165 réponses à ce sujet

[Lady Nuggins]

I think its a little more balanced when you add in the advisors, which at times appear to assist you in the field at least Cullen and leliana. Advisors are not insubstatial NPCs, they are a group you can interact with much like a companion, you just can't put them into your party. In terms of interaction though they are not two bit characters.

 

There are 12 companions and Advisors 5 of which are women. I hardly think that is gross under representation.

 

Head Scout hardling is a second teir Npc that you have multiple interactins with and she is female.

 

I think you can narrow ones scope in DA:I to make an arguement of low female representation but its not an honest assessment of female representation over all.  Bioware has done a pretty good job of making strong, varied and complex female characters for DA:I. Any suggestion that they haven't is people not only making a mountain out of a mole hill but also disingenuous.

 

I swear sometimes people go out of their way to attack Bioware for being exclusionary in the very areas bioware has made a concerted effort to be inclusionary.

 

The advisers do alleviate the imbalance a bit, but it's still seven men to five women, with far more of the men being party members than women.  It means that there is only one possible group that you could take with you if you wanted an all-female party, whereas you could mix-and-match two entire sets of party members to have an all-male one.  On top of that, 4 of those 5 women are human, one is an elf, and all of them have the same perfect figure and gorgeous face.

 

You know, its funny, but I never thought of that. 

 

In ME 2, we had two aged, veteran soldiers:  one male and one female.  The male was scared, grotesque looking Zaeed.  The female was super sexified Samara.  Interesting.

 

Samara has to be the most jarring character design.  Ancient, wise, mystical warrior... with two water balloons barely strapped to her chest with a physically impossible scrap of fabric.  Oh, and let's have Donnelly crack jokes about Asari chest sizes growing with age, just to drive the point home. 

[UmbraMage82]

Like DaySeeker said, can we please drop the "I hate that all of the female characters are attractive" thing. Ladies, physical attraction plays as much as a role as personality does for both men and women. Just let it go and talk about the ACTUALLY topic.

 

I couldn't agree more with the OP. It's like Bioware is doing it on propose or something. Male side has all four races (heck even a spirit) and on the female side is all humans and one elf. Said female elf can not be romanced by male elves (I will NEVER get over that). I just want the next game to have more race and culture diversity instead of being so human centric. Just my opinion.

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

Bioware is a rare company that tends to go all out to listen to its fans and be inclusive and even THEN its still attacked.

[GreyWarden4Life]

The advisers do alleviate the imbalance a bit, but it's still seven men to five women, with far more of the men being party members than women.  It means that there is only one possible group that you could take with you if you wanted an all-female party, whereas you could mix-and-match two entire sets of party members to have an all-male one.  On top of that, 4 of those 5 women are human, one is an elf, and all of them have the same perfect figure and gorgeous face.

 

 

Samara has to be the most jarring character design.  Ancient, wise, mystical warrior... with two water balloons barely strapped to her chest with a physically impossible scrap of fabric.  Oh, and let's have Donnelly crack jokes about Asari chest sizes growing with age, just to drive the point home. 

 

But aren't we all just over thinking the whole gender thing? I mean yeah, there are more men than women seen, but the ratio of most likely to be this or this gender is more realistic. More men are tended to be in a role where there is fighting than women are. Look at our military in any nation. There's more men than women fighting. We also have to take into account the fact that all fiction is based of what we know of our reality of what is norm. Mind you, there are pieces of work that pull a 180 on you just to twist what we know, which is good, because it would be boring if it was all the same. However, since our human culture sets it up this way, we just see it as normal. This also can explain why many video games have male protagonists. Men are just more inclined to be in harms way, NOT only because of their gender, but just how we, as humans, set ourselves up as.

 

I mean, check up on our human ancestors throughout the ages. Men have always been the ones to be the vanguard in violence and war, so naturally it is normal to assume that males will be seen more often in war than females. You can argue about representation now, because we've grown up and have started treating everyone as equals, but we are talking about centuries of when it was men who fought our wars. So we grow up with that impression that there are more men represented than women.

 

Romanticizing war is another thing we humans tend to do. That's where we get these romance stories while battling for survival among other things/factors that go into play. With Mass Effect and Dragon Age it shows the same thing, but holding true to the basic fact that men put themselves in harms way more frequently. Woman can as well, but seeing as men have always thought of themselves as the protector of their family or loved ones--which is a good quality to have when your family is put in harms way--it's why most men see this as normal from when it comes to representing more males in military uniforms or roles. NOT based off the notion that woman can't do anything that a man can do, but just the frequency of putting their own lives at risk for the greater good and for their loved ones (Which is also the romanticizing of war in all media that involves it).

