232 réponses à ce sujet

[Dabrikishaw]

Both are equally immature.

[KaiserShep]

If I may chime in on the debate:

 

I think Mark Darrah is correct with his statement. Regardless of all the brutaliy presented, the ME trilogy always had this simplistic feel-good morality that tells you that everything will be ok if you follow your heart. You can exclude the ending if you want since it alone features a decision that doesn't have a preferred outcome based on intuitive morality, but even here the fact is that the ending was intended to come across as "uplifting", and that it didn't was a storytelling failure, not a feature. The ME trilogy made some token efforts to cater to a more mature mindset, but it was rarely more than a token effort. Even where things got really dark as when you chose to sabotage the genophage, the game did everything it could to tell you you weren't supposed to make that choice. ME was more heavy-handed in its moralizing than any other Bioware game I've played, which, in my experience, is more likely to appeal to a T audience rather than an M audience. it also often appealed to emotion at the expense of reason, which is incompatible with any mindset you can reasonably call "mature".

 

Meanwhile, DA rarely went out of its way to attach values to the decisions you can make. That was left to the player and as a consequence, you have more freedom in roleplaying in DA, even where your choices are limited. A pro-templar Hawke could be any kind of person, while ME attached a certain dismissive or sometimes even sadistic tone and an almost canonical racism to Renegade Shepard. Playing a Renegade Shepard often felt like fighting the writers in ME. Meanwhile, the only preferences I have to fight when playing a pro-templar character in any DA game are my own.

 

The DA games may have their flaws, but overall they give me considerably more freedom in my roleplaying, and they haven't yet punished me for actually thinking about things and following up on that with a decision, even where that goes against the intuitive good. That's why I count them considerably more mature at heart than the ME games. For me personally, almost all of my problems with the ME trilogy can be tracked to my inability to recognize early enough that this - a classic space opera with easy-to-grasp, intuitive heroism - is exactly what ME wanted to be. You can play the DA games the same way and succeed, but it's more satisfying if you don't. Meanwhile, divert your Shepard from Bioware's vision and you'll end up fighting the story and being frustrated at every turn.   

 

I think this sums things up just about perfectly for me.

[o Ventus]

I... Who... What?

 

I would say it depends. Both series have their fair share of childish moments, but both of them are mature at just as many points.

[Dean_the_Young]

@ HYR 2.0

 

Renegade choices can be useful. in ME2, choosing the Renegade path in ME2 makes Zaeed happy and lets you avoid a high speech check to keep his loyalty. Paragons can finish that quest without his loyalty, even kill him.

 

 

Killing him is actually Renegade. Of course, the solution to the 'cost' of not siding with Zaeed up front is simply to be more Paragon.

 

'Insufficiently Paragon' isn't the same as 'Paragon comes at a cost.'

 

 

Renegades also hurt the gunship in Garrus's recruitment mission, takes a killer out of the world in Samara's loyalty mission, etc.

 

None of these provide any narrative or reactive consequences afterwards.
 

 

The Paragon non-charm option in Tali's loyalty mission has repercussions in ME3.

 

Which can be run around by... being more consistently Paragon.

 

'Insufficiently Paragon' again.
 

 

And Renegades have the optimal outcome in the Tuchanka scenario when it comes to War Assets.

 

 

That's moving the goal posts just a tad for a pretty inconsequential advantage. You can get more war assets from fetch quests than you get from the entire Tuchanka scenario. Which, the one you provide, also carries severe narrative costs and implications for the Renegades that the Paragons get to avoid.

[Khemikael]

Imho, over the years, HBO has got a reputation of adding sex, boobs and butts everywhere (remember HBO-GO comercials or the sketch: This is not pr0n, this is HBO). I don't think it is a very mature behaviour, actually this is a very effective way to attract hormone-filled teenagers. Is this the path DA:I wants to walk?

 

I'm not a big fan of Dragon Age, so thank you Mark, I needed another reason not to play DA:I

[BaladasDemnevanni]

What is so "mature" about Game of Thrones??

