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[dreamgazer]

Then Mc Tiernan's Predator and Die hard, or Verhoeven's Robocop and Starship troopers aren't mature, no?

The first two? Not really mature, no.

The second two? Yes, mature, but Verhoeven's all about symbolism and social commentary.

[angol fear]

It's different kind of maturity. The movies you listed are mature because the show elements that are deemed not suitable for kids. The questions raised, however, are not that mature and kids can relate to them just fine. 

 

Let's take Robocop : a film that criticizes the american society based on violence, money and image that make humanity disappears. Few people see it, and I really don't think that kid have a chance to see that. Starship troopers : a film that criticizes america (yes, again) and its politic of expansion, it shows the fascist aspect of america and Hollywood (the happy ending is a fake happy ending because it shows that fascism wins). Once again, most adult don't see that, I don't think kids will see that.

Predator and Die Hard are films that destroy the Hollywood way of writing. The irony in these two films are critic against hollywood. Very few people see that. You may say that it's interpretation but I'm not, that's really how they have made their films.

 

That's why I've chosen these films : their story give the illusion that it's made for teenagers while it's actually for people who really read and can understand the implicit. There's violence but that's not why it's adult movies. The violence is a real theme, in a teen movie, violence is entertainment. Mc Tiernan and Verhoeven have something to say.

[Vazgen]

Let's take Robocop : a film that criticizes the american society based on violence, money and image that make humanity disappears. Few people see it, and I really don't think that kid have a chance to see that. Starship troopers : a film that criticizes america (yes, again) and its politic of expansion, it shows the fascist aspect of america and Hollywood (the happy ending is a fake happy ending because it shows that fascism wins). Once again, most adult don't see that, I don't think kids will see that.

Predator and Die Hard are films that destroy the Hollywood way of writing. The irony in these two films are critic against hollywood. Very few people see that. You may say that it's interpretation but I'm not, that's really how they have made their films.

 

That's why I've chosen these films : their story give the illusion that it's made for teenagers while it's actually for people who really read and can understand the implicit. There's violence but that's not why it's adult movies. The violence is a real theme, in a teen movie, violence is entertainment. Mc Tiernan and Verhoeven have something to say.

That's the point, that most kids won't ever see that. These are great movies in my opinion, I like watching them over and over again. But most people, myself included, never think of Hollywood parody when watching Die Hard. Perhaps it has to do with how perceptive the viewers are. I have no trouble seeing Hollywood parody in, say, Naked Gun I was referring to the way most people perceive the film. If the director of a movie wants to convey a message, I think he should be clear enough for the majority of the viewers to understand it. If it isn't the case then the message does not have the desired impact.

My personal opinion is that everyone relates to a certain aspect of a movie, game or any art. One person might see a generic action movie in Die Hard, someone else - a Hollywood parody, another one - a Christmas tale for kids. And each of them will be right in some aspect. 

[angol fear]

There's no parody in Mc Tiernan's work, it's irony which is really different (it also explains why he has made "last action hero" and some details in Die Hard). Yes anyone can see some films as basic action movie but it doesn't mean that they are right. Some people think that 2001, a space odyssey is a meaningless film, they can think that, but they are wrong. When some people don't want to think, they won't think, even if they see a Jean-Luc Godard's film.

What I wanted to say is that making an explicit question isn't more mature than an implicit question and the most important thing isn't if the majority of people can see it (they usually don't see/read/understand), it's how the question is made, that's what will define the maturity of the form. The more implicit it is, the more adult it is (but that's not always true!).

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I've been a much happier person since i stopped following the news. It's the same as it was about 20 years ago anyway. Same news, different faces. Just more of it. I just keep track of local stuff I can actually do something about. The big stuff is run by big money and I can't compete with that.

 

So how does this relate to games and movies and stuff? We don't really need to be reminded of all this crap in games and movies. We're really sick of seeing it in our daily lives. We want an escape from it. Games, movies and entertainment like TV shows and sports are the escape. I try not to look too deep when I'm watching a movie like Die Hard. It's a great action movie. The good guy saves the day.

[Vazgen]

We have to agree to disagree on that notion. I don't believe that people who think that 2001, A Space Odyssey is a meaningless film are wrong. So long as they don't force their view on the others they are welcome to think what they want about the film and no one has the right to tell them that they are wrong. If the movie doesn't have anything that the viewer can relate to, an opinion of it being meaningless can form. If a person is not willing to engage into conversations about that film and keeps living in his bubble of denial, no one has the right to invade that bubble and tell him that he's wrong.

My PoV on the issue of maturity is this: if the game tries to raise mature questions it should be clear enough so the majority of the audience sees those questions. 

[Iakus]

I've been a much happier person since i stopped following the news. It's the same as it was about 20 years ago anyway. Same news, different faces. Just more of it. I just keep track of local stuff I can actually do something about. The big stuff is run by big money and I can't compete with that.

