rules about and less expectations, so trying to figure out what is really 'space opera' can be an iterative process in itself - there can still be mature themes, but it doesn't need to be the forefront of the design. It can still, overall, be a shooty shooty wow-action-adventure-heroics-etc series. Fantasy though? We've seen it before. Over and over and over and over, so experimentation is not just nice-to-do, but nearly essential if we don't want the genre to die.

[txgoldrush]

Mass effect series > DA series.

 

And really, Mark Darrah needs a backslap to the face because really Mass Effect handles things a lot more maturely and it has far more mature themes than Dragon Age. And Mass effect 3 is Bioware's darkest game.

 

As for maturity, you can tell by the romances....Mass Effect handles their romances far more deeply and maturely than Dragon Age (ex. Thane). Mass effect also handles themes on the human condition (like PTSD in all three games) far better than Dragon Age.

 

The only thing darker in Dragon Age is the violence and the gore, but less mature. Theme wise, the Mass Effect series is much more mature.

[ZipZap2000]

ME > DA for maturity.

 

DA lacked that special something and really felt more like a coming of age book that gives you all the good bits but finds ways to avoid those adult issues that tend to plague us once we become adults. ME trilogy appeals directly too that, the simple act of engaging in conversations that younger audiences would call boring goes a long way toward that on it's own.

 

Then there's the grief, loss, laughter, sacrifice and friendships. You genuinely feel like you're playing through somebody's life with ME not so much DA. Especially not DA2.

[KaiserShep]

Mass effect series > DA series.

 

And really, Mark Darrah needs a backslap to the face because really Mass Effect handles things a lot more maturely and it has far more mature themes than Dragon Age. And Mass effect 3 is Bioware's darkest game.

 

While I'm curious to know what those things are, where I take issue with this part is the idea of a "mature theme"? I mean, what makes a theme mature or otherwise, and in what way does Mass Effect have more? Being a science fiction story, some themes may be incongruous to a medieval-style fantasy anyway.

 

 

As for maturity, you can tell by the romances....Mass Effect handles their romances far more deeply and maturely than Dragon Age (ex. Thane). Mass effect also handles themes on the human condition (like PTSD in all three games) far better than Dragon Age.

 

I'm of the opinion that Dragon Age beats Mass Effect with a barbed wire-wrapped baseball bat when it comes to companion interaction, for the simple reason that companions in Dragon Age have reactivity. That they will respond a certain way based on the protagonist's actions and choices of dialogue gives each companion greater definition and gives you a sense of their own morality. The only thing that may make Mass Effect's romances feel deeper is the fact that these romances can span for the entire trilogy, rather than existing solely in a single game. In any case, Shepard can be the biggest jerk in the universe, and no one cares.

 

And then there's the initiation. ME2 is pretty much the worst of the lot for me, because the way Shepard approaches these characters is really awkward. The only exception in the entire thing, in my opinion, is Garrus. For everyone else, Shepard can seem like a creepster or something. Just listen to the dialogue between FemShep and Jacob, or M!Shep and Miranda and Jack, the latter of which strikes me as a little unsettling.

 

 

The only thing darker in Dragon Age is the violence and the gore, but less mature. Theme wise, the Mass Effect series is much more mature.

 

 

Again, this mature theme idea is rather vague. Both games deal with issues of racism and slavery, but Dragon Age tends to approach it more directly with the plight of the elves. But one major issue that Mass Effect never really got around to correcting is the terribly one-sided approach to depicting its leadership. Look at the Council, and look at Udina. The central government in Mass Effect is largely ineffectual, despite being the representatives of the most advanced races in the galaxy, yet they provide little more than an annoying obstacle for the great and powerful warriors. Everyone in an executive position in a corporation was corrupt and evil.

 

Now, I love Mass Effect, and I've played through the trilogy plenty of times, but Dragon Age has pretty much spoiled me when it comes to its roleplaying elements.

[Cobwebmaster]

ME > DA for maturity.