 

Well, there's the surface level stuff. Blood, sex, violence, etc. Mature in the sense that we want to keep kids as far away from that **** as possible. 

 

Then there's mature in the sense that it deals with sensitive issues or subject matter that is complicated in scope. 

 

Game of Thrones, I would say, jumps between the two, depending on its mood. 

[Iakus]

What is so "mature" about Game of Thrones??

I have a hard time crediting anything that uses the term "sexposition" with maturity

[Linkenski]

I don't think GoT is mature just because it has a lot of killing and sex scenes, but I do find it to be mature in its narrative when no character is seemingly sacred, and the plot is largely formed by the motivations of the characters whereas I think in almost every game Bioware tends to have a lot of plot-points arise out of nowhere, or they conveniently change a character's behaviour to form the plot they want. It's also that GoT seems to handle its grey morality better, but I will say now that I have beaten Inquisition that it was overall much less black and white than Origins for instance, for the most part.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

I don't think GoT is mature just because it has a lot of killing and sex scenes, but I do find it to be mature in its narrative when no character is seemingly sacred, and the plot is largely formed by the motivations of the characters whereas I think in almost every game Bioware tends to have a lot of plot-points arise out of nowhere, or they conveniently change a character's behaviour to form the plot they want. It's also that GoT seems to handle its grey morality better, but I will say now that I have beaten Inquisition that it was overall much less black and white than Origins for instance, for the most part.

 

Good point regarding Bioware's plot habits. I think it's also dangerous to say that any product can only ever be mature or immature. It can be different things in different aspects. Star Wars is incredibly light-hearted at times, with characters dropping amusing one-liners while under threat of death. But I'd wager more than a few people here think Star Wars is mature in other respects. 

[CptFalconPunch]

I don't think GoT is mature just because it has a lot of killing and sex scenes, but I do find it to be mature in its narrative when no character is seemingly sacred, and the plot is largely formed by the motivations of the characters whereas I think in almost every game Bioware tends to have a lot of plot-points arise out of nowhere, or they conveniently change a character's behaviour to form the plot they want. It's also that GoT seems to handle its grey morality better, but I will say now that I have beaten Inquisition that it was overall much less black and white than Origins for instance, for the most part.

 

I think some of Bioware's plots, or at least part of, are extremely mature and well done. Plot points do arise from nowhere sometimes, but that happens sometimes in real life. The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference.

 

I do agree with the character thingy. I haven't played dragon age, but from the mass effect sequels (2,3) I can certainly see what you mean. KOTOR was too rudimentary to judge.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Well from a sex standpoint, Mass Effect it's you have one shot at it just before the end of the game. In DA2, for example, I'm playing it right now with femHawke as a rogue, and she did it with the elf in the brothel, then hooked up with Isabela, flirted relentlessly with Fenris and failed because I guess you can't have a rivalry and sex, then got it on with Anders and he moved in, then she had a threesome with Isabela and Zevran, and then signed on to be with Isabela's crew after all is done. So I guess that's a lot of sex for a video game. She was doing as well as Geralt did in TW. But Shepard? No. No sex please. Hawke so far is one of my favorite BW heroes.

[Linkenski]

I think some of Bioware's plots, or at least part of, are extremely mature and well done. Plot points do arise from nowhere sometimes, but that happens sometimes in real life. The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference.

 

I do agree with the character thingy. I haven't played dragon age, but from the mass effect sequels (2,3) I can certainly see what you mean. KOTOR was too rudimentary to judge.

Although sometimes those events are not even happening because of something a character does. Sometimes, weird **** just happens and you have to roll with it. GoT and Witcher both have one thing in common that I think makes them more mature in their narrative, and it's that both let the plot form itself naturally from fleshed out characters whose motivations and actions set stuff in motion.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Although sometimes those events are not even happening because of something a character does. Sometimes, weird **** just happens and you have to roll with it. GoT and Witcher both have one thing in common that I think makes them more mature in their narrative, and it's that both let the plot form itself naturally from fleshed out characters whose motivations and actions set stuff in motion.