 

As long as both men and women are shown fighting together for the greater good and/or loved ones, despite what we see based on the gender ratio, then both genders are represented equally--not by the numbers-- but in the idea of taking up arms for the cause and stepping in harms way. Its the same idea as one person representing a nation, state, province, city, race, religion, and gender. Same for those posters that have one individual that represents something bigger than itself.

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

Historicaly men were seen as Expendable after all you only needed 1 to repopulate the tribe.

and we are a genderdimorphic species whith men tending to be physicaly stronger and women more dexterous.

that being said in staying the FU+K out of gender politics. im egalitarian and SJWs can suck it.

 

Can we talk about characters we would like to see?

[Celtic Latino]

In some ways BioWare is VERY progressive and forward when it comes to gender representation. Most of their protagonists and leading characters are women. Not to mention a great deal of the leadership are women (the Divines, Empress, potentially a female Warden or Anora, etc...). To me, its not so much about gender representation/amount so much more than it is rehashing the same kind of characters. 

 

Male party member composition is always diverse species-wise. In Mass Effect we could get krogan, drell, geth, salarians, in Dragon Age we get dwarves, qunari, etc.... 

 

Female party member composition is pretty much human majority with maybe one elf/alien or two. Mass Effect 1 and 3, as well as Awakening are notable exceptions. 

 

Of course, I do think they could rework some of the formulas they use in general. I praise them for inclusion, please understand that. Not once have I ever accused them of any type of 'ism', as I'm far from an SJW. But I have noticed there's a sense of 'stock' archetypes, which is fine because it works for them, but just diversify it for future games. They did good with the s/s female LI being the blonde, featuring a dark-skinned female LI available for men (Josephine), etc...heck they actually allow for a romanceable qunari! So there's some steps forward and I give credit where it is due. 

 

As for attractiveness, for me I have no complaints with attractive characters of either gender. Cullen and Dorian are very attractive male characters. Some people find Blackwall, Solas, Varric, and Iron Bull attractive. Josephine and Vivienne are conventionally attractive female characters. Sera is more in-between ('cute'), though I'm sure some love her look and others don't. Cassandra is not conventionally attractive (to me, at least). Most Bio-games have had humans with varying levels of attractiveness. Carth and Bastila were conventionally attractive, all three LIs in Jade Empire were made to be good looking (Sky, Silk Fox, Dawn Star), Mass Effect's crew wasn't ugly (well, most. Zaeed is a notable exception). For me my point is I'd like to see more females from the 'gritty, weird, alien, traditionally used as male races' such as qunari and dwarves, like a dwarven warrior or qunari huntress. Heck I wouldn't mind if the next bromance character in the likes of Garrus or Varric were female.  

[Celtic Latino]

But let's go back to the topic at hand. Female non-human party members for DA4 and other future titles. 

 

We've seen a qunari huntress, elven female berserker and dwarven lady warrior suggested. What else would you guys like to see? Maybe formulating more ideas as opposed to debates might give way for inspiration to the devs/writers. 

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

Exactly.

hmm Female Sword and shield dwarf?

Heck Human or Elven Kid.

[Lady Nuggins]

Like DaySeeker said, can we please drop the "I hate that all of the female characters are attractive" thing. Ladies, physical attraction plays as much as a role as personality does for both men and women. Just let it go and talk about the ACTUALLY topic.

 

I couldn't agree more with the OP. It's like Bioware is doing it on propose or something. Male side has all four races (heck even a spirit) and on the female side is all humans and one elf. Said female elf can not be romanced by male elves (I will NEVER get over that). I just want the next game to have more race and culture diversity instead of being so human centric. Just my opinion.

 

But you can't really talk about the lack of diversity of females in non-human races without bringing up the attractive factor, because it's clear that is why we never see more non-human women.  Women can't be giant scarred monsters because women have to be pretty.  It's not that prettiness is a problem, it's that it's limiting when that is all a female character can be.

 

 

But aren't we all just over thinking the whole gender thing? I mean yeah, there are more men than women seen, but the ratio of most likely to be this or this gender is more realistic. 