 

So how does this relate to games and movies and stuff? We don't really need to be reminded of all this crap in games and movies. We're really sick of seeing it in our daily lives. We want an escape from it. Games, movies and entertainment like TV shows and sports are the escape. I try not to look too deep when I'm watching a movie like Die Hard. It's a great action movie. The good guy saves the day.

So much this.

 

The first Die Hard is actually a holiday movie for my family.  Right alongside A Christmas Story and Guys and Dolls. 

 

Life sucks enough as it is.  This is supposed to be a game. 

[KaiserShep]

I've been a much happier person since i stopped following the news. It's the same as it was about 20 years ago anyway. Same news, different faces. Just more of it. I just keep track of local stuff I can actually do something about. The big stuff is run by big money and I can't compete with that.

So how does this relate to games and movies and stuff? We don't really need to be reminded of all this crap in games and movies. We're really sick of seeing it in our daily lives. We want an escape from it. Games, movies and entertainment like TV shows and sports are the escape. I try not to look too deep when I'm watching a movie like Die Hard. It's a great action movie. The good guy saves the day.

Escapism ftw. If I want reality I can ride the subway and wait for someone to pull the emergency brake. I lost interest in life lessons years ago. I already know everyone and their creditors are out to get us already.

[Linkenski]

Escapism ftw. If I want reality I can ride the subway and wait for someone to pull the emergency brake. I lost interest in life lessons years ago. I already know everyone and their creditors are out to get us already.

I mean of course, if you've seen it all and they're all just cliches to you at this point artistic statements and life lessons in literature and storytelling gets old, but I'll take any eye-openers I can. I think by far some of the best story-driven moments in gaming have contained life-lessons that made me think too.

 

That's not to say that I don't get chills when you get the re-aqure the Normandy in Mass Effect 2, or when you get to Skyhold in Inquisition though. It's all good, but I think the increased sophistication of (preferably) subtle social commentary or life-lessons are what make good stories memorable. The Last of Us is memorable because of what it says about human beings, not because it has the same overused and redone-to-death post-apocalypse scenario with zambies.

[KaiserShep]

The Last of Us is a great game, but it's one of those games I only ever really care to play once.

[Jorji Costava]

Escapism ftw. If I want reality I can ride the subway and wait for someone to pull the emergency brake. I lost interest in life lessons years ago. I already know everyone and their creditors are out to get us already.

 

Let a thousand flowers bloom, I say. The key, in my view, is to not subsist exclusively on a diet either of escapist fantasy or serious, Tarkovsky-esque meditations on the meaning of existence. The disconnect in Mass Effect happens from the perception that it quickly attempts to shift from the former to the latter in a very short space, like tacking the ending of 2001: A Space Odyssey onto The Avengers. The ending seemed desperate to reach for a Big Statement about Something Important in a way that had never been so overt previously in the series.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Exactly.

 

"How about 'Goodbye.'" and "Tell your friends we're coming for them. Never mind. I'll tell them myself."

 

is followed with a pseudo-philosophical bullsh*t ending mere seconds after you, in about 90% of games, just wasted The Illusive Man.

 

It was time to sit back and watch the Crucible fire and blow up the reapers with Admiral Anderson..... and leave the mass relays intact.... after seeing a few reapers die on Earth and various world..... fade to black and roll credits. Leave it open.

 

I'll even state that we didn't even need to know if Shepard survived. Then they could have left it open for post ending DLC... or not.

 

No philosophical BS. And you have to give only one ending in a series where the endings are canon.

[angol fear]

We have to agree to disagree on that notion. I don't believe that people who think that 2001, A Space Odyssey is a meaningless film are wrong. So long as they don't force their view on the others they are welcome to think what they want about the film and no one has the right to tell them that they are wrong. If the movie doesn't have anything that the viewer can relate to, an opinion of it being meaningless can form. If a person is not willing to engage into conversations about that film and keeps living in his bubble of denial, no one has the right to invade that bubble and tell him that he's wrong.

My PoV on the issue of maturity is this: if the game tries to raise mature questions it should be clear enough so the majority of the audience sees those questions. 

 

Yes, as long as people who consider "2001 = a meaningless film" think that their view is an opinion and don't force others to think like them, it's ok for me too. I'm talking about people who didn't understand something and force their view on others.

If you consider that the majority should have access to the intellectual aspect of something then you have to consider that the majority is intellectual, no?

 

I remember Orwell saying that if a reader can't understand, it's because the writer and the reader don't share the same knowledge, something like that. Jean-Luc Godard is one of the most intellectual director (he has changed the history of cinema on that point), but I don't think that the majority of people can understand his films, they will say "it's boring", "it's pseudo intellectual" etc...(that's what I've seen)

And if we take Cameron's Avatar, everyone see the question and the message. It's so explicitly said that even a child (=someone who can't read properly)  understands it. Is it a mature film? If it is, then Disney's Pocahontas is a mature film too.

 

I'm sorry to insist on that, but I've noticed that a lot of people consider the reception to be the central point. If they don't understand, it's because it's "badly written". That point of view is very egocentric. For me, the film / video game/ book etc... is the central point and we discover one, or maybe more, aspect of it. I consider that we can fail in our reading if we don't have the clue (lack of knowledge, for instance).