 

That's not really maturity though, is it? That sounds more like basic, plain 'ole good writing.

[Linkenski]

You're right about that :-P One can be stupid and mature as well as smart but immature.

[Vazgen]

I'm currently playing Origins and one thing that game is more "mature" than Mass Effect is that it does not afraid to use women and children as victims. Human Noble origin, even the cutscene when you start a new game, Blood Mage specialization, Stone Prisoner DLC. Those are just examples. There was only one child in ME universe and we all know how it ended. 

I think that's a good thing about Dragon Age. For example, Skyrim is a complete opposite, it basically makes children immortal. 

While I know this post might sound horrible, in that aspect DA:Origins is more mature.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Dragon Age to me is a far deeper story than Mass Effect. Mass Effect, as much as I love the setting and the characters is far more simplistic and has far fewer consequences for your decisions. In DAO and DA2, you can have party members leave if you behave a certain way. In ME none of your party members leave - you do have the Kaidan - Ashley decision in ME1 and that's the only one you can't silvertongue your way out of.

 

Dragon Age Inquisition also takes on a more Game of Thrones atmosphere when you make you Inquisitor look like Daenerys Targarean, Rob Stark, or Tyrion Lannister.

 

And like all fantasy games, you look like you haven't washed your hair in months.

[Steelcan]

DA doesn't hold a candle to GoT

 

I will agree that its tone is different to ME, but calling it an IP meant for teens is just petty and inaccurate

[Reorte]

Dragon Age to me is a far deeper story than Mass Effect. Mass Effect, as much as I love the setting and the characters is far more simplistic and has far fewer consequences for your decisions. In DAO and DA2, you can have party members leave if you behave a certain way. In ME none of your party members leave - you do have the Kaidan - Ashley decision in ME1 and that's the only one you can't silvertongue your way out of.

I'd call that better but nothing much to do with maturity though (but then again I've already said that "maturity" is the wrong word to describe most of this discussion). Simplistic in mechanism.

[Linkenski]

DA doesn't hold a candle to GoT

 

I will agree that its tone is different to ME, but calling it an IP meant for teens is just petty and inaccurate

Well, calling it an IP for teens is petty and inaccurate if he's saying DA is any better, I'd rather say. Problem is that it seems that a lot of the higher-paids at Bioware are really not that familiar with some of the basic principles of writing. They look at writing from a surface-level, so Dragon Age having a lot of blood-splatter, violence and politics seems more mature than aliens and guns blazing, but when it comes down to the details and the execution Dragon Age is just no more sophisticated, really. A lot of its established lore and politics like the Mage vs Templar conflict are founded on some very stark and unnuanced ideas and seems quite arbitrary. There's a lot of needless complexity that doesn't even have any reason for being once you start looking at the root causes, or it conflicts are sustained over historic periods without any reason because nobody does anything to resolve it.

[FlyingSquirrel]

If I may chime in on the debate:

 

I think Mark Darrah is correct with his statement. Regardless of all the brutaliy presented, the ME trilogy always had this simplistic feel-good morality that tells you that everything will be ok if you follow your heart. You can exclude the ending if you want since it alone features a decision that doesn't have a preferred outcome based on intuitive morality, but even here the fact is that the ending was intended to come across as "uplifting", and that it didn't was a storytelling failure, not a feature. The ME trilogy made some token efforts to cater to a more mature mindset, but it was rarely more than a token effort. Even where things got really dark as when you chose to sabotage the genophage, the game did everything it could to tell you you weren't supposed to make that choice. ME was more heavy-handed in its moralizing than any other Bioware game I've played, which, in my experience, is more likely to appeal to a T audience rather than an M audience. it also often appealed to emotion at the expense of reason, which is incompatible with any mindset you can reasonably call "mature".