 

DA lacked that special something and really felt more like a coming of age book that gives you all the good bits but finds ways to avoid those adult issues that tend to plague us once we become adults. ME trilogy appeals directly too that, the simple act of engaging in conversations that younger audiences would call boring goes a long way toward that on it's own.

 

Then there's the grief, loss, laughter, sacrifice and friendships. You genuinely feel like you're playing through somebody's life with ME not so much DA. Especially not DA2.

Disagree. ME has a simple "Nice" or Naughty" grading system based on actions or responses during conversations. Loves, laughs, losses, and sacrifices are experienced through a basic emotive empathic/sympathetic (or not) reactions. What is the difference then in emotional terms between say Ashley's loss of her brother in law and a child losing his or her pet goldfish? . The emotional response from the child and the adult will be identical but the recovery period will differ

Support from a social website during an emotional time can be the same as any invoked through ME personal interactions, but as facebook minimum entry level is 13. A "mature" definition is applied from an individual's personal perception. What is mature for a 16 year old may well be seen as teenish from a 30 year old or juvenile from the next generation up  

[Arcian]

It doesn't sound like Mark Darrah has actually played Mass Effect. Maybe he just watched the E3 trailer for the first game. At least then I'd understand how he missed the 1 billion years of cyclical genocides that has caused the suffering and deaths of tens of thousands of trillions of living, intelligent, feeling individuals. Women, children and men alike. Sunday afternoon television my primitive ass.

Dragon Age, on the other hand, is a grimdark joke of a franchise which tries waaaaay too hard to be like Asoiaf+LotR... which probably is why Mr. Darrah seems to think it could fit in on HBO.

[ZipZap2000]

@cobwebmaster Sorry can't type atm computer going nuts.

 

Edit: Forget it my computer is doing weird things again i'll try to respond later when it lets me type properly and doesn't post my stuff before i'm finished.

[von uber]

Mass effect is pretty shallow on a lot of themes.

Take jack for example. She us supposed to be a massively traumatised person; but you know a bullet to the head solves everything.
Failing that, there's the magic curing power of the penis for someone who has been brutally sexually abused for her life.

Yep, really mature. It can't even show nipples for god sake - exploding heads is fine though. That alone for me puts it into the 14yr old bracket for maturity for a lot of stuff.

Even the 'war is hell' theme doesn't work in me3 as you never suffer the loss of anyone close - garrus doesn't get randomly blown to pieces in front of you mid conversation. You don't have to desperately hold liaras guts in as she slowly bleeds out and there is nothing you can do to prevent it.

Most players wouldn't like that loss of control or the impact of the reality of war. It all happens off screen (they did try at least with the kid but it fell flat - now if it had been Anderson...).

For example why can't joker find out about the asari who had to kill his sister? That would have been an interesting thing, she had no choice to do it (and arguably saved her from being huskified) but would joker see that? How would he react to the loss? What would we do if asked if we knew anything?

Bioware skirt around the edges of an adult game but at the end of the day they need to sell it to as wide an audience as possible, and for some reason they think the under 18 demographic the most important. Which is a shame.

[ZipZap2000]

Ok trying again. Have to keep it short

 

The paragon renegade system isn't as simple as naughty or nice in most cases it's directly tied to the players own moral code which is something still in development for young people.  

 

Comparing a child losing a goldfish to humanising Ashley by creating an emotional bridge, through the death of a loved ones loved one doesn't really fit, the point is she needs to be there to support her sister again as she did growing up through a deeply troubling time. It's hard to see a teenager relating to that kind of personal responsibility.

 

I just don't see that in dragon age at all I think a teenager would find dragon age to have more appeal due to more simplistic choices. Do I let X join our band of merry hero's or not? Do I pick the angry dwarf or the noble one. The fantasy is more alive than the protagonist.

 

I respect your opinion however and I know mine doesn't supersede yours by default.

[Linkenski]

Yet, in all games we end up getting everyone killed, make people hate Shepard and betray people if we only play Renegade. Nah, their paragon renegade system is more often than not "as simple as naughty or nice".

 

And sure, that kinda makes Mass Effect more immature, where Dragon Age 2's and now Inquisition's approach to "Choice dialogue wheels" are more gray, and therefore realistic and therefore more mature.