 

I don't need realism that badly in a game where you can shoot fire from your hands.

[GreyWarden4Life]

In some ways BioWare is VERY progressive and forward when it comes to gender representation. Most of their protagonists and leading characters are women. Not to mention a great deal of the leadership are women (the Divines, Empress, potentially a female Warden or Anora, etc...). To me, its not so much about gender representation/amount so much more than it is rehashing the same kind of characters. 

 

Male party member composition is always diverse species-wise. In Mass Effect we could get krogan, drell, geth, salarians, in Dragon Age we get dwarves, qunari, etc.... 

 

Female party member composition is pretty much human majority with maybe one elf/alien or two. Mass Effect 1 and 3, as well as Awakening are notable exceptions. 

 

Of course, I do think they could rework some of the formulas they use in general. I praise them for inclusion, please understand that. Not once have I ever accused them of any type of 'ism', as I'm far from an SJW. But I have noticed there's a sense of 'stock' archetypes, which is fine because it works for them, but just diversify it for future games. They did good with the s/s female LI being the blonde, featuring a dark-skinned female LI available for men (Josephine), etc...heck they actually allow for a romanceable qunari! So there's some steps forward and I give credit where it is due. 

 

As for attractiveness, for me I have no complaints with attractive characters of either gender. Cullen and Dorian are very attractive male characters. Some people find Blackwall, Solas, Varric, and Iron Bull attractive. Josephine and Vivienne are conventionally attractive female characters. Sera is more in-between ('cute'), though I'm sure some love her look and others don't. Cassandra is not conventionally attractive (to me, at least). Most Bio-games have had humans with varying levels of attractiveness. Carth and Bastila were conventionally attractive, all three LIs in Jade Empire were made to be good looking (Sky, Silk Fox, Dawn Star), Mass Effect's crew wasn't ugly (well, most. Zaeed is a notable exception). For me my point is I'd like to see more females from the 'gritty, weird, alien, traditionally used as male races' such as qunari and dwarves, like a dwarven warrior or qunari huntress. Heck I wouldn't mind if the next bromance character in the likes of Garrus or Varric were female.  

 

Wait, Josephine can be romanced?! From all the articles and videos I've seen, she was never mentioned as a possible love interest despite being a companion.

[KaiserShep]

Wait, Josephine can be romanced?! From all the articles and videos I've seen, she was never mentioned as a possible love interest despite being a companion.

 

Yep. It was confirmed that she is a bisexual romance option.

[Celtic Latino]

Wait, Josephine can be romanced?! From all the articles and videos I've seen, she was never mentioned as a possible love interest despite being a companion.

She can be romanced by a PC of either gender and any race. 

 

 

But you can't really talk about the lack of diversity of females in non-human races without bringing up the attractive factor, because it's clear that is why we never see more non-human women.  Women can't be giant scarred monsters because women have to be pretty.  It's not that prettiness is a problem, it's that it's limiting when that is all a female character can be.

 

 

 

I don't need realism that badly in a game where you can shoot fire from your hands.

I have to agree with this, which drives home the point of the thread. You have raptor-bird hybrids (Garrus), reptilian hunchbacks (Wrex/Grunt) and amphibian-like creatures (Mordin) with no problem, but the available females either fit the green-skinned alien space babe (Liara/Samara), are implied to be human-like, especially in ME3 (Tali), and then there's EDI. In DA, you have short, stubby dwarves (Oghren, Varric), hulking warriors (Sten, Iron Bull) but the bulk of the ladies are humans of varying degrees. Mind you I LOVE the asari, Tali and yes even EDI (I found the design cool). I give credit to the inclusion of Wynne (she may be human but she was old and wizened), Shayle, Nyreen, and Sigrun, but note all of them are DLC and may not be experienced by all. So I can see what's being said. 

[GreyWarden4Life]

But you can't really talk about the lack of diversity of females in non-human races without bringing up the attractive factor, because it's clear that is why we never see more non-human women.  Women can't be giant scarred monsters because women have to be pretty.  It's not that prettiness is a problem, it's that it's limiting when that is all a female character can be.

 

 

 

I don't need realism that badly in a game where you can shoot fire from your hands.

 

The whole "looks" factor goes into play of romanticizing things in some form or another. Movies, novels, and even video games. Attractive people are just that. They are people that attract others. Movie stars, pop stars, athletes, Heroes and Heroines. Looks and personality are always played hand in hand, but you really can't know their personality by just looking at a picture, which is why looks play a huge factor in selling merchandise.  