[ImaginaryMatter]

The Last of Us is a great game, but it's one of those games I only ever really care to play once.

 

I think it has a great story. And great game play (not to mention it's visually gorgeous). The problem with it as a game though is that those two elements constantly undercut each other. The story is diminished by the constant influx and large combat segments with dumb raiders who must live off edible contrivance. And the otherwise realism of the setting frequently makes the combat look silly.

 

Why I bring this up is that ME3 has some of the same issues. Shepard's PDST or whatever he was suffering with the dreams of duct kid are undermined by the need to have a bulk of the game consisting of hosing things down with bullets, a lot of those things being the constant reminder that is zombified humans; and dialogue options which shape the character according to the player's inputs (the player who could very easily be unaffected by the kid's death). I think a lot of the series' aspirations to talk about these 'maturer' subjects are undermined in such a way.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

And why the dreams with the duct kid? The player had no investment in the kid at all. That's what undermined the dreams. In reality they could have been cut because they were IMO a huge annoyance in the game. They were the writer beating me over the head with a sledge hammer "FEEL SAD NOW." It didn't work. They needed to kill a character with whom we and Shepard had some investment. Someone who really didn't matter to the story that much but with whom Shepard at least had some attachment. Someone like Anderson.

 

And the Best Seats in the House scene? Have it done with one of your squad. One that followed you up the beam somehow. For one you would be more invested. And it would be a great place to end.

[themikefest]

And why the dreams with the duct kid? The player had no investment in the kid at all. That's what undermined the dreams. In reality they could have been cut because they were IMO a huge annoyance in the game. They were the writer beating me over the head with a sledge hammer "FEEL SAD NOW." It didn't work. They needed to kill a character with whom we and Shepard had some investment. Someone who really didn't matter to the story that much but with whom Shepard at least had some attachment. Someone like Anderson.

 

And the Best Seats in the House scene? Have it done with one of your squad. One that followed you up the beam somehow. For one you would be more invested. And it would be a great place to end.

Had the trilogy shown more kids instead of the one in ME3, I might feel sad about the kid going boom. I would rather have a dream about the ones that have died up to that point or something else. Or as you say, removed completely from the game

 

I would rather have Samantha at my side, but that would be very hard to explain. If I had to choose to have a squadmate at my side from ME3, it would be Ashley. 

[Vazgen]

Kid's inclusion reminds me of Oren in Dragon Age Origins. Though you interacted more with Oren

[Statichands]

Yes because huge machines annihilating races and enslaving them to annihilate other races isn't dark. What a ******. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Yes because huge machines annihilating races and enslaving them to annihilate other races isn't dark. What a ******. 

 

The what was shown in ME2.  - Show, don't tell. That was dark. It mattered. The why wasn't explained until the last 5 minutes. Did that really matter?

 

For "Best seats in the House" I would have wanted Liara or Garrus, but would have been fine with James or Ashley. And have each character have their own special dialogue depending upon whether they were your LI or not.

[Iakus]

And why the dreams with the duct kid? The player had no investment in the kid at all. That's what undermined the dreams. In reality they could have been cut because they were IMO a huge annoyance in the game. They were the writer beating me over the head with a sledge hammer "FEEL SAD NOW." It didn't work. They needed to kill a character with whom we and Shepard had some investment. Someone who really didn't matter to the story that much but with whom Shepard at least had some attachment. Someone like Anderson.

 

"See this kid?  He's about to die.  That's sad

 

FEEL SAD DAMMIT!!!"

 

Yeah, not exactly Clementine.

 

 

And the Best Seats in the House scene? Have it done with one of your squad. One that followed you up the beam somehow. For one you would be more invested. And it would be a great place to end.

 

I'd be fine with it as it is if that was how the game ended.  Let the players decide what exactly happens after that.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I'd be fine with it as it is if that was how the game ended.  Let the players decide what exactly happens after that.

 

Like if Shepard is discovered in a timely manner and lives or dies from his wounds.

 

Trololololol!! 

[Massa FX]

I dunno. Those sex scenes in Inquisition vs sex scenes in ME1 and ME3.

 

None of them are all that hawt, IMO. But I can see where Mark says DAI is more mature. There's a lot of same sex options in DAI (more than ME3) and partial nudity.

 

The Iron Bull romance... LOL! 

 

... not that same sex relations automatically denote more mature content. 

[Iakus]

Like if Shepard is discovered in a timely manner and lives or dies from his wounds.

 

Trololololol!! 

 

Or whether Shepard is forced to commit genocide, slavery or eugenics to"save" the galaxy 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Or whether Shepard is forced to commit genocide, slavery or eugenics to"save" the galaxy 

 

Yeah but isn't that your thing, though (that the Breath Scene is bad expressly because the player is left to imagine Shepard's fate rather than clearly see him/her alive) -?

[Iakus]

It's a thing yes. Not the only thing though. Hell, not even the worst thing.