 

I still think what makes particularly Dragon Age 2 contradict Mark Darrah's statement is how the Mage vs Templar mentality gets beaten over our heads in a very "He hit me first" on kindergarden level kind of way, and they use timeskipping as a cop-out for change and family as an artificial plot-device for grief and character-development for the protagonist et cetera, et cetera. None of these writing flaws fit in with HBO material, or Game of Thrones quality that Mark is obviously hinting at.

 

DA:I has more writers, and Patrick Weekes, mind you, plus hopefully David Gaider and co. learned a thing or two from DA2 just because of fan-backlash, so there's a chance that DA:I is actually more mature, morally grey and realistic, or "HBO material"

 

I think Mass Effect, on multiple levels tackled many of its themes with much more sublety but it goes back and forth. ME1 has a lot of philosophical dialogue between Shepard and Ashley, and the theme of "Humanity is the new kid in town of galactic civilization." is handled pretty well. ME2 is well... ME2, and ME3 handles its themes of sacrifice, hope and war with some pretty well too, and has many thought-provoking moments like some of Garrus' conversations, the Tuchanka arc and the Rannoch arc. I think they screwed up a lot of the synthetics vs organics conflict by giving all the AI characters to Chris Hepler when Chris L'Etoile left, but that's for another topic.

 

I'm just saying, that I feel as if Mass Effect went more in depth whereas I found particularly DA2 to be more complex and convoluted on a superficial level than actually having some substance at least in regards to its main theme of Mages vs Templars. The Qunari conflict was handled okay.

[ZipZap2000]

Define naughty though. One person might see jihad as evil another as a holy path to redemption the definition is completely up to that persons moral code and tied to their belief system.

 

You changed your post and wrote something different now mine doesn't make sense anymore, disregard.

[dreamgazer]

MATURITY!

[Iakus]

Frankly, they both try too hard to be all "dark and edgy" and full of feelz.

 

Mass Effect has just proven to be much worse at it.

[KaiserShep]

Wait a minute. When was Dragon Age ever "grimdark"? The criteria changes so much it has no meaning anymore.

[Sir DeLoria]

Neither franchise is dark.

But overall I think DA focuses a lot more on tactics and story than ME. The further the ME series progressed, the more it turned into an action-RPG.

[txgoldrush]

@KaiserShep

 

Lets list the ways why Mass Effect is more mature.

 

1. Romances, already covered this.

2. Side quests....many of Mass Effect quests deal in the human condition and questions with no easy answers. For example, the quest where you determine where a fallen soldier's body goes back to her husbands or kept for research. DA on the other hand is all over the place.

3. A more consistent thematic universe...the entire universe is built around the "control of destiny and fates of others", while DAO is all over the place.

4. Mass Effect is far more subtle than beat you over the head Dragon Age.

5. Interaction....outside of Hawke dealing with his family. DA fails to capture the personal aspect and the relationship aspect Mass Effect has. And this is with DA having more dialogue options. And if you want to point to the Paragon/Renegade system, well, that's more nuanced in theory than both Dragon Ages, where DAO is still KOTOR light and dark without the meter and DA2 having that tone wheel that didn't work to well.

 

And Mass Effect and The Old Republic dealt with racism just as much as Dragon Age, and even handles it better than DA. The Witcher also handles it better than DA. And the Council in Mass Effect is ineffectual because they aren't the power, the planetary governments are.

 

And here is the big difference that makes Mass Effect the far better franchise, not just a more mature one. Mass Effect is an influence, DA is influenced. While Mass Effect has its influences and pulls from them, other gaming companies have been influenced by them and games have taken features from the Mass Effect series. Dragon Age (which combat is a rip of FF12), not so much, if anything, it went more Mass Effect's direction in many things such as dialogue wheel and more robust character missions.

[txgoldrush]

@Sir DeLoria

 

The genre doesn't determine whether a franchise is more mature or not. And Mass Effect focuses more on story than Dragon Age. That's because of DAO's huge pacing issues and DA2's wonky format.