[GreyWarden4Life]

She can be romanced by a PC of either gender and any race. 

 

 

I have to agree with this, which drives home the point of the thread. You have raptor-bird hybrids (Garrus), reptilian hunchbacks (Wrex/Grunt) and amphibian-like creatures (Mordin) with no problem, but the available females either fit the green-skinned alien space babe (Liara/Samara), are implied to be human-like, especially in ME3 (Tali), and then there's EDI. In DA, you have short, stubby dwarves (Oghren, Varric), hulking warriors (Sten, Iron Bull) but the bulk of the ladies are humans of varying degrees. Mind you I LOVE the asari, Tali and yes even EDI (I found the design cool). I give credit to the inclusion of Wynne (she may be human but she was old and wizened), Shayle, Nyreen, and Sigrun, but note all of them are DLC and may not be experienced by all. So I can see what's being said. 

 

This should be interesting seeing as I'm going to play as a male Qunari. As we all know Qunari and Mages are worse off than Templars and Mages. lol 

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

Women can be huge scarred monsters thats part of my Elves look. but half the time those are used the company could get hate mail. i recal Bungie getting this for Kat.

I agree that the Glam factor needs to be taken into account.

 

anyhoo i still say i want a kid.

[GreyWarden4Life]

Historicaly men were seen as Expendable after all you only needed 1 to repopulate the tribe.

and we are a genderdimorphic species whith men tending to be physicaly stronger and women more dexterous.

that being said in staying the FU+K out of gender politics. im egalitarian and SJWs can suck it.

 

Can we talk about characters we would like to see?

I really can't argue with that. lol 

[GreyWarden4Life]

Women can be huge scarred monsters thats part of my Elves look. but half the time those are used the company could get hate mail. i recal Bungie getting this for Kat.

I agree that the Glam factor needs to be taken into account.

 

anyhoo i still say i want a kid.

From the character creation videos, you can make some pretty ugly characters. 

[Celtic Latino]

Women can be huge scarred monsters thats part of my Elves look. but half the time those are used the company could get hate mail.

 

anyhoo i still say i want a kid.

That's a whole different can of worms to be opened. Silk Flower, Cole (mentally), and Mission were kids. Personally I don't like the idea of underage characters engaging in combat and most of the time, just come off as a real pain in the neck story-wise (remembers FFXIII and Hope/Vanille. Ugh!). The kid characters can stay with the jrpgs in my opinion. 

 

As for your dwarven sns warrior, I think DAI is bringing back the idea of speccing companions to whichever weapon style you prefer them to have. I would like for her to be a conventional blonde personally. Perhaps seasoned in battle, sassy and a bit sarcastic, a great sense of humor, and it would be nice to have someone that isn't the light skinned, dark-haired female with a bossy/alpha persona (Cassandra, Bastila, Morrigan, Miranda, etc...). 

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

yep mah chick is going to have battle scars.

I still say id like to see it used for a Rogue(Yeah been done to death.) but a Mage could work. or even a Squire.

[Celtic Latino]

I'd also love to see a Qunari agent of the Qun (optionally joins, not as a mercenary but as someone who has leads to the qunari. Since the next game could be in the Tevinter/Qunari conflict, she actually makes sense). Completely non-romanceable (doesn't return affections, since she adheres to the Qun she doesn't believe or understand romantic sentiments). Would look cool with a mohawk or short hairstyle that screams 'functional'. Little or no makeup aside from the qunari face paint used (won't comment on attractiveness because someone will inevitably find her attractive). Conceived as an archer but can use dual daggers and focuses on traps and poisons. 

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

1 word Golem.

Full sized upgradeable Golem. that can be updayed whith new materials.

[Eudaemonium]

Just come off as a real pain in the neck story-wise (remembers FFXIII and Hope/Vanille. Ugh!). The kid characters can stay with the jrpgs in my opinion. 

 

Vanille wasn't actually underage. (Well, she was like 17, but in JRPG terms 17 is practically middle aged). Hope was like 13 or something, though. Both were horribly annoying.

 

The advisers do alleviate the imbalance a bit, but it's still seven men to five women, with far more of the men being party members than women.  It means that there is only one possible group that you could take with you if you wanted an all-female party, whereas you could mix-and-match two entire sets of party members to have an all-male one. 