 

I don't think the Paragon or "intuitively good" choices in Mass Effect necessarily boil down to just "following your heart." I suppose that's one way to look at it, but to me, I usually saw the choices as being more about ends vs. means and the series' Paragon leanings as suggesting that ends don't, in and of themselves, justify means, which is a valid philosophical stance independent of what happens to be more emotionally rewarding.

[FlyingSquirrel]

I'd say ME beats DA in two categories:

 

1) The opportunities to shape Shepard's personality and attitudes across three games are a little better than what you're able to do with the Warden, Hawke, or the Inquisitor from what I've seen so far. Not that the DA protagonists are *bad* characters, but I felt like I had a better handle on the personalities of my different Shepards (and that, at least in some cases, those personalities were a little more interesting). On the other hand, I've only played each DA game once so far, so maybe I'll change my mind about that eventually.

 

2) In terms of world-building, I'd rather spend time in Mass Effect's version of the Milky Way than in Thedas. The major alien species in Mass Effect and their histories and backgrounds - along with the attitudes and points of view reflected by individual members of these species - feel fresh and inventive in the way they reflect social issues and conflicts that we recognize from human history without just copying and pasting new names onto specific historical events or plotlines from other sci-fi franchises (at least not that i can tell). Dragon Age does a good job with the qunari and the Mage/Templar conflict, but the portrayal of the elves and dwarves seems straight out of Fantasy 101.

 

Also, while both are guilty of the "insert obligatory combat sequence here" problem, I'd say Dragon Age tends to drag it out a little more.

 

In Dragon Age's favor, I'd say it is probably better than Mass Effect in terms of the writing of individual NPCs, as the games tend to be longer and a lot more unique dialogue is available with the main companions, and I think there are more instances where a *series* of choices - as opposed to, say, "blow up the Collector base or keep it" - seems to shape the overall outcome, e.g. the various parts where a companion will leave, all the conflicts at the Landsmeet, the Redcliffe situation in DA:O and how it ties into the Circle's problems, etc.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Both stories would require significantly better writing to be an HBO series on the caliber of Game of Thrones.

[justafan]

Having played DA:I for a while now, I would probably have to agree with this statement.  Mass Effect is something of a mix between Star Wars and Star Trek with a sprinkling of series like the reimagined BSG.  None of these series have episodes rated higher than PG-13 or TV-14.  This is not necessarily a bad thing. Mass Effect doesn't need to have a bunch of F-bomb dropping space marines or graphic violence to be good, and the romance scenes have always been PG-13 (example: Samantha "Showers in her underwear" Traynor).  It is an epic space opera without them and can continue to be.  Heck, I would argue that if you took away the exploding head shots, there is a convincing argument that ME3 should be rated T.

 

Dragon Age on the other hand takes its inspiration from things such as LOTR and Game of Thrones.  It takes place in a medieval inspired setting, and that time period was simply not pleasant.  The topics touched upon in DA:I are also much more closer to home than anything in Mass Effect.  For instance, the question of faith and religion is a fairly major theme of the game, and you can choose how your character handles the mantle of "Herald of Andraste", either believing it, rejecting it, taking advantage of it, or somewhere in between.  You can also choose how to deal with things such as a family disowning a child for their sexual orientation and other topics that are very rarely dealt with in video games or mainstream teen entertainment and are thus more likely to be featured on an HBO show such as Game of Thrones, which isn't held back by what normal TV is willing or able to show.  Also more obviously, DA tends to take more advantage of the M rating with more explicit violence in combat as well as more graphic romance scenes.

 

In the end, both are great series and for the most part excel at the tone they strive for.  In Mass Effect, I feel like a big gorram hero saving the galaxy.  Everything is suitably epic in scale, and I don't feel like I'm missing much due to a lack of graphic sex, conniving back-stabbing, and close to home philosophical gray areas.  Dragon Age by contrast is also great, getting a solid magical medieval tone while also asking some deep questions to your character, and letting you decide how your inquisitor responds (and thankfully not assigning a light/dark or paragon/renegade meter to decisions).  There is a good chunk of moral gray in Dragon Age, and it works.