 

Vaguely related, but it was because of this that I was happy that the romance options also have an imbalance. The party is a 7/5 split, but the romances are a 5/3 split, which seems fair relatively speaking.

 

That isn't getting around the 'all women must be attractive' issue, which is a massive problem. Heck, we're lucky that Cassandra actually has visible scars in that respect. Part of me really wonders, though, what BioWare might have done with Garrus if Turians had been masked in ME1. If you compare Tali's original concept design with the photoshopped stock photo of ME3 she became noticeably more human in appearance 9though obviously she never came close to the weird insect-reptile thing Garrus had going on). I just wonder if the Turians had been masked whether Garrus would have ended up more human when his face was finally 'revealed'.

[Celtic Latino]

Vanille wasn't actually underage. (Well, she was like 17, but in JRPG terms 17 is practically middle aged). Hope was like 13 or something, though. Both were horribly annoying.

 

 

Vaguely related, but it was because of this that I was happy that the romance options also have an imbalance. The party is a 7/5 split, but the romances are a 5/3 split, which seems fair relatively speaking.

 

That isn't getting around the 'all women must be attractive' issue, which is a massive problem. Heck, we're lucky that Cassandra actually has visible scars in that respect. Part of me really wonders, though, what BioWare might have done with Garrus if Turians had been masked in ME1. If you compare Tali's original concept design with the photoshopped stock photo of ME3 she became noticeably more human in appearance 9though obviously she never came close to the weird insect-reptile thing Garrus had going on). I just wonder if the Turians had been masked whether Garrus would have ended up more human when his face was finally 'revealed'.

 

Probably not as male characters tend to enjoy more freedom in the design department. Wrex/Grunt, Mordin, Legion, actually let's include the Volus and Elcor in there too, tend not to be bound by the problem of being 'weird/alien'. Women are either human or one of the 'space-babe' races (Twi'lek, Elves, Asari, etc...), or at least something very human (Zabrak, Cathar, Miraluka, even the Quarians were given a sort of human appearance, or at least implied that way in ME3. Not that there's anything wrong with having female near-human or space-babe, as something is better than nothing, but its more about enjoying that same freedom design male characters generally get 'for granted'. Think of Guardians of the Galaxy and compare Gamora and Groot. What if it were Gamoro and Groota? Rarely would you see such a formula (not counting the 'one female per team' trope that's probably more concerning). 

 

In fact I think Tali was originally designed as being extremely alien/non-human, but then once the devs caved in to making her romanceable, in the end they wanted to go with something conventionally attractive so they did a sci-fi photoshop of a stock human female portrait. 

 

Side/off-topic note- Yeah 17 is middle aged and 21-24 is elderly in jrpg terms. Never understood the Japanese fascination with youth and giving characters in their mid-twenties the looks and mentality of someone in their forties or fifties. But that's for another thread. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Wait, Josephine can be romanced?! From all the articles and videos I've seen, she was never mentioned as a possible love interest despite being a companion.

Yes, Josephine is a bisexual, non-racegated romance. 

She isn't a companion though. I think you are thinking of Vivienne, who is a companion but not romancable. 

 

 

Side/off-topic note- Yeah 17 is middle aged and 21-24 is elderly in jrpg terms. Never understood the Japanese fascination with youth and giving characters in their mid-twenties the looks and mentality of someone in their forties or fifties. But that's for another thread. 

It's not just Japan. That age range is the most common age range in fiction across the globe. It's because that age range is perfect for the coming of age plots. 

Plus since Dragon Age is in a medieval era, that age range is acceptable since teenagers were considered adults in those days on Earth and thus wouldn't be out of place for Thedas. 

[Umbar]

The whole 'attractiveness' argument is baffling to me, since I find pretty much all the women in DA and ME attractive. That includes Urdnot Bakara, that Salarian dalatrass, Nyreen Kandros, DA:O dwarves and DA2 Elves and yes, Cassandra, Sera and Josephine. Anyway...

 

I'm fully for this proposition. Sigrun is one of my favourite DA characters and I would love to see more Dwarf companions. After Iron Bull, the next game - especially if it deals with the Qunari - should have female Qunari as companions. I am glad we have playable female Qunari Inquisitors. That's definitely the first step.

 

My ideas: Dwarf Rogue - Alchemist, Elf Warrior - Champion/Reaver, Qunari (not Tal-Vashoth, at least at first) Saarebas - Necromancer.